Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

RichieRich89 · 20-08-2015 10:15PM

.ak wrote: »

That's silly. Madigan should be backup 12. Why risk the scrumhalf situation?

Despite playing inside centre successfully towards the end of the 2012/2013 season, Madigan isn't really a Joe 12. Joe prefers a power runner at 12. One solution could be to take McFadden as wing/12 cover. He was good at 12 under Schmidt at Leinster - notably against Bath when Leinster won 52-27

connachta · 20-08-2015 10:49PM

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Despite playing inside centre successfully towards the end of the 2012/2013 season, Madigan isn't really a Joe 12. Joe prefers a power runner at 12. One solution could be to take McFadden as wing/12 cover. He was good at 12 under Schmidt at Leinster - notably against Bath when Leinster won 52-27

I dislike the idea of "1 joe style". A team which has the ambition to play semi-final of the RWC at least can't be monotonous. Yes, the first team should remain stable, but replacements are here to provide impact, surprises, other schemes, to disturb the opposition when needed. That's why I'd prefer Madigan, Zebo, Marmion, as backups, better than Mcfadden, Jones, Boss.
We haven't BOD anymore, let's accept at least a little bit of sparkles, we're not England FFS:pac:

RichieRich89 · 20-08-2015 10:59PM

connachta wrote: »

I dislike the idea of "1 joe style". A team which has the ambition to play semi-final of the RWC at least can't be monotonous. Yes, the first team should remain stable, but replacements are here to provide impact, surprises, other schemes, to disturb the opposition when needed. That's why I'd prefer Madigan, Zebo, Marmion, as backups, better than Mcfadden, Jones, Boss.
We haven't BOD anymore, let's accept at least a little bit of sparkles, we're not England FFS:pac:

I agree. I'd have Madigan at 22, and Zebo starting. What I'm saying is that McFadden could be good 12 back-up as well as covering wing

The Rape of Lucretia · 21-08-2015 12:10AM

connachta wrote: »

They both need gametime, it means nothing...

I dont think they need game time. They aim for them, as for all of those who wont be in the 31, is now to stay injury free. Best not risking game time. The chance of any one reserve being called up is low, but if needed, to sit on the bench or play a few minutes of a minor game you need them healthy first, match sharp second. What you dont want is going down to your 5th ot 6th choice scrum half because Marmion has injured himself playing friendlys for Connaught.

connachta · 21-08-2015 12:44AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I dont think they need game time. They aim for them, as for all of those who wont be in the 31, is now to stay injury free. Best not risking game time. The chance of any one reserve being called up is low, but if needed, to sit on the bench or play a few minutes of a minor game you need them healthy first, match sharp second. What you dont want is going down to your 5th ot 6th choice scrum half because Marmion has injured himself playing friendlys for Connaught.

The aim is to play in front of members of the Irish staff against Munster, doing well, have the cap for Wales, and snatch the 3rd spot in the end.

21-08-2015 07:27AM

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Despite playing inside centre successfully towards the end of the 2012/2013 season, Madigan isn't really a Joe 12. Joe prefers a power runner at 12. One solution could be to take McFadden as wing/12 cover. He was good at 12 under Schmidt at Leinster - notably against Bath when Leinster won 52-27

There's not much evidence of this. Gordon D'Arcy has started more games at 12 under Schmidt than anyone, are you saying he's a power runner? Schmidt also played Madigan at 12 a couple of times outside Sexton for Leinster.

phog · 21-08-2015 07:49AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

2 9s makes no sense. If one of the 9s gets injured in a warmup on matchday you have nobody to come into the 23. That's asking for trouble.

I saw a tweet saying Cheika only selected two scrumhalves for his world cup squad. Not saying he's right just mentioning that two might be an option if you think another player can cover or the drop down to 3rd choice is too big.

dub_skav · 21-08-2015 08:08AM

phog wrote: »

I saw a tweet saying Cheika only selected two scrumhalves for his world cup squad. Not saying he's right just mentioning that two might be an option if you think another player can cover or the drop down to 3rd choice is too big.

Not that I believe it would be a good idea, but Giteau has played scrum half before.
Very much like the suggestion for Madigan to cover, but with a little experience at least.

Edit: Just looked at the squad, Cheika's not afraid of a few surprises and the selections show not to read too much into warm up matches.
Only 2 hookers is a bigger risk if you ask me.

flangemeistro · 21-08-2015 08:11AM

"Cheika has opted to roll the dice and pick not just two specialist halfbacks in Will Genia and Nick Phipps,"

I wonder would anyone on here be brave enough to call Cheika stupendously stupid?

total former · 21-08-2015 08:15AM

flangemeistro wrote: »

"Cheika has opted to roll the dice and pick not just two specialist halfbacks in Will Genia and Nick Phipps,"

I wonder would anyone on here be brave enough to call Cheika stupendously stupid?

If he didn't have Matt Giteau, I would.

But he does.

