The Irish language is failing.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 05:13PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Not sure if you have kids but from my experience all mine were quite fluent in English starting primary school.They may not have written the works of Shakespeare at 4 years of age but Id describe them as fluent English speakers starting school.
After a few months of total immersion in Irish they were just as good at spoken Irish as they were at English.

Fluent English speakers? At 4? They must have been prodigies! Could they read an article in the Economist?

Hellrazer · 22-08-2015 05:29PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Says who? Why must the state be charged with the preservation of its official languages? Surely the state as a living entity and the constitution as a living document adapt to the changing environment we find ourselves in instead of projecting by force it's rather limited concept of Irishness onto a much more diverse population?

Why?Iif you go to live somewhere that has a different language than your native one then you have to abide by their rules.Canada for example--unless you proficient in French you cant live or work in certain parts of it.If I moved there with none of my kids speaking French then they would have to learn it in the manner it was being taught in Canada. That's government policy and a government being in charge of the preservation of their language. Only difference is that they enforce it.

Im trying to make the point that if Irish was ever revived or tried to be revived as a first language then you,me or any number of immigrants would have to abide by the rules of the state.

IF It's not, but it is fascist to force your cultural heritage onto others who may not identify with it.

No its not.If Irish was a first language then "others who may not identify with it" would have no choice to get in line and learn the language and or the culture.I don't go on holidays and dictate to the locals what I can or cannot do just because I don't identify with it.

.

Fascist. I've never protested before but I'd do everything I can to defeat such a disgusting policy. If that didn't work I wouldn't have them educated in the republic of Ireland.

You like that word don't you? You have a right to complain to your local TD but if it was a majority decision at a political level or even in a referndum you could protest or as you said get your kids educated outside of Ireland.Thats your right but its not fascist if its a democratic decision.

Such extreme and anti democratic measures will never be taken.

Not anti democratic if its the will of the majority of the population. I personally think it would pass in a referendum if the question was put to the people about reviving Irish as a first language.

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 05:32PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Honestly, if in 100 years time there wasn't any Irish at all left in the country, literally nobody speaking it, not a sign of it anywhere bar history books, would you be ok with that?

If nobody in the country wants to do something would I be happy if nobody is doing it... er, I guess. Why not?

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 05:36PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

I'd agree 100% there. Immersion really is key when it comes to Irish. For anyone who hasn't had any experience with a Gaelscoil, visiting one is a real eye-opener. To hear the kids doing everything as Gaeilge is really special and you'd realise that the Irish language is far from dead

And if you hang about you'll hear them all speaking English as soon as they go out the door.
They have to speak it. Apparently none of them want to.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 05:43PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Why?Iif you go to live somewhere that has a different language than your native one then you have to abide by their rules.Canada for example--unless you proficient in French you cant live or work in certain parts of it.If I moved there with none of my kids speaking French then they would have to learn it in the manner it was being taught in Canada. That's government policy and a government being in charge of the preservation of their language. Only difference is that they enforce it.

Are you forgetting that English is an official language of Ireland?

Regardless the state should exert as little power over the choices of its citizens as possible, people's choices and identities should be as free as possible. That includes what language they want to speak or what language they want their children to speak. If a group of Polish parents want to start a polish speaking school I see no problem with that.

The language rules of Quebec are very dogmatic and not something we should seek to emulate.

Im trying to make the point that if Irish was ever revived or tried to be revived as a first language then you,me or any number of immigrants would have to abide by the rules of the state.

Once again fascism. I would not have to abide by anything.

No its not.If Irish was a first language then "others who may not identify with it" would have no choice to get in line and learn the language and or the culture.I don't go on holidays and dictate to the locals what I can or cannot do just because I don't identify with it.

Turn that around. If the the will of the majority dictated that all support should be taken from Irish would you accept that?

All children must be educated through English and all state services must be provided through English olny would you agree with the majorities decision? Would you go along with it?

You like that word don't you? You have a right to complain to your local TD but if it was a majority decision at a political level or even in a referndum you could protest or as you said get your kids educated outside of Ireland.Thats your right but its not fascist if its a democratic decision.

It's an apt description. Thankfully your little wet dream will never come to fruition.

