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Renting: Confirming salary / Bank statement

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    #62
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Really. How does that work with an original statement?

    eStatements are more common now. You mentioned going into the bank and having one printed off but how do you tell the difference?

    A bank statement can be as fake as any of the references. All these requirements could be scaring away a lot of good tenants who have there pick of places if they feel that the LL could be difficult to deal with.


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    #63
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Problem is, a lot of professional people wont be happy to hand over bank statements to your average Irish landlord so by definition you are left with people who dont really understand the rights and obligations involved in renting here.


    I think the opposite, professional's are professional ( mostly) its a services a very important one at that that you wish to purchase. If you go out side of this tiny, tiny, island you will not find a system to me knowledge and experience that a landlord would hand over a property worth hundreds of thousands on the word of a reference printed out by just one previous landlord.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I wouldn't dream of showing a bank statement or payslip to a LL. Absolutely none of their business, deposit up front and months rent along with the fact a person is easy to kick out in the first 6 months (a person who cannot afford to pay rent will be flagged well within this time) should be plenty for any LL.

    I'd walk away if asked for this info, I'm not buying the house ffs.

    I've never even been asked for a reference when moving to a new place never mind a bank statement.


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    #65
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    syklops wrote: »
    OK, so references aren't worth the paper they are printed on. So why did you ask for one?

    Never said such a thing
    syklops wrote: »
    Yes they will

    Where in this thread has anti social behaviour been mentioned
    syklops wrote: »
    I doubt it.

    Doubt all you want. I suggest you inform yourself or even consider the reason why a landlord would do that
    syklops wrote: »
    Thats nice but such a service does not currently exist in Ireland.

    A bank statement is an independent verification by a third party - very easy.
    syklops wrote: »
    But that only shows they've paid for the past three months. Plus:

    Paid 1200 to account number 56781245 on a bank statement means nothing. That could be going to paddy power for all you know.

    Thats ok. Thats probably the most important part as it shows they were performing tenants up to the end of the tenancy.

    Youre picking out an obscure example. The vast majority of people wont exhibit this behaviour


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    #66
    Jambonjunior
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭Jambonjunior


    Barely Hedged wrote: »

    A bank statement is an independent verification by a third party - very easy.



    Thats ok. Thats probably the most important part as it shows they were performing tenants up to the end of the tenancy.

    Youre picking out an obscure example. The vast majority of people wont exhibit this behaviour
    Jambonjunior wrote: »
    Would multiple reliable landlord references but enough to satisfy you or is only bank statements going to do it?

    WHy do you need bank statements if you have people that will confirm that rent was paid?


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    #67
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Jambonjunior wrote: »
    WHy do you need bank statements if you have people that will confirm that rent was paid?

    The "landlord" could just be a friend. Now if an old lease with the tenant's and landlord's name and phone number could prove that the person was who the say they are it could be trusted.

    Going to need a folder of info at this rate.


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    #68
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Jambonjunior wrote: »
    WHy do you need bank statements if you have people that will confirm that rent was paid?

    I've repeatedly mentioned in this thread that they are not Independently verifiable. There's a few examples in there too


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    #69
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    eStatements are more common now. You mentioned going into the bank and having one printed off but how do you tell the difference?

    A bank statement can be as fake as any of the references. All these requirements could be scaring away a lot of good tenants who have there pick of places if they feel that the LL could be difficult to deal with.

    They are more common but the only true and Independently verifiable one is the ones issued by the bank. If you're on estatements, a bank will issue an authentic one and even stamp it for a fee.

