Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

carter10 · 19-08-2015 08:28AM

Giveitfong wrote: »

Seamus Power's equalising goal in the 1959 All-Ireland final has to be top of the list.
Paul Flynn's late equalising goal in the drawn 1992 All-Ireland under 21 final.
Seamus Prendergast's winning point in the 2004 Munster final.
Tom Casey's fantastic points from either touchline in atrocious conditions in the 1974 Munster under 21 Munster final against Clare.
Growler Daly's late winning points against Clare in the 1992 Munster Under 21 final
Stephen Molumphy's miraculous late goal in the drawn All-Ireland quarter final against Cork in 2007.
Pauric Mahony's winning point in this year's League semi-final against Tipperary.
Paudie Prendergast's last-gasp equaliser in the league opener against Limerick earlier this year - if we had lost that game what would have transpired afterwards?

Did Paul Flynn score a late equaliser against Offaly in the drawn u21 final? I could have sworn Growler Daly scored all our goals that day

deiseach · 19-08-2015 08:57AM

carter10 wrote: »

Did Paul Flynn score a late equaliser against Offaly in the drawn u21 final? I could have sworn Growler Daly scored all our goals that day

Flynn got a late goal to put us 4-4 to 0-14 up.

KevIRL · 19-08-2015 08:58AM

Each of Paul Flynn's 3 goals in our crucial win over Kerry in 1993....

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 12:22PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/tony-browne-waterford-playing-catch-up-at-u21-grade-349032.html

Brilliant piece by Browne

I mentioned this last week huge huge importance under twenty one had and some though I was winding people up or digging at waterford failure this year

Proven again I wasn't all I was doing was saying what needed to be said and saying what Gleasson said and now brown said today

Brilliant point he makes all talk waterford under age been better other counties while it's good he's right absoultey right fans need be careful as he's words perception is a dangerous thing

He's right and imo as I said last week this perception waterford have young talent is no good imo unless win under twenty one soon

For that reason I think winning Munster under twenty one more important winning senior munster titles as proven again this year Munster now no relevance to all ireland none at all

Next year's aim get munster senior final back in all ireland series and win munster under twenty one title
I was told it's too narrow aim expect waterford win under twenty one title no its not imo in its a realistic perfectly plausible to expect based on minor team but need structure as Browne said

Cork need to win under twenty one for senior success
Waterford have to also
Limerick this year have won one and deserve huge credit for it

blueflame · 19-08-2015 01:26PM

Paper doesn't refuse ink and much of what is written in articles such as this is the reporters interpretation of what is said by the person interviewed. While we should be trying to focus on winning the U21 we cannot turn it into a "sh1t or bust" effort, as this is putting all your eggs in one basket.

In my view the main problem with our U-21 set up over the last three years is that too many of the U-21 set up have been parachuted into the senior squad prematurely in some cases, and the overlap has been too great. The obvious emphasis is going to be on Senior but this deprives the U-21 of proper structure. There was massive effort and resources put into U-21 this year but the success at senior level had a negative impact on availability. It is now too late to reverse this process withthe current crop as next year you are going to have at least 5/6 of senior panel involved in U-21s. Do you see the two Bennetts, Curran, Gleeson, Devine, Kearney or Foran being told to step back and focus on U21, not a chance.

We do however have to take stock and stop pushing lads onto senior panel before they are ready. We have to have a serious think about using the U-21 as a programme to develop these lads in a patient and structured manner before becoming involved in a full blown senior set up. For example next year you will be likely to hear voices calling for Darragh or Calum Lyons or Conor Prunty to be included in the senior squad, but this would in my view be to the detriment of the U21s and the player themselves. When we won the Minor All Ireland two years ago, we faced a huge test from an excellent Limerick side, how many of those are appearing regularly for the Limerick Senior side? How many of the Tipp, Cork or Kilkenny minors are now involved at senior level. Were we truly that much better that we can now have at least 6 of them involved on our senior panel, or did we just rush them through. Therein lies the big question.

There are those who will argue that we didn't have the time or panel to wait and they will say if they are young enough they are good enough - I wonder the opposite are we burning them out before they are truly ready -

I was interested to read Tony's comment when he said "U21 was my grade" - how many of the current senior squad really felt that this year, and how much was this though promoted by the Senior Management?