Not anti democratic if its the will of the majority of the population. I personally think it would pass in a referendum if the question was put to the people about reviving Irish as a first language.

Delusional. The people have already voted with their tongues which language they want to speak.

GreaseGunner · 22-08-2015 05:46PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And if you hang about you'll hear them all speaking English as soon as they go out the door.

Not all of them, no. A certian amount of Gaelscoil parents speak Irish at home also. Granted with a good mix of English, but it is still there after 3 o' clock.

They have to speak it. Apparently none of them want to.

In fairness, if kids were let what they want to do in school there'd be no work done.

What I find great about Gaelscoil's is they make Irish much easier for kids, while still taking little or nothing away from the child's learning of English.

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 05:48PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Not sure if you have kids but from my experience all mine were quite fluent in English starting primary school.They may not have written the works of Shakespeare at 4 years of age but Id describe them as fluent English speakers starting school.
After a few months of total immersion in Irish they were just as good at spoken Irish as they were at English.

And you can lie if you want, but even though you insist they are equally fluent they won't speak one word of Irish outside of school because they don't want to.

Hellrazer · 22-08-2015 05:49PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Fluent English speakers? At 4? They must have been prodigies! Could they read an article in the Economist?

You never answered my question..do you have kids?
You are really hung up in this one.

A child cannot start primary school without being proficient in English.That doesn't mean they have to be able to read the Economist or write war and peace (although speaking fluently is completely different than reading an article in the economist but Ill let that one slide) but they do have to be able to speak and understand instructions from the teaching staff.
A child at 5 should be able to hold a conversation with an adult and should have excellent verbal communication skills.
They don't have to be prodigies.

Then they go to a Gaelscoil and because of total immersion in the language they learn it much faster and can speak Irish at the same level of their English within weeks.

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 05:50PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

In fairness, if kids were let what they want to do in school there'd be no work done.

Rubbish argument. You've made no case why anybody needs to be forced to speak Irish beyond the fact that you like it. I can easily make a case of English and Maths being mandatory. Can you do likewise with Irish without using "I like Irish" as your theory?

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 05:52PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Then they go to a Gaelscoil and because of total immersion in the language they learn it much faster and can speak Irish at the same level of their English within weeks.

They could equally be using that time to become excellent at something useful. Which Irish isn't. Or something they might even want to use when they're adults. Which Irish isn't.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 05:57PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

You never answered my question..do you have kids?
You are really hung up in this one.

A child cannot start primary school without being proficient in English.That doesn't mean they have to be able to read the Economist or write war and peace (although speaking fluently is completely different than reading an article in the economist but Ill let that one slide) but they do have to be able to speak and understand instructions from the teaching staff.
A child at 5 should be able to hold a conversation with an adult and should have excellent verbal communication skills.
They don't have to be prodigies.

Then they go to a Gaelscoil and because of total immersion in the language they learn it much faster and can speak Irish at the same level of their English within weeks.

And nor am I going to.

If they can't read the economist they're hardly fluent. Can they read an article from the daily mail? (not that you'd want your kids reading that crap but could they)

Understanding simplistic instructions from a teacher is not fluency. If that's how low your standards are no wonder you think people can easily become fluent in Irish.

Carlos Orange · 22-08-2015 05:58PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Why?Iif you go to live somewhere that has a different language than your native one then you have to abide by their rules.

My 1st language / native language / mother tongue is English. It is for pretty much everyone in Ireland.

GreaseGunner · 22-08-2015 06:16PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Rubbish argument. You've made no case why anybody needs to be forced to speak Irish beyond the fact that you like it. I can easily make a case of English and Maths being mandatory. Can you do likewise with Irish without using "I like Irish" as your theory?

Yes.

The Irish language belongs to Ireland and it's people. It's doesn't belong to the French, nor the Scottish, nor the English. As the people of this country, it is ours. Granted for 99% of us it's not our first language, but it is ours none the less. Our choices of what we do with it are let it die out or keep it somewhat alive.

When it comes to making that choice, whether you like it or not, Irish does have a value. It's not worthless rubbish and for anyone to say it is is not much short of ignorance. The loss of any language, especially one which is still to some degree alive, is an absolute shame.

