The Irish language is failing.

Gael Mire

Shep_Dog wrote: »

We don't need to speak Irish to have a culture.

We already have a culture.

Culture is defined by the people, not by a self-appointed group of cultural commisars.

Of course we don't, there are plenty of countries out there with a wonderful culture without a word of Irish.

If we don't have Irish however, the claim that our culture is Irish would be somewhat of a threadbare sham in my opinion.

Paramite Pie

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Then why don't they just learn language X first instead of Irish to "help" them learn language X?

Because we don't have enough teachers for those languages to cover every primary school? Did you miss the part where I mentioned practicality? You already had the answer to that question. In Ireland there's a steady supply of Irish teachers. They should just be trained and retrained every summer to teach all subjects better (since we're already paying them).

Usually in these threads someone mentions how we should all be learning Chinese instead of Irish because that's the economy of the future. Imagined if we listened to them and spent millions importing Chinese teachers and encouraging that language and then their economy tanks -- which it did.

Since it's just as effective to use any language anyways and we already have the resources/frameworks in place to teach Irish, we may as well make that work more effectively. It's more cost effective. If we can't get that working, we damn well wont get other languages taught either.

Shep_Dog

Gael Mire wrote: »

If we don't have Irish however, the claim that our culture is Irish would be somewhat of a threadbare sham in my opinion.

Your opinion demonstrates that you have no respect for our culture as it is now.

The Irish language is not a part of many of our most famous and popular cultural achievements. Irish speaking by language enthusiasts is just one thread in the rich tapestry of Irish culture.

True, some of our culture is expressed in the Irish language, but this is not a justification for wanting to make everyone speak Irish.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

You will need to get yourself back to playschool and get yourself an education. Irish not indigenous to Ireland? Come on, did you type that with a straight face?

Of all the nonsense you have come out with on this thread, that is right up there with the best.

It seems to be your usual debating tactic to just call a post nonsense a few times, throw in an insult or two, and not make even a passing attempt at refuting it.
In what way is Irish indigenous where English and French are not? You can't answer so it's "nonsense" time again I guess!

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Of course we don't, there are plenty of countries out there with a wonderful culture without a word of Irish.

If we don't have Irish however, the claim that our culture is Irish would be somewhat of a threadbare sham in my opinion.

But we already have an Irish culture where close to 99% of people don't speak Irish. Do you want to tell these people they aren't Irish at all and who put you in charge anyway?

Dan_Solo

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Because we don't have enough teachers for those languages to cover every primary school? Did you miss the part where I mentioned practicality? You already had the answer to that question. In Ireland there's a steady supply of Irish teachers. They should just be trained and retrained every summer to teach all subjects better (since we're already paying them).

Well you're the first Irish enforcer to tell us we have sufficient well trained Irish teachers, I'll give you that.
Why bother ever hiring more? You still seem insistent that learning Irish then language X is a more efficient use of state and pupil resources than just learning language X in the first place.Why not immediately/gradually switch to language X teaching because there's at least a minuscule chance it'll be useful. Unlike Irish.

JCX BXC

Do people not realise that Irish isn't completely out culture, yet it's not irrelevant either.

Irish is infact a big part in our culture.
You can't deny that.

Shep_Dog

Carnacalla wrote: »

Do people not realise that Irish isn't completely out culture, yet it's not irrelevant either.
Irish is infact a big part in our culture.
You can't deny that.

Of course Irish is not completely out of our culture. Let's have sense of proportion. It's quite small compared to the English-speaking culture of this country. Our most famous plays, films, art, literature, music and dance all come from the English side of the national psyche.

Much of what passes for traditional Irish culture is a mix of the authentic, plus foreign influences and the revisionism of the 'Gaelic Revival'. It's a pastiche.

Just because some people like speaking Irish, it's not a good enough reason to make others speak it too.

Dan_Solo

Carnacalla wrote: »

Do people not realise that Irish isn't completely out culture, yet it's not irrelevant either.

Irish is infact a big part in our culture.
You can't deny that.

I could list 100s of things that are culturally "Irish" but people do more often than they speak Irish. So these should all be mandatory in school by your reasoning.
Plus, nobody has answered why Hiberno-Celtic culture is the only culture of this island that needs to be forcefully re-enacted. Is anyone even willing to admit that the Celts weren't the original occupants of Ireland at all?

whisky_galore

fear le solas wrote: »

If your attitude is that we are forced to learn Irish, I take it your parents were forced too. Hence the negativity towards it continues... Remember what I said earlier about taking responsibility to break the cycle?

Remember,at one stage we were forced to NOT to speak it and this is one of the reasons I believe it will never truly die, as true Irishmen will not let this happen. The survival of our heritage and culture is surely enough of an objective?

Look at America. If you left a joghurt out for 500 years it would have more culture.

True Irishmen? This is what p*sses off so many people here, the 'holier than thou' attitude of what (I sincerely hope) are a minority that is the GaelTaliban, that somehow one cannot be a worthy inhabitant of this island unless you speak Irish.