Alf Tupper · 19-08-2015 01:31PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/tony-browne-waterford-playing-catch-up-at-u21-grade-349032.html

Brilliant piece by Browne

I mentioned this last week huge huge importance under twenty one had and some though I was winding people up or digging at waterford failure this year

Proven again I wasn't all I was doing was saying what needed to be said and saying what Gleasson said and now brown said today

Brilliant point he makes all talk waterford under age been better other counties while it's good he's right absoultey right fans need be careful as he's words perception is a dangerous thing

He's right and imo as I said last week this perception waterford have young talent is no good imo unless win under twenty one soon

For that reason I think winning Munster under twenty one more important winning senior munster titles as proven again this year Munster now no relevance to all ireland none at all

Next year's aim get munster senior final back in all ireland series and win munster under twenty one title
I was told it's too narrow aim expect waterford win under twenty one title no its not imo in its a realistic perfectly plausible to expect based on minor team but need structure as Browne said

Cork need to win under twenty one for senior success
Waterford have to also
Limerick this year have won one and deserve huge credit for it

Winning an U21 is no guarantee of success at Senior. The converse is also true - not winning one is no guarantee of not winning a Senior.

The Clare team that won the '95 and 97 (and should have won the 98) All Irelands never won an under 21 - never even got to a final.

The same with the great Offaly team of that era.

Just look at Limerick's 3 in a row U21s between 2000 and 2002 and their subsequent failure win a Senior.

Galway have won three or four U21s since 88 (their last Senior success) but have yet to win a Senior.

The U21 championship is an entity in itself, nothing more and nothing less. It holds no guarantee of anything after.

TGV · 19-08-2015 05:56PM

Kerry footballers have been very poor underage many years including u21 but it doesn't stop them winning an All-Ireland every other year. Galway and Tipp very strong in hurling underage but can't convert this into senior medals.

It would be nice to win at u-21 but with a small pool of players and the knock nature of u-21 it is very difficult.

A lot of the younger players need a bit of time to build strength but I do not think any county would forgo the senior championship to win an u21.

So I guess we will have to wait a year or two but I believe with these players we can win a senior all-Ireland in the next 2-3 years.

PTH2009 · 19-08-2015 05:59PM

hopefully Austin Gleeson doesnt become another Eoin Kelly (waterford) type. Hopefully in about 10/12 years time we are not saying what could of been regarding Gleeson

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 06:12PM

TGV wrote: »

Kerry footballers have been very poor underage many years including u21 but it doesn't stop them winning an All-Ireland every other year. Galway and Tipp very strong in hurling underage but can't convert this into senior medals.

It would be nice to win at u-21 but with a small pool of players and the knock nature of u-21 it is very difficult.

A lot of the younger players need a bit of time to build strength but I do not think any county would forgo the senior championship to win an u21.

So I guess we will have to wait a year or two but I believe with these players we can win a senior all-Ireland in the next 2-3 years.

Comparing kerry to waterford is apples and oranges as kerry have a culture of success and traditional at senior that easy for them in waterford don't have so under age is step to climb the ladder to reach the summit imo

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 06:19PM

TGV wrote: »

Kerry footballers have been very poor underage many years including u21 but it doesn't stop them winning an All-Ireland every other year. Galway and Tipp very strong in hurling underage but can't convert this into senior medals.

It would be nice to win at u-21 but with a small pool of players and the knock nature of u-21 it is very difficult.

A lot of the younger players need a bit of time to build strength but I do not think any county would forgo the senior championship to win an u21.

So I guess we will have to wait a year or two but I believe with these players we can win a senior all-Ireland in the next 2-3 years.

There is nothing to show imo from these players or management that they can win an all ireland yet in the future

As brown said perception dangerous thing
Perception is waterford talent is better than others
If so perfectly attainable and reasonable expect munster under twenty one
Some say it's cut throat harder win under twenty one well if that's the attuide what do they think will happen when have beat kk win senior all ireland
Kk most ruthless team in the land to be fair

Waterford need confidence from under twenty one win senior
Winning munster senior will do nothing imo just like done limerick or cork no good but created false dawns
Winning munster under twenty one gives lads sustainable consistent process to progress of real adaption and evolution to dynamic success modern elite sport that gives them a culture of sustainable success in line procession to senior to help and allied to good senior tactics at management level can give them chance senior all ireland glory imo

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 06:19PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

hopefully Austin Gleeson doesnt become another Eoin Kelly (waterford) type. Hopefully in about 10/12 years time we are not saying what could of been regarding Gleeson

Gleasson will be a great great really really great players
No worries there

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 06:22PM

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Winning an U21 is no guarantee of success at Senior. The converse is also true - not winning one is no guarantee of not winning a Senior.

The Clare team that won the '95 and 97 (and should have won the 98) All Irelands never won an under 21 - never even got to a final.

The same with the great Offaly team of that era.

Just look at Limerick's 3 in a row U21s between 2000 and 2002 and their subsequent failure win a Senior.

Galway have won three or four U21s since 88 (their last Senior success) but have yet to win a Senior.