To keep the language from falling in to total disuse it is heavily reliant on the input of young people and the coming generations. By being a compulsory subject in schools, every child gets a taste of it. Some dislike it, others like it, same as every other subject that's taught. It's not being taught to prepare them for the world in the same way that Maths and English are, but rather to keep it from falling in to disuse and to prevent the complete loss of a language, which would be a huge mistake. If children aren't introduced to it when they're young the chances of them picking it up as adults are far less likely I'd imagine.

If the language were to be made more accessible for young kids and to be taught in a more positive way (Gaelscoils are really great for this) then I believe it has a place in primary schools in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 06:23PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Yes.

The Irish language belongs to Ireland and it's people. It's doesn't belong to the French, nor the Scottish, nor the English. As the people of this country, it is ours. Granted for 99% of us it's not our first language, but it is ours none the less. Our choices of what we do with it are let it die out or keep it somewhat alive.

When it comes to making that choice, whether you like it or not, Irish does have a value. It's not worthless rubbish and for anyone to say it is is not much short of ignorance. The loss of any language, especially one which is still to some degree alive, is an absolute shame.

To keep the language from falling in to total disuse it is heavily reliant on the input of young people and the coming generations. By being a compulsory subject in schools, every child gets a taste of it. Some dislike it, others like it, same as every other subject that's taught. It's not being taught to prepare them for the world in the same way that Maths and English are, but rather to keep it from falling in to disuse and to prevent the complete loss of a language, which would be a huge mistake. If children aren't introduced to it when they're young the chances of them picking it up as adults are far less likely I'd imagine.

If the language were to be made more accessible for young kids and to be taught in a more positive way (Gaelscoils are really great for this) then I believe it has a place in primary schools in Ireland.

And that's what it is. A shame. Not the end of the word.

Our education system should serve our students, instead students are suffering to keep a brain dead language alive.

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 06:57PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Yes.

The Irish language belongs to Ireland and it's people. It's doesn't belong to the French, nor the Scottish, nor the English. As the people of this country, it is ours. Granted for 99% of us it's not our first language, but it is ours none the less. Our choices of what we do with it are let it die out or keep it somewhat alive.

The English language "belongs" to Ireland too because that's what we speak. You seem to think somebody's leasing English to us? How is it not mine as much as Irish is?
And who are you to tell me what I should think my own culture is as a matter of interest?

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 07:01PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

To keep the language from falling in to total disuse it is heavily reliant on the input of young people and the coming generations. By being a compulsory subject in schools, every child gets a taste of it. Some dislike it, others like it, same as every other subject that's taught.

But pretty much 0% of them like it enough to use outside of school or ever again after school. That's how much they like it.

dr.fuzzenstein · 22-08-2015 07:33PM

Look it's simple. Making Irish compulsory would be like making Latin compulsory. It is part of European heritage, we shouldn't forget it, but to make it compulsory and make everyone's future career dependent on learning it is idiocy of the highest order.
Countries change, languages change and to flog a dead horse that cannot and will not ever be revived to appease a few die-hards and loons and to achieve a goal that will never be achieved is just insanity.

Dughorm · 22-08-2015 07:34PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

In the context of your statement that Irish should be mandatory as part of a liberal arts education, why Irish? Why mandatory?

To summarise my posts on this thread:

Why mandatory?
1. There should be mandatory subjects as a core foundation in a liberal arts education - I don't think its acceptable to have complete choice in subjects and still consider it a "liberal arts education"
2. the fundamentals of "reading, writing and arithmetic" should be brought to an advanced level - specialisms are also possible in the forms of choices for business, arts, sciences etc... which complement the core subjects

Why Irish?
1. Irish and English are our national languages - our nationals should be able to converse in our national languages at an advanced level
2. Irish provides a portal by which people can understand the heritage of the island they live on first hand
3. It is reasonable to expect people to be schooled to the competency required to be able to read the words of their national anthem and understand what it says. It would be ridiculous for the State to give people the option to "opt-out" of the language that their national anthem is in, especially coming up to the centenary celebrations of 1916 and the war of independence.

