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Renting: Confirming salary / Bank statement

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    #92
    CaoimheSquee
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭CaoimheSquee


    My point exactly. There are numerous horror stories of people being kicked out with the incorrect amount of notice given etc. People REALLY need to know the act and their rights when renting these days. The Consumer Show on RTE covered it recently.

    Also, when you are showing proof of funds to buy a house you don'even show bank statements. You can show your mortgage approval letter but are under no obligation to show the amount, in fact most EA's would, or at least should, advise to block this out, all they need to know is you have approval. Or, if it is cash, a letter from bank or solicitor suffices, bank statements are not necessary or even requested.


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    #93
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    VisibleGorilla wrote: »
    From looking at the thread it seems majority would NOT hand over this information?

    I'm happy to see this, hopefully landlords take notice and stop asking for such info.

    If landlords stop asking for such information- there has to be a commensurate repository of information elsewhere that landlords can draw on to assure the veracity of the person they are entrusting their property to. The standard elsewhere is an Experian or similar report- alongside references. If you don't want to give landlords information- that is entirely your prerogative- but you have to understand Landlords are only trying to safeguard their properties- and they will likely simply move on to a tenant who is willing to play ball. In the current market- refusing to hand over references etc- is a tacit acknowledgement that you are not going to be chosen as a tenant for a property.


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    #94
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    CaoimheSquee wrote: »
    Or, if it is cash, a letter from bank or solicitor suffices, bank statements are not necessary or even requested.

    Many solicitors are doing template letters for prospective buyers simply certifying that their client has access to the funds necessary to support the bid they are making. Nothing more. The bare minimum- but it gives the seller comfort that the sale isn't going to fall at the last hurdle because the buyer can't get the funds.


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    #95
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭ec18


    I wonder how this falls under data protection? As someone has pointed out most landlords are private individual and not registered companies. A lot of landlords are just random people who happen to be renting out a house. As bank statements have a lot of private information about who and what people spend money on. Everyone should be cautious about handing over that sort of information to an unregulated private individual who has no data storage/protection procedure other than a folder......


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    #96
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    ec18 wrote: »
    I wonder how this falls under data protection? As someone has pointed out most landlords are private individual and not registered companies. A lot of landlords are just random people who happen to be renting out a house. As bank statements have a lot of private information about who and what people spend money on. Everyone should be cautious about handing over that sort of information to an unregulated private individual who has no data storage/protection procedure other than a folder......

    Indeed! :mad:


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    #97
    Diamond Doll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭Diamond Doll


    I was asked for this once, years ago. I provided a print-out from my online banking, and blacked out literally everything apart from my salary coming in each month (with the amount blacked out) and my rent going out each month (again with the amount blacked out.) It was accepted with no questions asked.

    I'm pretty much an ideal tenant. Permanent job, and one that a potential landlord could easily work out isn't on minimum wage. Excellent written landlord and employment references, which I'm happy to provide, with phone numbers to verify. Also I'm Irish, which probably shouldn't make any difference, but in my experience (having rented for the last decade) many landlords do prefer Irish tenants, for whatever reason. I've been househunting recently and have been offered every place I've viewed, even where I was offering less rent than other potential tenants. And actually, this time around, I haven't once been asked for a bank statement - just references and deposit.

    I still haven't found the right place, but I wouldn't be willing to hand over my salary details or bank statements for even the most perfect apartment/house. It's absolutely none of the landlord's business. OK previous landlord references may be easily falsified (mine aren't), but they could easily Google my company and ask the receptionist over the phone whether someone by my name worked there, and what my position is, if they were so inclined. Therefore they can be assured that I have the means to pay the rent. Whether I'll actually pay it and whether I'll take care of the property - there's a certain amount of two-way trust involved there, and it's nothing that'll be proved by viewing my bank statements.


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    #98
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Until we move into at least the 20th century in relation to credit referencing it's a rock and a hard place. If you don't like it walk, they'll be a queue behind you with the market the way it is.

    I agree with this. I got a printout from the Irish Credit Bureau just to see what it said. Ive had a number of term loans, all of which have been repaid early, a credit card paid in full each month, always pay my bills, never missed a rental payment, full tax compliance etc, but all the credit report showed is that I wasnt currently in default with my credit card.

    A system whereby each bank company and employer can, with the employees permission, share all relevant info with the ICB so that they can give a credit score of 1-100 where 1 is never pays or saves anything and 100 is still has his confirmation money and then it can be used as a simple introduction letter and a two way street (a landlord could only request it if he provides his own etc).


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    #99
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    The fact that you do not in fact know that this may be illegal in most circumstances may be the reason I would not hand over my data.