The U21 championship is an entity in itself, nothing more and nothing less. It holds no guarantee of anything after.

Galway have always been a rare exception

Limerick never had senior structure then to help transition

Donegal football cork football clare recent success all helped under twenty one success

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 06:31PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Galway have always been a rare exception

Limerick never had senior structure then to help transition

Donegal football cork football clare recent success all helped under twenty one success

Actually screw this I'm not getting involved

Alf Tupper · 19-08-2015 08:02PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Comparing kerry to waterford is apples and oranges as kerry have a culture of success and traditional at senior that easy for them in waterford don't have so under age is step to climb the ladder to reach the summit imo

Clare and Offaly had no culture of success at Senior level, yet they managed to win All Irelands without ever winning U21s.

With respect, winning an U21 is not the be all and end all for Waterford. I'm not saying that we wouldn't be delighted to win one but it's way more important for us, having a very small hurling population, to keep a conveyor belt of talent coming through, which I think we are doing at last. imo!

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 08:12PM

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Clare and Offaly had no culture of success at Senior level, yet they managed to win All Irelands without ever winning U21s.

With respect, winning an U21 is not the be all and end all for Waterford. I'm not saying that we wouldn't be delighted to win one but it's way more important for us, having a very small hurling population, to keep a conveyor belt of talent coming through, which I think we are doing at last. imo!

I agree with offaly and it's valid point

Offaly made break through when kk man Healy came in changed their legacy and remember game hadn't level it has now either with kk etc

Clare yes good example but kk weren't kk now in cody changes hurling new level

Bringing through talent is no good unless you harness and cultivate winning mentally attuide essential to the team now trying to beat kk

Cork been bridging through individual loom the last few years but no success under age

Under age success develop leadership young age

I'm not saying they have to win the all ireland
Im saying munster should be attainable
How is it limerick won it this year
Surely you see my point

Alf Tupper · 19-08-2015 08:47PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Under age success develop leadership young age

I'm not saying they have to win the all ireland
Im saying munster should be attainable
How is it limerick won it this year
Surely you see my point

Of course Munster U21 is attainable., but firstly we need a decent Manager and backroom team and way more cooperation between our Senior and U21 Management. When you have huge egos at play as there is at the moment, this is never going to happen.

What transpired this year at U21 level above in Ennis was keystone cops stuff.

Tom Devine playing wing back on Bobby Duggan and basically being f*cked around in different positions out the field by management , Austin Gleason playing the last 15 minutes on his own inside full forward. Michael Harney being substituted at half time, mar dhea that he was injured, so that a certain player could be brought on.

I could go on and on but then I hear that we are going to have the same set up for next years U21 and I just despair.

As I said weeks ago, Pat McGrath was so right when he said that you should never be over a team when you have someone belong to you on it.

archieknox · 19-08-2015 10:28PM

With regards to the u21 management for next year if the same manager is there then we'll be in serious trouble. It doesn't give me any pleasure in saying that as he's a Dungarvan man but realistically he's so out of his dept its frightening but the unfortunate thing is he is the only person that doesn't realise it. If James O Connor doesn't win a county for us this year and is removed from his post I can tell you now the players will not be approaching the man in question anytime soon, and in that should tell you enough about him. No proven record whatsoever but well able to bulls**t and this is what seems to be getting him these positions.
His son imo deserves to be part of the set up though and I don't think he deserves to be tarnished with the same brush.
The problem with these Muppets getting these jobs is that there seems to be no structure appointing them at u12 upwards so when they step forward for these positions there's no opposition as the roles need to be filled but leaving them with these panels all the way to minor is futile although 2013 is an exception! These positions need to be examined year on year to see what progress,if any,is being made. Also,just because you have had a tremendous career at inter county level doesn't automatically make you a decent coach/selector at inter county level!. Liam O Connor was another that was despatched of too soon at underage level as he didn't seem to fit in with a certain board member and there again is another problem! Paul Flynn has won u21 counties as a manager with Ballygunner along with training Carlow and Down so surely he deserves a crack at it next year if he was interested? Kevin Ryan another guy with experience that I'm sure could lend a valuable hand if approached also.

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 10:41PM

Knew a couple of lads on the u21 panel never heard them complain about Lyons. They were very happy with Mullane as coach. Was the reason he got the minor job and not Sean Power not because he was with them all the way up?

Some people love Chuck O Connor here, really not sure I'd share the view particularly after hearing of his treatment of one player who should have been a mainstay on the 2011 minor team.

Alf Tupper · 19-08-2015 10:58PM

Mountainlad wrote: »

Knew a couple of lads on the u21 panel never heard them complain about Lyons. They were very happy with Mullane as coach. Was the reason he got the minor job and not Sean Power not because he was with them all the way up?