GreaseGunner · 22-08-2015 07:49PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And who are you to tell me what I should think my own culture is as a matter of interest?

I never said a word about culture? I said the language is ours. As long as we are Irish citizens, which I'm assuming you are, with the power to vote on any referendum or similar regarding the Irish language, it's life or death is our responsibility.

GreaseGunner · 22-08-2015 07:51PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But pretty much 0% of them like it enough to use outside of school or ever again after school. That's how much they like it.

The opportunities to use Irish outside of school or after school are quite slim. I would imagine this has every much a a bearing on children using it as whether they like it or not.

Carlos Orange · 22-08-2015 07:51PM

Dughorm wrote: »

To summarise my posts on this thread:

Why Irish?

This sounds more like an argument for lots of other changes, like singing our national anthem in its original language.
Apparently the state doesn't even have copyright to any of the Irish language versions.

Dughorm · 22-08-2015 08:00PM

psinno wrote: »

This sounds more like an argument for lots of other changes, like singing our national anthem in its original language.

And yet it isn't sung in its original language - why is that do you think??

If the lots of other changes you're referring to are changing the national anthem and status of official languages... then certainly these should be discussed as well as making Irish an optional subject - because the discussion is so much more than the leaving cert - it's about what we consider the status of Irish to be in our country...

LordSutch · 22-08-2015 08:02PM

Dughorm wrote: »

To summarise my posts on this thread:

Why mandatory?
1. There should be mandatory subjects as a core foundation in a liberal arts education - I don't think its acceptable to have complete choice in subjects and still consider it a "liberal arts education"
2. the fundamentals of "reading, writing and arithmetic" should be brought to an advanced level - specialisms are also possible in the forms of choices for business, arts, sciences etc... which complement the core subjects

Why Irish?
1. Irish and English are our national languages - our nationals should be able to converse in our national languages at an advanced level.
2. Irish provides a portal by which people can understand the heritage of the island they live on first hand
3. It is reasonable to expect people to be schooled to the competency required to be able to read the words of their national anthem and understand what it says. It would be ridiculous for the State to give people the option to "opt-out" of the language that their national anthem is in, especially coming up to the centenary celebrations of 1916 and the war of independence.

1. English is our 1st spoken language, Polish is the 2nd most spoken language in the state, with Irish (the official language of the state), falling behind as the 3rd most spoken language in the state!

2. English (Hiberno) being our natural-national language provides a portal by which people can understand the heritage of the island they live on, 1st hand.

3. Might as well teach the Irish National Anthem in its original form "English" at this stage, such is the mangling of the Irish version you hear so frequently at football matches etc. As regards what happened between 1916 - 1922, well that's what led to mandatory Irish for all > yet here we are several generations and eight decades later, and we as a nation are still not opting to speak Irish . . .

Aineoil · 22-08-2015 08:18PM

Nach bhfuil an snáithe seo an suimiúil.

Táim ag cogaint ar an bpopbcorn ag léamh agus ag breathnú ar na rudaí atá scríofa faoin teanga.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 08:24PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Nach bhfuil an snáithe seo an suimiúil.

Táim ag cogaint ar an bpopbcorn ag léamh agus ag breathnú ar na rudaí atá scríofa faoin teanga.

Just an fyi, you can't post in Irish here without providing an English translation.

Carlos Orange · 22-08-2015 08:27PM

Dughorm wrote: »

And yet it isn't sung in its original language - why is that do you think??

That repetition is good for memorisation. How many do you think could tell you what the words mean? I still remember the start of the hail Mary in French because we had to say it out loud at the start of each French class.

I didn't end up a French speaker or Catholic.

Aineoil · 22-08-2015 08:36PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just an fyi, you can't post in Irish here without providing an English translation.

Just was saying that the thread is interesting and I was chawing on popcorn.

Aineoil · 22-08-2015 08:39PM

And the other bit that I was reading and looking at what was written.

Aineoil · 22-08-2015 08:42PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just an fyi, you can't post in Irish here without providing an English translation.

Why?

umop apisdn · 22-08-2015 08:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just an fyi, you can't post in Irish here without providing an English translation.

What's the Irish for a hairy poster that lives under a bridge ??

The Irish language is failing.

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