    Scaring away good tenants. What exactly have they to be scared of? We're how many posts into this thread and not one convincing example has been given to indicate something to be scared of


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    #70
    LollipopJimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭LollipopJimmy


    Seems nearly every property wants 3 months statement now. I provided a bank reference to my last LL which cost me €20 which he was in turn billed for. No data and the bank told him I was good for the amount.
    I fell for it a while back, earning a decent salary gave my statement to an estate agent and suddenly that place wasn't available anymore but a more expensive place was, couldn't help but be suspicious so that's why I now use the bank reference which is as good as or better than a bank statement


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    #71
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Hudson Dry Scarf wrote: »
    I wouldn't dream of showing a bank statement or payslip to a LL. Absolutely none of their business, deposit up front and months rent along with the fact a person is easy to kick out in the first 6 months (a person who cannot afford to pay rent will be flagged well within this time) should be plenty for any LL.

    I'd walk away if asked for this info, I'm not buying the house ffs.

    I've never even been asked for a reference when moving to a new place never mind a bank statement.

    The innocence of your post is sweet. The real world tenants play the game and then play the system not all but à Landlord only needs it to happen once and he/she could be.looking easly at thousands in damage / un paid rent/ solicitors fees . Not to mention stress and upset


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    #72
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I have never provided a bank statement and I never will. If a prospective landlord is asking for one, I will walk away and keep looking for a landlord with whom I can do business. A private individual has no business looking at my personal finances. I will happily provide work and landlord references to attest to my job and track record.

    It would be a different story if we had professional landlords, operating as registered businesses, with a code of conduct to mind my personal data. If such a system was in place, I wouldn't have much issue with that.


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    #73
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    dudara wrote: »
    I have never provided a bank statement and I never will. If a prospective landlord is asking for one, I will walk away and keep looking for a landlord with whom I can do business. A private individual has no business looking at my personal finances. I will happily provide work and landlord references to attest to my job and track record.

    It would be a different story if we had professional landlords, operating as registered businesses, with a code of conduct to mind my personal data. If such a system was in place, I wouldn't have much issue with that.

    This private individual you speak of is not a random person on a street. They are someone handing control of their asset to you with significant downside risks to them. Is it not prudent for them to try and cover themselves and mitigate losses as best the can in this situation

    Who says they have to store the data?


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    #74
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    They are not a professional operation, nor are they bound by any code of conduct or legislation regarding my data. Therefore, I will not share it with them. There are different ways to assess prospective tenants without having to ask for a bank statement.

    I recognise that a property is a significant asset. This is why I spend a significant amount of time talking to prospective landlords. I want to assess if they meet my standards and will be good landlords to deal with. I am very confident in my standing as a tenant, and I want to make sure that I get an equally good landlord. Last time we were house hunting, I declined several high-end properties as I just didn't have faith in the landlord. And I completely understand if a landlord feels the same about me.

    At the end of the day, given that we have a largely amateur rental market here, I want to have a landlord I feel comfortable with. And I want the landlord to be comfortable with me. I believe in having a good, long-lasting relationship. If the market changes, and becomes more professional with more regulation, then I'll adapt.


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    #75
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    This private individual you speak of is not a random person on a street
    Im afraid they are no better than some random person on the street. You are dealing with a single person who often have bizarre ideas of what a tenancy is supposed to be, not a business entity with a reputation and a track record with whom you can have some level of confidence and trust going into a contract.

    If someone decides that an 'original bank statement' is gospel when it comes to verifying and vetting a tenant for example, there is no manager or colleague to tell them that that is a very silly idea.

    A savvy, professional renter is unlikely to share personal financial data under these circumstances tbh, which leaves you with the rest of the market.


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    #76
    omega666
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭omega666


    I own my own house so dont rent any more if i was renting and requested to provide my bank statements i would just walk.

    What benefit is there to getting a bank statement?

    That there is a history of rent being paid to the last landlord?
    All your bank statement will tell you is that you paid a sum of money to an account number. That account number could anyone not necessarly a previous landlord and it doesnt tell you if the the tenant walked out of the place after causing thousands worth of damage.

    That you can afford the rent?
    The tenant could lose thier job 1 day after singing the contract.
    The tenant might be able to afford the rent on paper but that dosent gaurentee they are going to pay it every month.
    The tenant might have a mountain of debt elsewhere.

