Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

With all respect to Tony Browne, when we won the U-21 Munster titles in 1992 and 1994 the Senior team had been beaten in the championship and their year was over before the U-21 had started, no back door then. it was a little easier to concentrate on the u-21 championship when its the only one you have left to play for. I agree with the posters about this years U-21, it was a monumental disaster, we could have had Limerick in a munster final in Walsh Park and be heading into an all ireland semi if we had gotten over that Clare team.We do have a small pick, and thats why when a good generation of underage talent comes along we have to make the most of them and win everything you can. Make hay while the sun shines, this year is definitely a missed opportunity at U-21 .

Just a reminder for those interested the Tony Forristal and Sonny Walsh U 14 Tournaments take place in the city next Saturday - it is played across five venues this year Erin's Own, St. Saviours, Mount Sion, De La Salle and Walsh Park,.

Fixtures are as follows

TONY FORRISTAL TROPHY
Venue: Mount Sion
Group A - Clare, Antrim, Dublin Group B - Limerick, Waterford, Galway
Time
10.00 Clare V Antrim
10.50 Limerick V Waterford
11.40 Clare V Dublin
12.30 Limerick V Galway
13.20 Antrim V Dublin
14.10 Waterford V Galway
15.50 Div 1 Semi Final Winners Group A V Winners Group B
Venue: St Saviours
Group C - Cork, Tipperary, Offaly Group D - Laois, Kilkenny, Wexford
Time
10.00 Cork V Tipperary
10.50 Laois V Kilkenny
11.40 Offaly V Cork
12.30 Laois V Wexford
13.20 Tipperary V Offaly
14.10 Kilkenny V Wexford
15.50 Div 1 Semi Final Winners Group C V Winners Group D
SONNY WALSH TROPHY
Venue: De La Salle, Gracedieu
Group A - Waterford, Limerick, Kerry, Cork
Time
10.00 Waterford V Limerick
10.50 Kerry V Cork
12.20 Waterford V Kerry
13.10 Limerick V Cork
14.40 Waterford V Cork
15.40 Limerick V Kerry
Top Team straight to the final

Venue: Erins Own, Poleberry Division 2
Group B - Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare
Time Score
10.00 Kilkenny V Dublin
11.40 Clare V Dublin
13.20 Kilkenny V Clare

15.40 Division 2 Semi final Winners Group B V Winners Group C

Venue: Walsh Park Division 2
Group C - Wexford, Tipperary, Galway
Time Score
10.00 Wexford V Tipperary
11.40 Galway V Tipperary
13.20 Wexford V Galway
17.40 Division 2 Final
18.45 Division 1 Final

archieknox wrote: »

Led to believe the same management set up are looking for the job again next yr and believe they did nothing wrong.
Pity the proven combination that have several hurling titles under their belts mightn't get a look in and are interested in the job. Maybe Ballyhale mightn't want to see them leave!!

I hope what you are saying is not true Archie. They surely cannot appoint Lyons again he is a complete and utter spoofer. A football man all his life what in gods name does he know about hurling? But to listen to him you would think he invented the game. I would keep Tony Browne as a selector and throw out the other two. From what I can see Mullane's fire and brimstone tactics are outdated.
I just hope Paddy Joe Ryan sees sense here and does the right thing. If what you are saying is true then give the job to those two if they want it. They have a far better successful CV.

The u16 Arrabawn and u15 tournament also on this weekend. Anyone know of any teams or even what players on each are meant to be handy?
There's surely one or two sons of former players at this grade by now!

The squad sheets for the weekend

http://www.waterfordgaa.ie/taggedNews/364701/2119/hurling_development_squad_tournaments

I'd give them all a chance of getting out of their groups. Cork seem to be the stand out U-16 team judging by last two years and inter divisional tournament this year. Waterford again will be facing a trip to Tipp.

U-15 hard to know. Kilkenny ran away with the Tony Forristal last year beating Galway in the final. This is a Munster only Competition.

The Tony Forristal team would be capable but Galway and Limerick are as good as any under age so we'll see.

TG4 will have cameras at the U-16 and U-14 finals

Always a good day of hurling

Best of Luck to all teams

Cake Man wrote: »

The u16 Arrabawn and u15 tournament also on this weekend. Anyone know of any teams or even what players on each are meant to be handy?
There's surely one or two sons of former players at this grade by now!