    Particularly if I had regular medical costs, religious donations, memberships to LGBT websites. The data you would be collecting would also be excessive therefore in breach of data protection law even if you had met the test(s) for a reason(s) to process.

    Failure to properly understand DP law would be may major concern, along with privacy, and decreased bargaining power.


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    #100
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    usernamegoes wrote: »
    The fact that you do not in fact know that this may be illegal in most circumstances may be the reason I would not hand over my data.

    Particularly if I had regular medical costs, religious donations, memberships to LGBT websites. The data you would be collecting would also be excessive therefore in breach of data protection law even if you had met the test(s) for a reason(s) to process.

    Failure to properly understand DP law would be may major concern, along with privacy, and decreased bargaining power.

    Use a black marker. How is a membership of a LGBT website of any concern to anyone these days?


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    #101
    Stereomaniac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    Sadly it is a concern to some people in this country still. Some people can be very narrow minded.


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    #102
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Use a black marker. How is a membership of a LGBT website of any concern to anyone these days?

    It's protected specially under the law, the fact you don't know this means I'd be less likely to give you such information.


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    #103
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    usernamegoes wrote: »
    It's protected specially under the law, the fact you don't know this means I'd be less likely to give you such information.

    Why would you want to give me this info at all?


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    #104
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    usernamegoes wrote: »
    The fact that you do not in fact know that this may be illegal in most circumstances may be the reason I would not hand over my data.

    Particularly if I had regular medical costs, religious donations, memberships to LGBT websites. The data you would be collecting would also be excessive therefore in breach of data protection law even if you had met the test(s) for a reason(s) to process.

    Failure to properly understand DP law would be may major concern, along with privacy, and decreased bargaining power.

    Nothing illegal about it:

    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/what-information-can-a-landlord-request-from-me/

    Concern about privacy? How is your actual credit worthiness private when entering into a contract based entirely on said credit worthiness. I'd say it's the most pertinent information, not private.

    Can you explain a reason why you would be concerned about it for negotiations? If your landlord increases your rent and it's above the market rate you say you're leaving or you renegotiate it down to the market rate?


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    #105
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Jambonjunior wrote: »
    You would have to be awfully paranoid if you rang up a verified agent and thought they were lying to cover a friend.

    Would you be satisfied with a bank statement that was covered up for everything bar the three months rent payments?

    On the assumption that the tenant used an agent. If they did, then an agent would be an independent third party and I'd be more comfortable with that.

    The situation you describe above would be fine


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    #106
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    As others have pointed out, the tenant is taking a risk/leap of faith that the LL can meet their mortgage obligations, is tax compliant, and has the money to pay for any repairs in a timely manner - yet I doubt many of the same people demanding this info from prospective tenants will hand over their details for inspection themselves.

    Do you think this is an equal comparison to the transfer of control of an asset worth a considerable amount of money and with no financial protection or insurance for more than one year from inception of the tenancy?
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Well maybe the owner in question shouldn't be in the rental game then.. in short BOTH sides have to act in good faith, and there are established systems for dealing with any grievances from either side should they be necessary.

    The established systems fall woefully short and can result in financial ruin for a landlord. Do you believe in a developed economy that people should have the right to protect their businesses and seek out assurance or insurance in the case of counterparty default or negligence? If you do can you point me to the established systems that allows this?


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    #107
    Rantan
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭Rantan


    Im one of those 'random' non professional type landlords. I 've been letting a property for about 8 years now. I 've always had great tennants. I have never asked for bank statements and never will. I trust my judgement and luckily have been right so far. I agree that the market needs some formal regulation. I have surprised myself at my own lack of knowledge in the past about certain issues. So I think anyone letting a property should be required to do a day course or be certified or registered in some fashion. PRTB is a step towards this but not enough imo.


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    #108
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Barely Hedged wrote: »

    Concern about privacy? How is your actual credit worthiness private when entering into a contract based entirely on said credit worthiness. I'd say it's the most pertinent information, not private.

    My bank account details are private, the amount of money I earn is private, what I spend my money on is private and no LL will get this information from me. A letter from a bank etc stating that I am good for the rent but giving no actual details about me would be something I may be willing to get but I would not allow any financial details to be given to the LL.
    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Can you explain a reason why you would be concerned about it for negotiations? If your landlord increases your rent and it's above the market rate you say you're leaving or you renegotiate it down to the market rate?

    As an example a LL may be less inclined to push for a large rent increase if they are unsure of your financial situation. You may be a good tenant and they are happy to keep you but may not risk moving your rent to market rate if they are unsure if you could afford it. I'd always rather be in a situation where a LL is guessing that I earn less than I actually do, same as I would for most people actually.