    I think only a very naive person would providing access to personal information like your banking details to a private individual without a clue what they are going to with it or who else could be accessing it.


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    #77
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    They are more common but the only true and Independently verifiable one is the ones issued by the bank. If you're on estatements, a bank will issue an authentic one and even stamp it for a fee.

    Scaring away good tenants. What exactly have they to be scared of? We're how many posts into this thread and not one convincing example has been given to indicate something to be scared of

    Hopefully they dont go easy on the ink or that stamp could cause a problem.

    An overbearing landlord. Plus if the landlord knows your income they are at an advantage when it comes to rent increases. They know how much you can afford when it comes to the end of the lease. I wouldnt tell an estate agent how much I've been approved for when buying a house either. Then you have some amateur with your bank details.


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    #78
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    Hopefully they dont go easy on the ink or that stamp could cause a problem.

    An overbearing landlord. Plus if the landlord knows your income they are at an advantage when it comes to rent increases. They know how much you can afford when it comes to the end of the lease. I wouldnt tell an estate agent how much I've been approved for when buying a house either. Then you have some amateur with your bank details.

    What advantage exists for the landlord for rent increases? The increase can only be in line with the market rate, no matter your income. And secondly, you can simply not accept a rent increase and move. If you dispute it, you lodge with he PTRB who adjudicate and decide if the rent increase is fair. By assuring your rent is under 1/3 salary, you are less likely to run into affordability problems.

    I do not think bank statements should be given, but a declaration of salary from your employer is pretty reasonable and for reference, is not unusual in the european countries where renting long term is the norm, which is what people want, right?


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Barely Hedged wrote: »

    Care to change your stance?

    No, no chance.

    My bank statements, what I earn (I'd much prefer a LL guessing that I earn less than I do), the comings and goings from my account and how I manage my finances is not something I am willing to disclose to a LL simple as that, I would just refuse and move onto the next property.

    Bull like this is the one of the many reasons I will be buying asap.


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    #80
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Fair play to landlords and agents being proactive here and at least trying to protect themselves against delinquent tenants. The state does nothing to protect landlords from over holding tenants and there's no such thing as Experian or Schufa where you can get an independent percentage score of a person's credit worthiness, so what's a LL left to do?!

    Tenants who do not wish to disclose these things are free not to. Neither party is compelled to deal with the other.


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    #81
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    syklops wrote: »
    The voice of reason at last.

    More like somebody who confirms your narrow minded view


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    #82
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    More like somebody who confirms your narrow minded view

    There is no need for comments like that. Just because I have a different opinion to you, there is no need to get personal.


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    #83
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    Hopefully they dont go easy on the ink or that stamp could cause a problem.

    An overbearing landlord. Plus if the landlord knows your income they are at an advantage when it comes to rent increases. They know how much you can afford when it comes to the end of the lease. I wouldnt tell an estate agent how much I've been approved for when buying a house either. Then you have some amateur with your bank details.

    This point has already been raised. You don't like the new rent rate, you walk or negotiate


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    #84
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    dissed doc wrote: »
    What advantage exists for the landlord for rent increases? The increase can only be in line with the market rate, no matter your income. And secondly, you can simply not accept a rent increase and move. If you dispute it, you lodge with he PTRB who adjudicate and decide if the rent increase is fair. By assuring your rent is under 1/3 salary, you are less likely to run into affordability problems.

    I do not think bank statements should be given, but a declaration of salary from your employer is pretty reasonable and for reference, is not unusual in the european countries where renting long term is the norm, which is what people want, right?

    And if the landlord knows your income and outgoings they have a better idea what you can afford and if an increase would affect you much. Its not guaranteed but it provides an advantage and the market rate doesnt prevent a place being a bit expensive for what you're getting. (of course I'm expecting someone to say "if its expensive you can move out" missing the point completely)
    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    This point has already been raised. You don't like the new rent rate, you walk or negotiate

    Nobodies claiming people cant walk away, Im saying the opposite. High requirements could lead to good tenants looking elsewhere while not improving the quality of tenants you are getting.