.ak · 21-08-2015 08:21AM

flangemeistro wrote: »

"Cheika has opted to roll the dice and pick not just two specialist halfbacks in Will Genia and Nick Phipps,"

I wonder would anyone on here be brave enough to call Cheika stupendously stupid?

I will.

I don't care if Giteau has scrumhalf experience, Genia has just had knee surgery and despite White being so hot and cold he'll still provide a better service than Giteau.

Did he take an extra forward for White or an extra back?

Buer · 21-08-2015 08:24AM

Tara Small Yawn wrote: »

There's not much evidence of this. Gordon D'Arcy has started more games at 12 under Schmidt than anyone, are you saying he's a power runner? Schmidt also played Madigan at 12 a couple of times outside Sexton for Leinster.

Leinster didn't have that player, though. It doesn't mean Schmidt doesn't have a fondness for one. He was never going to be allowed to bring in a high quality, power 12 when he had the Irish test 12 in his team.

However, he brought in Goodman (well over 6ft and over 100kg) as well as giving Eamon Sheridan his full debut and an additional year in the academy. He also oversaw the plan to transition Jordan Coghlan to a centre. Now he has Robbie Henshaw at 12.

There's a decent amount of evidence to suggest he's a fan of playing a lump at 12 all be it one that can pass.

total former · 21-08-2015 08:32AM

Buer wrote: »

Leinster didn't have that player, though. It doesn't mean Schmidt doesn't have a fondness for one. He was never going to be allowed to bring in a high quality, power 12 when he had the Irish test 12 in his team.

However, he brought in Goodman (well over 6ft and over 100kg) as well as giving Eamon Sheridan his full debut and an additional year in the academy. He also oversaw the plan to transition Jordan Coghlan to a centre. Now he has Robbie Henshaw at 12.

There's a decent amount of evidence to suggest he's a fan of playing a lump at 12 all be it one that can pass.

Not sure. Goodman was big enough but not a power centre by any means. Sheridan got close to zero game time even when fit.

Most recently, he picked Noel Reid for the RWC squad when he had Marshal and McCloskey available to him.

I think he picks Henshaw because he's the best player available and not because he fits some template of what Joe wants.

Buer · 21-08-2015 08:33AM

.ak wrote: »

I will. I don't care if Giteau has scrumhalf experience, Genia has just had knee surgery and despite White being so hot and cold he'll still provide a better service than Giteau.

Giteau doesn't just have experience there, though. He has a number of test starts in the position and did reasonably well there even if it was quite some time ago.

I don't think there's too much problem with him being there as 3rd choice to allow greater flexibility. If someone does cop an injury, White can be called up.

If we had someone with his experience at 9, I'd readily select them ahead of Marmion or Boss.

flangemeistro · 21-08-2015 08:39AM

.ak wrote: »

I will.

I don't care if Giteau has scrumhalf experience, Genia has just had knee surgery and despite White being so hot and cold he'll still provide a better service than Giteau.

Did he take an extra forward for White or an extra back?

Only two specialist hookers as well, in Stephen Moore and Tatafu Polota-Nau.
17 forwards and 14 backs, but included five props.

Buer · 21-08-2015 08:40AM

total former wrote: »

Not sure. Goodman was big enough but not a power centre by any means. Sheridan got close to zero game time even when fit.

Most recently, he picked Noel Reid for the RWC squad when he had Marshal and McCloskey available to him.

I think he picks Henshaw because he's the best player available and not because he fits some template of what Joe wants.

Goodman was an outhalf as well as a centre but was used to crash it up a fair few times. I recall the Clermont game at home (the one we lost) where he went on crash ball repeatedly and did well at it too.

Regarding Henshaw, he's the one I'd see as the strongest evidence. He's the best we have there but he's also someone that never played 12 before but Schmidt selected him there. It raised a lot of eyebrows at the time.

Fair call on Reid.

.ak · 21-08-2015 08:43AM

Goodman was most definitely used as a battering-ram big 12.

Hype710 · 21-08-2015 08:56AM

Have Argentina only selected two scrum halves too?

bilston · 21-08-2015 09:02AM

Can someone educate me on Madigan's ability to play scrum half please? Has he ever dpne it before?

irishbucsfan · 21-08-2015 09:04AM

bilston wrote: »

Can someone educate me on Madigan's ability to play scrum half please? Has he ever dpne it before?

Madigan has about the equivalent experience at scrum half as Denis Leamy had at 12.

.ak · 21-08-2015 09:06AM

bilston wrote: »

Can someone educate me on Madigan's ability to play scrum half please? Has he ever dpne it before?

He's done it a couple of times at the end of games, think he did it for Ireland under Kidney as well. I think we're talking minutes worth of experience, not games, in total.

Like, he has all the skillsets; nippy accurate pass, can pass off both hands, quick, agile, has a brilliant break and a low centre of gravity.

If he was born in France he'd be a 9.5 without doubt.

But he wasn't. So therefore he has no real experience at 9, nor has he trained at 9, and the position requires smarts and understanding more so than skill.

