Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

Tox56 · 01-09-2015 11:33AM

phog wrote: »

As a squad we've come a long way but with regards to the bolded bit we are in our hole in a golden age unless you mean the age of Boss and Reddan.

Im pretty sure his point is that it only seems so terrible because the rest of our squad is, by our standards at least, excellent, the best we've ever had in terms of quality and depth.

Our 5th choice backrower is Murphy who stepped in seamlessly at no. 8 against England in the six nations, and we're leaving players like Ruddock and TOD at home. If you compare the scrumhalf situation to that, it looks pretty dire. But if you compare the scrumhalf situation against Ireland squads of the past, we're not doing that badly. Its just the reality that we're a small country and the type of depth we currently have in the backrow/back 3 cant be repeated everywhere.

phog · 01-09-2015 11:35AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A comparative golden age. Comparative!

thomond2006 wrote: »

He said comparative tbf.

Edit: Damn you IBF...

He did, comparative to early professional era or to international squads?

If people are happy with Boss being 3rd best scrumhalf then so be it.

I'm not.

Let's leave it there.

thomond2006 · 01-09-2015 11:37AM

phog wrote: »

He did, comparative to early professional era or to international squads?

If people are happy with Boss being 3rd best scrumhalf then so be it.

I'm not.

Let's leave it there.

Comparative to earlier Ireland RWC squads.

I think 2015 Murray-Reddan-Boss as a fit trio is marginally better than Murray-Reddan-Boss of 2011, given how much Murray has improved in 4 years.

I'm not happy with Boss being 3rd best 9 and ideally Marmion or Hart would have gotten (more) opportunities but it is what it is and unless injury strikes it's not going to matter a jot.

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 11:45AM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Disagree..

A tight-head can typically play loose head without much difficulty in terms of scrummaging. The pressures are greatly reduced on the LH side compared to TH so it's actually quite easy..TBH moving from Right to Left in the scrum is actually like a little holiday!!

Tight-heads are almost universally larger , squarer and less mobile than L/H's- It's the nature of the position..

However with a T/H on the L/H side that typically means you give up a ball-carrier and a fair degree of mobility. That's perfectly fine for Bench cover..just not for starting bigger games..

If you think of the modern props out there - All the mobile ball-carrying ones are Loose-heads ..I struggle to name a T/H that has a reputation for mobility and/or ball carrying..

They are all loose-heads - Healy , Marler , Jenkins, Debaty , Mtawarira etc.

Italy's stalwart Tight Head prop, Martin Castrogiovanni, is an excellent ball-carrier in the loose.

01-09-2015 11:46AM

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/2015/0901/724875-ireland-rwc-squad/

lol

Perhaps the most unlucky player in the extended squad, Kilcoyne is a wonderfully complete player that – like Healy – runs at defences like a barrel-chested, wild baboon.

total former · 01-09-2015 11:50AM

phog wrote: »

He did, comparative to early professional era or to international squads?

Ummm, was it not obvious from the comparison with the 1999 and 2003 squads?

pickarooney · 01-09-2015 11:51AM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Disagree..

A tight-head can typically play loose head without much difficulty in terms of scrummaging. The pressures are greatly reduced on the LH side compared to TH so it's actually quite easy..TBH moving from Right to Left in the scrum is actually like a little holiday!!

Tight-heads are almost universally larger , squarer and less mobile than L/H's- It's the nature of the position..

However with a T/H on the L/H side that typically means you give up a ball-carrier and a fair degree of mobility. That's perfectly fine for Bench cover..just not for starting bigger games..

If you think of the modern props out there - All the mobile ball-carrying ones are Loose-heads ..I struggle to name a T/H that has a reputation for mobility and/or ball carrying..

They are all loose-heads - Healy , Marler , Jenkins, Debaty , Mtawarira etc.

WP Nel

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 11:52AM

Buer wrote: »

It doesn't void it. If anything, it strengthens it. Tony Buckley was deemed the best tighthead able to cover loosehead. If tightheads could easily do it, they'd have put anyone there ahead of him. That was the best we could do.

The majority of Jenkins' early caps were at tighthead. He only fully became a loosehead the season of his first Lions tour.