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    #85
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Attack the post not the poster,and don't make work for the mods . Way too many posts deleted here.
    More cards to follow if charter continues to be breached.


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    #86
    Jambonjunior
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭Jambonjunior


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    I've repeatedly mentioned in this thread that they are not Independently verifiable. There's a few examples in there too

    You would have to be awfully paranoid if you rang up a verified agent and thought they were lying to cover a friend.

    Would you be satisfied with a bank statement that was covered up for everything bar the three months rent payments?


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    #87
    Jambonjunior
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭Jambonjunior


    Barely Hedged wrote: »

    Scaring away good tenants. What exactly have they to be scared of? We're how many posts into this thread and not one convincing example has been given to indicate something to be scared of

    Is maintaining privacy not reasonable?


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    #88
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    faceman wrote: »
    Why would a LL need to keep a copy in their attic? Are you saying that's ok?

    I'm curious because I'm a LL and I need to know what I'm doing wrong given I don't ask tenants for bank statements or payslips.

    Why indeed - An EA would need to keep it on file to prove they took it. A LL simply needs sight of it.

    No one said you were doing anything wrong, others want to do more checking. Saying it's unethical ios like me saying not taking them is unethical as you may end up with a delinquent tenant and falling behind with management fees, maintenance or similar etc.

    It's perfectly fine as long as the LL processes data in accordance with DPA guidelines.


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    #89
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Moderator note- please read before continuing to post in this thread

    Guys- Athrasna and myself have deleted a ridiculous number of posts- and issued warnings on others, last night and again this morning.

    This forum is visited and used by all involved in the property and accommodation sector- we are not going to agree with one another- however, if you don't remain civil towards one another- you will have your rights to post in this forum suspended.

    The simple rule of thumb is- if you disagree with what another poster posts- refute the post, without attacking the poster.

    This also applies to tenants painting landlords with a broad brush, and landlords tenants in a selfsame manner.

    It is not a perfect world- its never going to be- one of the good things about having a forum like this one- where everyone in the sector can knuckle down and debate issues- is we learn from one another. Landlords get a better grasp of what the story is with tenants. Tenants discover that their landlord may not be some financial mogul making a killing. Both parties get to discuss agents, management companies, issues that arise, how different problems are dealt with etc- and we all get to debate the likes of the PRTB, taxation policy as it pertains to landlords, tenants, property in general, and then the plain and bizarre happenings that seem to occur in this little country of ours on a daily basis.

    While many of you may not realise- in very many cases- both landlords and tenants have vested interests in specific issues being resolved- both as individuals- but also as a sector (such as a deposit and inspection scheme being introduced by a PRTB Mark 2 as an example).

    Lets get back on topic, keep things civil, no more inflamatory remarks deliberately trying to draw or goad people, and a little understanding all round. We have a lot to learn from one another- use the opportunity- abuse the opportunity- and you're out.

    Thankyou.


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    #90
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,739 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Not a chance would I hand this sort of information to a private individual or estate agent. A confirmation letter of employment status, reference and a deposit is enough.

    As others have pointed out, the tenant is taking a risk/leap of faith that the LL can meet their mortgage obligations, is tax compliant, and has the money to pay for any repairs in a timely manner - yet I doubt many of the same people demanding this info from prospective tenants will hand over their details for inspection themselves.
    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Not worth the paper it's written on. Do you accept that it's prudent to hand over control of an asset that can be worth several hundred thousand Euro for the price of a piece of paper?

    Well maybe the owner in question shouldn't be in the rental game then.. in short BOTH sides have to act in good faith, and there are established systems for dealing with any grievances from either side should they be necessary.


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    #91
    VisibleGorilla
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭VisibleGorilla


    From looking at the thread it seems majority would NOT hand over this information?

    I'm happy to see this, hopefully landlords take notice and stop asking for such info.


This discussion has been closed.
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