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    #109
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Do you think this is an equal comparison to the transfer of control of an asset worth a considerable amount of money and with no financial protection or insurance for more than one year from inception of the tenancy?
    This is not the concern of the tenant. If I wanted the headaches which come with owning property, I'd buy, not rent. I really wonder if you are in the right business.


    The established systems fall woefully short and can result in financial ruin for a landlord. Do you believe in a developed economy that people should have the right to protect their businesses and seek out assurance or insurance in the case of counterparty default or negligence? If you do can you point me to the established systems that allows this?
    Agree the established systems fall short, both for landlords and for tenants who have no effective security of tenure where landlords simply stop providing the service the tenant is paying for mid lease.


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    #110
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Hudson Dry Scarf wrote: »
    As an example a LL may be less inclined to push for a large rent increase if they are unsure of your financial situation. You may be a good tenant and they are happy to keep you but may not risk moving your rent to market rate if they are unsure if you could afford it. I'd always rather be in a situation where a LL is guessing that I earn less than I actually do, same as I would for most people actually.

    A landlord may be far more inclined to seek a far higher deposit at the outset- if they are unsure of a prospective tenant's financial status (and if the tenant is unwilling to clarify the situation).

    You may be a good tenant- but to a prospective landlord- he/she has no idea if your previous landlord wrote you a glowing reference just to get rid of you- you are an unknown quantity to a landlord- until you have established a relationship with the landlord.

    I'm not sure why its so confrontational here.
    Its hard to find rental accommodation at the moment in any areas with reasonable demand.
    You are deliberately cutting off your nose to spite your face- by being antagonistic towards a prospective landlord.
    Redact requested documents to your hearts content- black out any sensitive information- and clarify with the landlord what their document retention policies are- I know several landlords who will happily shred documents there and then on the spot in front of tenants- once they've inspected them and are happy with them.

    Deliberately making things difficult for yourself- isn't going to help you in the long run.

    I don't buy this- lets stuff historic documents into the attic either- it doesn't make any sense- aside from anything else- its a fire hazard and paper is damn heavy, bulky and cumbersome- it has to be destroyed sooner or later- why hang onto it longer than is absolutely necessary?


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    #111
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Moderator note

    We have a very reasonable and mostly lenient moderating approach in this forum- however, we do insist posters remain civil towards one another- and cognisant that the forum is for everyone- not just tenants, not just landlords- everyone. I've just handed out an infraction to a poster who decided to call landlords nazis (and deleted another half a dozen posts). The amount of work miscreants are creating for moderators in this thread- is rapidly dwindling the laissez faire attitude we normally display.

    If you refuse to acknowledge and obey the charter governing posting in this forum- alongside any express instructions given by moderators- you will be banned. No more warnings etc- you will be banned, period.

    Regards,

    The_Conductor

    Ps- discussing the moderation on thread- is also not appropriate- if you have a problem with a moderator- take it up with them directly, and if you're still unhappy- we have a dispute resolution process- it is not acceptable to derail threads discussing moderation.


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    #112
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Hudson Dry Scarf wrote: »
    My bank account details are private, the amount of money I earn is private, what I spend my money on is private and no LL will get this information from me. A letter from a bank etc stating that I am good for the rent but giving no actual details about me would be something I may be willing to get but I would not allow any financial details to be given to the LL.

    Ok, we'll agree to disagree.

    No bank will give that type of statement anyway.

    Do you agree that in your case and if it is replicated across the market, creates uncertainty for landlords and their investment? In any type of investment, across many markets, uncertainty sends investors fleeing for so called safe havens. This uncertainty is pushing investors away and steering clear of the property market. Less landlords means less properties and higher rent. Adding certainty to the landlord/tenant relationship would ease this and you'd pay lower rent?
    Hudson Dry Scarf wrote: »
    As an example a LL may be less inclined to push for a large rent increase if they are unsure of your financial situation. You may be a good tenant and they are happy to keep you but may not risk moving your rent to market rate if they are unsure if you could afford it. I'd always rather be in a situation where a LL is guessing that I earn less than I actually do, same as I would for most people actually.

    Youre assuming that the landlord wont be able to make an assumption about the earning power of their tenant from their work reference?


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    #113
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    This is not the concern of the tenant. If I wanted the headaches which come with owning property, I'd buy, not rent. I really wonder if you are in the right business.

    It creates uncertainty. People dont invest money where there is uncertainty. Less people investing translates into less landlords and less rental properties leading to large rent increases. Sound familiar?


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    #114
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Do you think this is an equal comparison to the transfer of control of an asset worth a considerable amount of money and with no financial protection or insurance for more than one year from inception of the tenancy?