Those who assume America is something a cultureless black hole go no further than the Maccy D/Starbucks/Budweiser image of the US. America is so much more than that if you care to educate yourself.

Gael Mire

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Your opinion demonstrates that you have no respect for our culture as it is now.

The Irish language is not a part of many of our most famous and popular cultural achievements. Irish speaking by language enthusiasts is just one thread in the rich tapestry of Irish culture.

True, some of our culture is expressed in the Irish language, but this is not a justification for wanting to make everyone speak Irish.

Your opinion, in mine, the desire to see the Irish language extinguished from existence demonstrates that those people have no respect for our culture as it is now, in which the Irish language plays an important role.

ancapailldorcha

Gael Mire wrote: »

Your opinion, in mine, the desire to see the Irish language extinguished from existence demonstrates that those people have no respect for our culture as it is now, in which the Irish language plays an important role.

Please explain in detail this important role.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It seems to be your usual debating tactic to just call a post nonsense a few times, throw in an insult or two, and not make even a passing attempt at refuting it.
In what way is Irish indigenous where English and French are not? You can't answer so it's "nonsense" time again I guess!

Well, its largely to do with the meaning of the word indigenous, and your incorrect use of it.
Irish is indigenous to Ireland. English and French are not.

Reiver

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They're not irrelevant in a discussion about reviving Irish culture. Unless you are denying they were part of Irish culture? Or that there is currently an attempt to revive the Irish language which was (yes almost entirely was) part of Irish culture.
Tell me why it is irrelevant. I think the word you're struggling for is "inconvenient".

Slavery was pretty much a part of every culture, including that of the Anglosphere up till the 19th century. So...not buying it.

By the arguments I'm reading on this thread, the Sami in Scandinavia should just ditch their language and speak Norwegian/Swedish since it's more useful.
Talking about changing from language x to y is balls as well. We're one of the worst nations in Europe for learning languages.

berds

i wonder what the people who made it their job to rid ireland of irish would think in the modern day watching it be shunned by irish people. i dont speak irish but it makes me wonder.

I also want to note that I can type with decent grammar if I want, I'm just not bothered

Gael Mire

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Please explain in detail this important role.

The Irish language is part of the common heritage of all Irish people. The history and life of our nation, which was lived and written in Irish for so long, and continues to be lived and written in Irish by part of our people today, has been and is an important source of inspiration for our writers, poets and composers working both in Irish and in English.

The important role of the Irish language in the works created in Irish since the revival hardly needs to be explained. The works of Ó Conaire and Ó Cadhain to Ní Domhnaill and Mhac an tSaoi, conceived and created in Irish obviously have the Irish language as an important influence.

But the Irish language has also played an important role in the development of works in the English language. The revival or Irish at the end of the 19th century was interwoven with the anglo-Irish literary revival in the same period. Yeats was particularly inspired by materials translated from Irish, both from the manuscript tradition of writings in Irish going back centuries and the works in Irish by his own contemporaries.

Irish has been and is an important source and inspiration for writers in English. This quote from Seamus Heaney nicely sums up what I mean.

Not to learn Irish is to miss the opportunity of understanding what life in this country has meant and could mean in a better future. It is to cut oneself off from ways of being at home. If we regard self-understanding, mutual understanding, imaginative enhancement, cultural diversity and a tolerant political atmosphere as desirable attainments, we should remember that a knowledge of the Irish language is an essential element in their realisation.

-Seamus Heaney

Barely There

Gael Mire wrote: »

Irish has been and is an important source and inspiration for writers in English. This quote from Seamus Heaney nicely sums up what I mean.

Jesus! - that quote by Heaney is pure gibberish.

Gael Mire

Barely There wrote: »

Jesus! - that quote by Heaney is pure gibberish.

To you perhaps, but dare I say, you have not contributed much to the cultural life of Ireland. Heaney did, and the Irish language was in important inspiration for his work. That's the point.

Barely There

Gael Mire wrote: »

To you perhaps, but dare I say, you have not contributed much to the cultural life of Ireland. Heaney did, and the Irish language was in important inspiration for his work. That's the point.

Maybe you should read the quote again - that's not what he's saying

ancapailldorcha

Gael Mire wrote: »

...

This is just vague ideation. I was asking you to detail the role the language plays in today's Ireland.

Gael Mire

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is just vague ideation. I was asking you to detail the role the language plays in today's Ireland.

Ah, I see, you pick out a point in one of my posts and challenge me to give more detail, I do so and you say 'nope, not good enough' and move the goalposts.
Sorry, I'm not playing this game.

Barely There

Gael Mire wrote: »

To you perhaps, but dare I say, you have not contributed much to the cultural life of Ireland. Heaney did, and the Irish language was in important inspiration for his work. That's the point.

Barely There wrote: »

Maybe you should read the quote again - that's not what he's saying

I think I'll have to help you out with understanding the quote you posted yourself.