21-08-2015 09:07AM

Tara Small Yawn wrote: »

There's not much evidence of this. Gordon D'Arcy has started more games at 12 under Schmidt than anyone, are you saying he's a power runner? Schmidt also played Madigan at 12 a couple of times outside Sexton for Leinster.

D'arcy is better in traffic the last couple of years, he hasn't the step and pace he had, but he is excellent at pumping his legs in the tackle and getting an extra few yards. Usually recycles well also so whilst he doesn't have the stats to back it up, he certainly used the playstyle.

You also don't split up a pairing of the experience of BOD / Darcy until you have to, and I think BOD's final season we were just about at that point.

total former · 21-08-2015 09:13AM

.ak wrote: »

Goodman was most definitely used as a battering-ram big 12.

And Clint Newland played prop a few times. That doesn't mean Joe loves sh*t players.

He picks the best guy for the job, if that's a big strapping 12 or a fancy-dan footballing type, then that's who he picks.

.ak · 21-08-2015 09:18AM

total former wrote: »

And Clint Newland played prop a few times. That doesn't mean Joe loves sh*t players.

He picks the best guy for the job, if that's a big strapping 12 or a fancy-dan footballing type, then that's who he picks.

I don't disagree, but I think he has a preference for big 1st centres. There may be a few exceptions to that but I think his first preference will always be for the bigger guy. He's obviously not going to pick the bigger guy if he isn't good enough though.

If Henshaw picks up an for example I reckon Payne will shift over and Earls will come in at 13.

Infact, Henshaw is a great example... He's had loads of experience at 13/15 but Joe moves him to 12...

molloyjh · 21-08-2015 09:19AM

total former wrote: »

And Clint Newland played prop a few times. That doesn't mean Joe loves sh*t players.

He picks the best guy for the job, if that's a big strapping 12 or a fancy-dan footballing type, then that's who he picks.

If you look at who in the Academy he tried to develop though you can see a clear enough pattern of looking for big 12s. His options in that regard were very limited and so he had to look at other options, but he invested a good deal of time behind the scenes on guys like Sheridan and Coughlan. Joe can work with whatever is available but I think he does prefer bigger centres.

Awesomeness · 21-08-2015 09:21AM

Bit of a change in discussion. Instead of talking about who our 3rd choice sh will be and prob wont see much game time what about the players that will. Who do we think will be out stand out player,

I feel after Johnny injuries and time in france this could be his time to really show that he is one of the top 2 outhalves in world rugby

.ak · 21-08-2015 09:25AM

Awesomeness wrote: »

Bit of a change in discussion. Instead of talking about who our 3rd choice sh will be and prob wont see much game time what about the players that will. Who do we think will be out stand out player,

I feel after Johnny injuries and time in france this could be his time to really show that he is one of the top 2 outhalves in world rugby

Yeah there was an interview done with him the other day, his head seems to be in a good place and he reckons he's had the first proper pre-season in 2 years and his body is in peak condition.

I do think he'll still manage to surprise some people. I think a lot of people outside of Europe haven't seen his best; they wouldn't have followed him for Leinster and to be honest he's never really reached his best for Ireland mostly because of the Kidney setup didn't suit him and because there's a big element of Joe's team still finding their feet. He's had flashes, but he hasn't really had the opportunity to show what he's capable of.

With a full 6n under his belt inside of the same two centres and now a proper pre-season I'm hoping he's able to click with those around him a bit more. Yes, he's kicking game is outstanding right now, but he has a wonderful strength in his ability to read his outside backs so well. Once he's on the same level with them I think we'll see him step up another gear.

Yeah_Right · 21-08-2015 09:26AM

dub_skav wrote: »

Not that I believe it would be a good idea, but Giteau has played scrum half before.
Very much like the suggestion for Madigan to cover, but with a little experience at least.

Edit: Just looked at the squad, Cheika's not afraid of a few surprises and the selections show not to read too much into warm up matches.
Only 2 hookers is a bigger risk if you ask me.

I think Phipps played his way off the plane in Sydney. He was so bad I thought he had money on the All Blacks. In Auckland Giteau was the back up half back. I guess it was too late to bring anyone else in and to be honest, I can't think of another Aussie hb worth the call up.

It's a very different situation to Ireland so I don't see Joe following that example.

Only 2 hookers! Madness.

Apologies, just saw the squad. Phipps is in ahead of White. I had just assumed it was the other way round.

Clearlier · 21-08-2015 09:35AM

Awesomeness wrote: »

Bit of a change in discussion. Instead of talking about who our 3rd choice sh will be and prob wont see much game time what about the players that will. Who do we think will be out stand out player,

I feel after Johnny injuries and time in france this could be his time to really show that he is one of the top 2 outhalves in world rugby

Why not the top outhalf? Now that Carter's form has dropped who is there left that he couldn't be better than?

Yeah_Right · 21-08-2015 09:39AM

Clearlier wrote: »

Why not the top outhalf? Now that Carter's form has dropped who is there left that he couldn't be better than?

Over the last year or so, I would have rated Sexton as the number 1 OH in the world. However after Carter's performance last weekend there is debate again.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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