The standout players from U16 A team
Thomas Tonto Douglas (DLS)
Donal Carey (DLS)
Tom Barron (Fourmilewater)
Tiernan O'Connell (St Olivers)
Billy Power (Clonea)
Shaun Murray (DG)

The Standout players from U16 B team
Tom Looby (Abbeyside)
Brendan Cullinane (DG)
Luke Flynn (DLS)
Evan McGrath (MS)

Happy to hear of any score updates in today's underage games if anyone hears. Ht in sonny Walsh wfd 2-2 Lk 0-6

Mixed bag of results so far. U16s beaten by Tipp and currently playing Wex but can't advance to the semi final due to Tipp winning their two games.
U15s as far as I know did poor, beaten 2-15 to 0-4 by Cork.
U16b team comfortably beaten by Tipp.

U14s Tony Forristal and Sonny Walsh teams doing well tho, TF play a decider v Galway to determine who goes thru to the semis.
SW scraped a 1pt win over Kerry to lead the group, should they avoid defeat v Cork they'll advance to the semis as well.

robopaddy2 wrote: »

U16s and 15s as expected not good enough. Our prospects for minor grade in 2 years time arent great its fair to say. Good win for the forristal boys against limerick but galway beat limk by a lot more than we did so a big ask for our lads to get through to semis.
U15bs are through to a final though so hopefully we can get some silverware there at least

0-7 to 0-1 down to Galwayin the TF and down 0-12 to 0-1 in the SW - that should be that.
Yeah I'm not too surprised our u15s and 16s haven't done much as we weren't great at TF level the last 2/3 years (could count this year as well I suppose).
Doesn't bode too well for minor in the next few years, Cork and Tipp as usual seem to be the pace setters.

I know these tournaments are just a bit of a showcase and the idea is to dig out a few decent prospects but it's no surprise our previous strong minor teams the last few years came off the back of strong showings in these competitions, including winning a few of them.

here lads ,any idea when this yearskit will go on sale, being the second year you would assume it owuld happen by now but still not on sale

I have been looking in some detail at the Waterford v Kilkenny All-Ireland semi-final, and my findings are set out below. Although analysis of these games involves a lot more than just play statistics, the latter do tell a lot, in my view.

Kilkenny dominated the game in almost all areas. They had 166 possessions (ball in hand) to Waterford’s 144. They used a higher proportion of these possessions to the team’s advantage (63% to 59%). They had a higher number of other plays (hooks, blocks, tackles, ground strokes, knockdowns, etc.) – 38 to Waterford’s 33. They had 39 shots for scores (including frees) to Waterford’s 32, although Waterford actually had a higher success rate with their shots (78% to 74%).

Kilkenny had four shots for a goal during the game but only scored one. Waterford had no shot for a goal. One of Kilkenny’s shots for goal hit Shane Fives on the leg while he was looking the other way. Ger Aylward missed a sitter. TJ Reid’s screamer went inches wide of the post. Kilkenny also hit four bad wides to Waterford’s two. They could well have won this game by 13 or 14 points.

A key factor accounting for Kilkenny’s superior possession count was their ability to hoover up breaking and loose ball around the field, and especially in the middle third where Cillian Buckley, Michael Fennelly and Richie Hogan were particularly prominent in this facet of play. All told, I counted 49 instances of Kilkenny picking up loose/breaking ball against just 30 for Waterford.

All the evidence suggests that Waterford were not mentally well prepared for this game. This was reflected in poor ball control, poor decision-making and poor striking (especially striking for scores). I counted 54 Waterford errors compared to just 14 for Kilkenny. The main error categories were poor ball control (17), poor decision-making (12) and poor striking (12). The most obvious case of poor decision-making was Barry Coughlan’s decision to challenge for a ball already covered by Tadhg de Búrca which led to TJ Reid’s 17th minute goal. Poor striking (and lack of conviction) was particularly apparent in the number of Waterford shots which fell short – eight in all compared with four for Kilkenny.

Another feature of the game which has been much commented on is the number of long balls (apart from shots which fell short) Waterford sent into the Kilkenny goal area – 21 in all . Kilkenny played 11 balls of this type. Although Kilkenny always had an extra man under the long balls sent towards their goal, Waterford actually got possession from 10 of them, leading to seven scores. Kilkenny only won four of the 11 long balls sent into the Waterford goal, and these yielded just one score – TJ Reid’s goal.