Heaney claims that knowledge of the Irish language is essential, not useful or desirable mind, essential to attaining self-understanding, mutual understanding, imaginative enhancement, cultural diversity and a tolerant political atmosphere.

So you can't possibly hope to attain any of these traits unless you also speak and understand Irish.

I'm sure even you will agree the sentiments are pompous, overwrought, elitist nonsense - or in layman's terms, complete and utter bollox.

ancapailldorcha

Gael Mire wrote: »

Ah, I see, you pick out a point in one of my posts and challenge me to give more detail, I do so and you say 'nope, not good enough' and move the goalposts.
Sorry, I'm not playing this game.

I'll take that to mean you have nothing then.

Shep_Dog

Gael Mire wrote: »

Your opinion, in mine, the desire to see the Irish language extinguished from existence demonstrates that those people have no respect for our culture as it is now, in which the Irish language plays an important role.

I have never expressed any desire to see the Irish language extinguished from existence. I do have a concern that this is what will happen if Irish speaking continues to be promoted in the same agressive and uncompromising way it has been for the past 80 years.

Your assertion that Irish plays an important role in our culture simply ignores facts. It is no more than empty rhetoric. It is this self-delusion that blinds the Irish enthusiasts to the harm they are causing to the Irish language.

dr.fuzzenstein

Gael Mire wrote: »

Your opinion, in mine, the desire to see the Irish language extinguished from existence demonstrates that those people have no respect for our culture as it is now, in which the Irish language plays an important role.

Myself and most others wouldn't want to see it gone, but to have it compulsory right up to leaving cert and a mandatory requirement for public jobs (if that is still the case) is just idiotic.
Let's look at Shakespeare again.
Pupils are being taught Shakespeare, but it is a small part of the overall curriculum. Also it is not a subject in itself. A pupil's entire future career does not depend on being able to recite his entire works from memory.
It always comes back to flint knapping.

People are not automatically west Brits just because they will not start every conversation with anyone regardless of where they are or where the other person is from in Irish.

Or maybe not only should one always speak Irish, but also every sentence one utters should be about the language question.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Well, its largely to do with the meaning of the word indigenous, and your incorrect use of it.
Irish is indigenous to Ireland. English and French are not.

English and French have been spoken in Ireland for 1000 years. You don't consider 1000 years to be sufficient duration to make a language indigenous? Let me guess, 2000 years, about when Irish replaced the truly indigenous Mesolithic culture, is of course enough?

Dan_Solo

Reiver wrote: »

Slavery was pretty much a part of every culture, including that of the Anglosphere up till the 19th century. So...not buying it.

Oh I see, so only aspects of historical Irish culture, orginating from between 0AD an 1000AD, that are unique to Irish culture, should be forcefully re-enacted in our school system?

Reiver wrote: »

By the arguments I'm reading on this thread, the Sami in Scandinavia should just ditch their language and speak Norwegian/Swedish since it's more useful.
Talking about changing from language x to y is balls as well. We're one of the worst nations in Europe for learning languages.

Who said they should ditch "their" language? That's up to the individual.
Now, once more, why should a pitifully minority language be compulsory in any country?

Reiver

Dan_Solo wrote: »

English and French have been spoken in Ireland for 1000 years. You don't consider 1000 years to be sufficient duration to make a language indigenous? Let me guess, 2000 years, about when Irish replaced the truly indigenous Mesolithic culture, is of course enough?

English nope. You'd have been more likely to hear Norse then and confined to the cities.

Latin yes, French no. The strand of Norman French wouldn't arrive after 1169 when they landed in Leinster.

Dan_Solo

Reiver wrote: »

English nope. You'd have been more likely to hear Norse then and confined to the cities.

Latin yes, French no. The strand of Norman French wouldn't arrive after 1169 when they landed in Leinster.

Thanks for the excrutiatingly irrelevant historical detail.
So French spoke here since 1169... time to call in the Gailgeban style historical re-enactment brigade? It's indigenous, right? Or Norse, apparently it was here 1,000 years ago?
You never did answer why we shouldn't revive Irish Mesolithic culture, our true heritage before the imperialist Celtic scourge eradicated our beautiful common culture.

Reiver

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Thanks for the excrutiatingly irrelevant historical detail.
So French spoke here since 1169... time to call in the Gailgeban style historical re-enactment brigade? It's indigenous, right?
You never did answer why we shouldn't revive Irish Mesolithic culture, our true heritage before the imperialist Celtic scourge eradicated our beautiful common culture.

Irrelevant? You brought it up, just correcting your false information. Why would Normans speak English? Most of the original settlers were Marcher lords from Wales, their soldiers have been speaking Flemish or Welsh more like.

As regards your continued use of indigenous..

Sorry lad, I didn't see your response when I was writing the other one, here it is now.

Well I'm not an archaeologist or a specialist in that period but I would wager that the fact they weren't mad on writing or that we only have a fragmentary idea of what their culture actually was, it would be pretty impossible to. It might have been beautiful but maybe not too. If the Book of Invasions is true , then they might not have been very nice people.