    Yes because while it's an asset to you, it's their home. I'm sick of hearing about friends being evicted because their landlord was pocketing the rent and not paying the mortgage. Having to change schools for your children is a hefty price to pay for unknowingly doing business with a crook.


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    #115
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    gaius c wrote: »
    Yes because while it's an asset to you, it's their home. I'm such of hearing about friends being evicted because their landlord was pocketing the rent and not paying the mortgage. Having to change schools for your children is a hefty price to pay for unknowingly doing business with a crook.

    In cases such as you are describing- I would argue that there is a legitimate case for the tenant pursuing the landlord for damages- whether, or not, they were successful- I don't know- but they would certainly blacken the name of the landlord, highlight their activities and make anyone else inclined to behave in a similar manner think twice.

    The entire rental industry in Ireland- is so screwed up- its quite unbelievable. Every single landlord in the country has been burnt by at least one tenant- some for 10s of thousands of Euro- and so many tenants have had their lives screwed around with by unscrupulous landlords- that its not funny.

    The PRTB is not fit for purpose- nor is the 2004 Act. The interests of both landlords and tenants are being willfully ignored and/or manipulated by people- in the knowledge that there are damn all consequences for their actions.

    It is a two way street though- both tenants and landlords are getting one hell of a raw deal out of the current setup.


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    #116
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    In cases such as you are describing- I would argue that there is a legitimate case for the tenant pursuing the landlord for damages- whether, or not, they were successful- I don't know- but they would certainly blacken the name of the landlord, highlight their activities and make anyone else inclined to behave in a similar manner think twice.

    The entire rental industry in Ireland- is so screwed up- its quite unbelievable. Every single landlord in the country has been burnt by at least one tenant- some for 10s of thousands of Euro- and so many tenants have had their lives screwed around with by unscrupulous landlords- that its not funny.

    The PRTB is not fit for purpose- nor is the 2004 Act. The interests of both landlords and tenants are being willfully ignored and/or manipulated by people- in the knowledge that there are damn all consequences for their actions.

    It is a two way street though- both tenants and landlords are getting one hell of a raw deal out of the current setup.

    I challenge you to produce statistics to verify that statement! :eek:


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    #117
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    In cases such as you are describing- I would argue that there is a legitimate case for the tenant pursuing the landlord for damages- whether, or not, they were successful- I don't know- but they would certainly blacken the name of the landlord, highlight their activities and make anyone else inclined to behave in a similar manner think twice.

    The entire rental industry in Ireland- is so screwed up- its quite unbelievable. Every single landlord in the country has been burnt by at least one tenant- some for 10s of thousands of Euro- and so many tenants have had their lives screwed around with by unscrupulous landlords- that its not funny.

    The PRTB is not fit for purpose- nor is the 2004 Act. The interests of both landlords and tenants are being willfully ignored and/or manipulated by people- in the knowledge that there are damn all consequences for their actions.

    It is a two way street though- both tenants and landlords are getting one hell of a raw deal out of the current setup.

    Forget pursuing them for damages. They should be jailed for fraud because that's exactly what it is.


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    #118
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    gaius c wrote: »
    Forget pursuing them for damages. They should be jailed for fraud because that's exactly what it is.

    Agreed!!! :mad:


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    #119
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    REXER wrote: »
    I challenge you to produce statistics to verify that statement! :eek:

    Check out the PRTB case details- theres plenty there for starters- and thats just where people bothered to lodge cases. The number of cases of both landlords and tenants taking the piss- is staggering. The various bodies (including Threshold, the housing charities, DSP etc) keep their own stats- as do banks and other bodies- unfortunately- there isn't a composite of all of these anywhere- the only agnostic statistics- are the PRTBs- which only account for a very small fraction of the issues that actually occur (most people don't both reporting issues- because the perception is that there is absolutely no point).


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    #120
    Jambonjunior
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭Jambonjunior


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Do you think this is an equal comparison to the transfer of control of an asset worth a considerable amount of money and with no financial protection or insurance for more than one year from inception of the tenancy?
    You keep repeating this, if it's such an issue for you perhaps you shouldn't be a landlord?
    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    The established systems fall woefully short and can result in financial ruin for a landlord. Do you believe in a developed economy that people should have the right to protect their businesses and seek out assurance or insurance in the case of counterparty default or negligence?

    How does "X is paid y", protect you any more than "X works works here full-time" when it's a safe assumption from the latter that X earns enough to cover the rent?


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    #121
    Jambonjunior
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭Jambonjunior


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Youre assuming that the landlord wont be able to make an assumption about the earning power of their tenant from their work reference?
    Missed this post. So I have to assume now that we're all agreed now that a work reference should suffice rather than having to disclose salary or bank details?


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