A distinctive feature of Waterford’s play throughout the year has been the use of stick passing to move to ball out of defence and create attacking platforms. This tactic was notably absent in this game, with Waterford hitting just 14 passes of this type (excluding short passes) compared with twice that number for Kilkenny. To an extent this could be put down to tight marking by Kilkenny players. At the same time I detected 18 clear cases where Waterford had available passing options but elected instead to hit the ball long (and frequently blind). Kilkenny were much less inclined to hit blind long balls, choosing instead to hold onto the ball and look for better options. In particular, Kilkenny were more inclined to look across field for such options – a sign, no doubt, of their greater experience.

Waterford also had problems with their puckouts. Whereas Kilkenny won 63% of their puckouts, Waterford only won 52% of theirs. If one excludes short puckouts (each team played six of these), Kilkenny won 59% of Waterford’s long puckouts and 52% of their own. In the first half, Waterford’s puckouts were very predictable, with ten of twelve long puckouts being directed down the right, usually towards Brick Walsh. It was easy for the Kilkenny defence to set up against such predictable puckouts. Stephen O’Keeffe varied his long puckouts more in the second half, but with no greater success. Their seemed to be a lot of poor communication between O’Keeffe and his intended targets, but in many cases this may have been simply due to O’Keeffe underhitting or overhitting his pucks.

The below-par performance of the Waterford players was, in my view, matched by that of the team management. In particular, their failure to make more use of their strong bench by throwing in fresh legs towards the end of what was still a retrievable game was hard to fathom. I am led to believe that the puzzling failure to bring in Tom Devine was due to his being disciplined for a misdemeanour during the week prior to the game. Even if this is true, one wonders if this unduly punished both the rest of the team and the thousands of Waterford supporters in the stadium. Especially with the use of the long ball tactic, Devine’s size and strength would have been useful in the Kilkenny goalmouth and, in particular, could have created openings for Patrick Curran who never once touched the ball during his 20 minutes on the pitch.

You would wonder how the other members of the panel, who worked so hard during the year, felt about being left on the sideline with the team on the pitch misfiring in many areas. You would also think that, with nothing to lose, the management would have emptied the bench in the closing stages just to give as many players as possible some experience of playing in Croke Park.

Individual play counts are shown in the table below (excuse the look of the table - I don't know how to transfer tables into these message boxes).

The crucial difference between the teams was the massive inputs for Kilkenny by Cillian Buckley, Richie Hogan and Michael Fennelly (the Sunday Game gave man of the match to TJ Reid, but that just shows how much they know). Buckley recorded a massive 27 plays (including 22 in-hand possessions). The fact that Waterford had nobody marking him was a big help there, and he generally used the ball well. Richie Hogan had a remarkable 21 possessions and also did a lot of damage (including 5 points from play). While Waterford had three players operating in midfield, none of them was given a specific marking job on Hogan, who repeatedly won ball unchallenged.

The three Kilkenny players operating in midfield (Fennelly, Hogan and Conor Fogarty) had 56 plays between them, compared with 41 for Waterford’s three midfielders (Kevin Moran, Jamie Barron, Austin Gleeson). Perhaps more significantly, by my count the Kilkenny trio only made five errors, in contrast to a massive 25 for the Waterford trio.

An interesting aspect of the Kilkenny figures is that two of their fullbacks (Holden and Prendergast) had just seven possessions between them compared with 13 for the other fullback, Paul Murphy. This is because the first two focused on stopping Maurice Shanahan and whoever was with him from winning incoming ball, with Murphy mopping up the breaking ball.
Two Kilkenny forwards, Eoin Larkin and Colin Fennelly, had very quiet games. Ger Aylward did very little in the first half but hit four points after the change of ends.

Waterford had two players whose play count was in the twenties, but unfortunately these were both playing deep in defence and therefore were unable to influence the game in the same way as Kilkenny’s big three playmakers. A lot of Tadhg de Búrca’s 20 plays involved him picking up loose ball in his sweeper role. His use of the ball was not nearly as constructive as it usually is, as he hit a lot of long balls downfield and made a lot of uncharacteristic errors. Shane Fives was by far Waterford’s best player on the day with 17 possessions and 21 plays in total. He has had a terrific year and deserves an All Star.

An interesting feature of Philip Mahony’s and Darragh Fives’s combined 24 possessions was that 19 of them occurred in the second half. Philip Mahony’s first possession in the game came in the 24th minute, which is very poor for a wingback at this level. Both players finished very strongly, which could have produced the springboard for a late comeback, but didn’t.