Nit-picking here, but is it not the case that once he switched positions he never played tighthead again?
I think there's a place for a prop in a RWC squad that can switch over and back if needs be.

Buer · 01-09-2015 11:58AM

smiley_face wrote: »

Nit-picking here, but is it not the case that once he switched positions he never played tighthead again?
I think there's a place for a prop in a RWC squad that can switch over and back if needs be.

Who? Jenkins? He played a couple of his first 10-15 caps at loosehead but most at tight which he kept returning to. He was a tighthead in the 2003 RWC and regularly moved between the two positions for Cardiff and Bridgend in his first few seasons as a pro.

It was the emergence of Adam Jones in the 2005 6N that saw him move to loosehead permanently.

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 12:12PM

It's a point though, that the provinces don't really try to produce a player that can cover 9 and 10, or a player that can cover 1 and 2.
If the provinces were given a directive to promote the production of those types of players we would have better options for future world cups.
The provinces would have to train players and most importantly give them a rotation in competitive matches.
I think 1 and 2 are a bit closer to each other than 3 in terms of physical size, and the 9 and 10 are similar in kicking and passing skills,
and the modern 9 can be as big or even bigger than the modern 10.

padser · 01-09-2015 12:13PM

Tox56 wrote: »

I have questioned seemingly strange calls from Schmidt and been proven wrong way too many times to be overly concerned. He is obviously human and he has made mistakes, but he's been proven right so often that if he does something you just have to assume it has a good reason. We'll see after the tournament

I agree.

Joe has made so many genius calls in the past that we have to assume that what looks absolutely bonkers to us is, in fact, a masterstroke.

thebaz · 01-09-2015 12:15PM

is Moore not selected due to injury ? - he looked class last season at international level - otherwise happy eneogh - Trimble is very unlucky, but I assume this is due to injury too

Yeah_Right · 01-09-2015 12:22PM

A TH who has never practised or played at LH in his career would not be able to suddenly play LH especially in a test match. However a TH with some experience of playing LH (like Furlong) can be taught to play LH well enough to cover the position if necessary.

I think the bigger issue with going with Furlong, is his age and experience. Props don't tend to hit their peak until late 20s into their early 30s. There are dozens of examples of talented young props (LH and TH) getting their arses handed to them a few times by older opponents before they become good.

Mr Tickle · 01-09-2015 12:28PM

smiley_face wrote: »

It's a point though, that the provinces don't really try to produce a player that can cover 9 and 10, or a player that can cover 1 and 2.
If the provinces were given a directive to promote the production of those types of players we would have better options for future world cups.
The provinces would have to train players and most importantly give them a rotation in competitive matches.
I think 1 and 2 are a bit closer to each other than 3 in terms of physical size, and the 9 and 10 are similar in kicking and passing skills,
and the modern 9 can be as big or even bigger than the modern 10.

Not a bad idea to have around. Take Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, marmion and anyone else with a bit of promise and send them off to nine-and-a-half school some summer. Could lead to some interesting players coming out of it.

Clareman · 01-09-2015 12:29PM

smiley_face wrote: »

It's a point though, that the provinces don't really try to produce a player that can cover 9 and 10, or a player that can cover 1 and 2.
If the provinces were given a directive to promote the production of those types of players we would have better options for future world cups.
The provinces would have to train players and most importantly give them a rotation in competitive matches.
I think 1 and 2 are a bit closer to each other than 3 in terms of physical size, and the 9 and 10 are similar in kicking and passing skills,
and the modern 9 can be as big or even bigger than the modern 10.

Didnt' France try for a few years to produce 9s who were 10s and 10s who were 9s, they just ended up being ok in both positions.

phog · 01-09-2015 12:30PM

total former wrote: »

Ummm, was it not obvious from the comparison with the 1999 and 2003 squads?

Using that as a benchmark Frank Murphy is unlucky not the be travelling.

Podge_irl · 01-09-2015 12:33PM

When did Furlong play LH at U20s? All I remember is him playing TH (and doing so exceptionally well).

total former · 01-09-2015 12:46PM

phog wrote: »

Using that as a benchmark Frank Murphy is unlucky not the be travelling.