The contribution of the Waterford engine-room players (Kevin Moran, Jamie Barron and Brick Walsh) was well below their norm – 29 possessions between them compared with 42 against Dublin, 47 against Cork in the Munster semi-final and 49 in the League final. Playing in the midfield area, Austin Gleeson had more possessions than was the norm for him at wingback, and he did contribute three fine points, but his error count (12) was very high and included poor striking and decision-making, fumbles and giving away two silly frees.

Apart from Maurice Shanahan’s wholehearted if thankless efforts, the only Waterford forward who can look back on this game with any level of satisfaction is Colin Dunford, who really took the game to the opposition in the second half with his four points (which could well have been six). Jake Dillon’s and Shane Bennett’s low possession counts (4&3, respectively) must be a particular cause of concern. The management will have to think long and hard over the winter about how Waterford can make better use of their high-potential upcoming forward talent in future years.

Waterford Possessions Other Plays Total Plays Errors
S O'Keeffe 10 1 11 5
S Fives 17 4 21 3
B Coughlan 2 0 2 2
N Connors 5 5 10 2
P Mahony 15 0 15 1
T de Búrca 18 2 20 6
D Fives 9 5 14 1
J Barron 10 3 13 8
K Moran 10 1 11 5
A Gleeson 14 3 17 12
M Walsh 9 1 10 3
J Dillon 4 2 6 2
C Dunford 12 3 15 1
Shane Bennett 3 2 5 2
M Shanahan 5 1 6 1
Stephen Bennett 1 0 1 0
Total 144 33 177 54

Kilkenny
E Murphy 9 0 9 0
P Murphy 13 3 16 0
J Holden 5 2 7 1
S Prendergast 2 3 5 0
P Walsh 13 3 16 1
K Joyce 6 4 10 0
C Buckley 22 5 27 0
C Fogarty 10 2 12 0
M Fennelly 18 4 22 2
W Walsh 12 2 14 3
R Hogan 21 1 22 3
TJ Reid 12 2 14 0
G Aylward 10 4 14 2
C Fennelly 7 3 10 2
E Larkin 6 0 6 0
Total 166 38 204 14

robopaddy2 wrote: »

The Tony Forristal lads got a hard group by the looks of it. The u15s apparantly well off the pace.

Anyone know whos taking over the minors next year? Should have a decent group.

Stephen Gough of Roanmore is supposed to be taking over next years minor he wouldnt be too bad but he dont have good lads around him to help train the team.
The problem with these development squads of late is getting proper coaches and mentors with experience. Instead the parent's of players are getting involved & some lads who never even played the game or coached are supposed to be bringing the young lads to the next level. Its not the fault of the GDA's in the county who do their best in filling these positions. No point clubs expecting the development squads make their players better if the club mentors dont offer their services.

The blue blaa wrote: »

Stephen Gough of Roanmore is supposed to be taking over next years minor he wouldnt be too bad but he dont have good lads around him to help train the team.
The problem with these development squads of late is getting proper coaches and mentors with experience. Instead the parent's of players are getting involved & some lads who never even played the game or coached are supposed to be bringing the young lads to the next level. Its not the fault of the GDA's in the county who do their best in filling these positions. No point clubs expecting the development squads make their players better if the club mentors dont offer their services.

Agree! Time some of our former inter county players put a foot forward and offered to take over development squads. The present set up is a joke. We are heading back to square one quickly.
Re U-16: A lot of work is required to improve skill level skill levels if we are to be competitive at minor. There is still time to tackle the problem. A disaster is looming at minor level for the next few years unless hard decisions are taken. Former inter country players should be approached.

culbaire wrote: »

Agree! Time some of our former inter county players put a foot forward and offered to take over development squads. The present set up is a joke. We are heading back to square one quickly.
Re U-16: A lot of work is required to improve skill level skill levels if we are to be competitive at minor. There is still time to tackle the problem. A disaster is looming at minor level for the next few years unless hard decisions are taken. Former inter country players should be approached.

Because someone played for a county team does not necessarily mean he would make a good coach or manager. Fergal Hartley would be one example with the U21's. The managers of the minor teams for the last 6yrs no body had anything positive to say on here even though the teams performed fairly well.

The women are certainly doing their bit to extend our season. Great second half performance by the Intermediate footballers yesterday to beat Leitrim and qualify for All-Ireland final in Croke Park on fourth Sunday in September. And today Waterford won the All-Ireland Under 16B Camogie All-Ireland for the second year in a row, beating Dublin 2-8 to 1-7 in Nenagh. With Intermediate camogie team already in the All-Ireland final, they certainly seem to have that side of the house in order.