If he'd been around in 99 or 03 he probably would have, which just proves my point even more.

padser · 01-09-2015 12:47PM

Clareman wrote: »

Didnt' France try for a few years to produce 9s who were 10s and 10s who were 9s, they just ended up being ok in both positions.

I think they produced one or two who were reasonably handy......

That said, it's difficult to come up with many examples of players who are genuinely world class in both positions....but I guess that's to be expected

wp_rathead · 01-09-2015 01:02PM

phog wrote: »

Using that as a benchmark Frank Murphy is unlucky not the be travelling.

Off topic, but he was reffing at the Limerick Sevens event

CatFromHue · 01-09-2015 01:06PM

Best, Cronin, Strauss
Healy, McGrath
Ross, White, Furlong
POC, Toner, Hendserson, Ryan
Henry, Murphy, SOB, POM,
Heaslip

Murray, Reddan,
Sexton, PJ, Madigan
Henshaw, Payne, Cave
Bowe, Earls, Fitzgerald, DK, Zebo
RK

Fitzgerald and Earls cover the centres
Zebo covers the 15
Murphy covers No.8
Henderson covers back and second row
I still can't see Madigan covering 9

It's a good squad, I like it.

Edit: Just watching the press conference now and Madigan will cover scrum half but at the start of the conference Schmidt mentioned how easily, and readily, they'd call up Boss in the event of an injury.

Furlong is also the third LH

Buer · 01-09-2015 01:19PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

When did Furlong play LH at U20s? All I remember is him playing TH (and doing so exceptionally well).

He didn't. I posted yesterday that he played for Ireland underage. I guess I should have been clearer as people inferred this was for Ireland U20.

He played loosehead for the Irish U18 Youth team.

gamma001 · 01-09-2015 01:21PM

healy fit to play against england

wittycynic · 01-09-2015 01:28PM

gamma001 wrote: »

healy fit to play against england

It worries me that a guy who was supposedly touch and go for the whole tournament is now miraculously able to play our next warm up. There's no point in risking him in what will be a tough test in Twickenham. Better give him an extra couple of weeks and introduce him versus Canada or Romania.

Podge_irl · 01-09-2015 01:31PM

Buer wrote: »

He didn't. I posted yesterday that he played for Ireland underage. I guess I should have been clearer as people inferred this was for Ireland U20.

He played loosehead for the Irish U18 Youth team.

I see, thanks.

Not exactly phenomenally relevant experience.

evil_seed · 01-09-2015 01:33PM

gamma001 wrote: »

healy fit to play against england

Yeah_Right · 01-09-2015 01:39PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I see, thanks.

Not exactly phenomenally relevant experience.

I took it from another poster that he had. He clarified that it was at u18 level. Thanks.
That's still not that long ago and like I said before, I'm sure he has been doing a lot of practice at LH. He obviously brings something to the team that the coaches like and thing think he can do a job for them despite his inexperience at both LH and TH.

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-09-2015 01:40PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I guess they may feel that Murray and Reddan can play every game at 9 and 21, perhaps Reddan starting the first 2 with Murray on the bench and then switching round.

A guy who contributed to some of this imperfect situation is Jackson. While a 9/10 combo player is nice, it is far less to expect an international level outhalf to be able to usefully provide back up elsewhere in the outside backs. Jackson is handicapped by being a 10 and nothing but, so offering no cover. Bringing 3 tens forced the Madigan-9 squeeze, in order to include Cave.

The situation only arises in a WC squad scenario, so wont hamper Jackson chances otherwise since far less of a problem for any other one off international game.

Podge_irl · 01-09-2015 01:46PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I took it from another poster that he had. He clarified that it was at u18 level. Thanks.
That's still not that long ago and like I said before, I'm sure he has been doing a lot of practice at LH. He obviously brings something to the team that the coaches like and thing think he can do a job for them despite his inexperience at both LH and TH.

Its 5(?) years ago and more to the point he was scrummaging against 17 year olds!

I'm not doubting that he has practiced in training and I don't disagree that moving tight to loose is easier than the reverse (based on my extensive experience :pac: ) but I also don't think its as easy to do so at international level as you claim. Surely we would see it more often were it so easy?

connachta · 01-09-2015 01:50PM

gamma001 wrote: »

ah you played vs georgia last year iirc

And 7 min against S-Af

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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