Can you honestly say that you were happy with what transpired above in Ennis.

A logistical f*ck up of mammoth proportions.

Lyons on the bus telling the players that there were three different game plans and running out of time to tell them the third one.

I ask you, three different game plans!!!

I wonder which one of them included Aussie standing on the edge of the square on his own for the last 15 minutes.

You couldn't make this stuff up, players going out on the pitch asking the water carrier what their job was.

That's the level of ineptitude you're talking about!!

Unfortunately in Waterford, unlike Kerry, this stuff isn't aired on the local radio station!!

WLR live in happy clappy neverland and are content to play jingles with sound bites of bulls*it commentary rather than have a decent analysis of what is really happening in Waterford hurling.

Cork isn't the only county to have stooges and yes men!!

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 11:06PM

Didn't see the match. I think in paper they looked like they should be winning it to be fair.

I'm just relaying what I had heard though Ive heard no specifics from Ennis. Naturally the question of reappointment would arise given the disappointment of the campaign.

But we've had this debate before Alf. McGrath has a more proven track record to have been able to defend but from the outside I thought Lyons did very well with the minors last year. I'd certainly like Mullane to stay involved from what I heard.

I don't know whether he should or shouldn't stay ultimately, but too often I feel that when something goes wrong in Waterford that there's always something about a camp in disarray and the manager is a disaster, it always seems to lack balance. What you said about Pat McGrath and having a son on the team, well I think that would be a totally unfair stick to beat him on this occasion as Darragh Lyons merited inclusion. Certainly, his inclusion by no means cost Waterford a place in the Munster Final.

Alf Tupper · 19-08-2015 11:31PM

Mountainlad wrote: »

I'm just relaying what I had heard though Ive heard no specifics from Ennis. Naturally the question of reappointment would arise given the disappointment of the campaign.

What you said about Pat McGrath and having a son on the team, well I think that would be a totally unfair stick to beat him on this occasion as Darragh Lyons merited inclusion. Certainly, his inclusion by no means cost Waterford a place in the Munster Final.

It doesn't matter ML, Caesar's wife must be seen to be above suspicion. Even if he was up to the task, which he evidently isn't, it's no place for him. The substitution of Micheal Harney only adds fuel to the calls of nepotism.

This is no reflection on his son, who is a fine hurler, but do you think this does him any favours.

Paul Flynn was available to take the job but was overlooked for this guy.

Kieran Power, his own clubman, walked off the panel. Seanie Barry went to America and we were left with a young minor outfield player in goal above in Ennis, who by the way acquitted himself admirably under the circumstances.

This, after beating a pathetic Cork side, says it all about his managerial skills.

Whatever you say about Chuck, this never happened under his watch. I don't have an issue if you name the player that you allege he treated badly at minor level.

To me, Chuck's only problem was that he was too straight for the gombeen man he had to deal with at County Board level.

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 11:43PM

Alf Tupper wrote: »

It doesn't matter ML, Caesar's wife must be seen to be above suspicion. Even if he was up to the task, which he evidently isn't, it's no place for him. The substitution of Micheal Harney only adds fuel to the calls of nepotism.

This is no reflection on his son, who is a fine hurler, but do you think this does him any favours.

Paul Flynn was available to take the job but was overlooked for this guy.

Kieran Power, his own clubman, walked off the panel. Seanie Barry went to America and we were left with a young minor outfield player in goal above in Ennis, who by the way acquitted himself admirably under the circumstances.

This, after beating a pathetic Cork side, says it all about his managerial skills.

Whatever you say about Chuck, this never happened under his watch. I don't have an issue if you name the player that you allege he treated badly at minor level.

To me, Chuck's only problem was that he was too straight for the gombeen man he had to deal with at County Board level.

I won't name thee player as it wasn't from him I heard it no do I think that would be fair but if you look a bit closer at the teamsheets in post match reports I'd say it would be easy guess.

robopaddy2 · 20-08-2015 02:10AM

Thought myself first day that Lyons was a poor appointment. Sure he was over the minors last year, but only wound up in that job in the first place because he was involved with the development squads up along with the group that his son was in. who may I add is an excellent young hurler. It seemed like it was the handiest option to just keep Lyons there up through the ranks when you should be looking for the best man for the job. The long term future is far more important than a quick-fix. Its good to have parents as volunteers involved in the underage development squad side of things. But as lads get older you need higher quality coaches involved to bring it onto the next level. Lyons himself never hurled much was more of a footballer with Dungarvan in the old days when they barely had a hurling team. Had pretty much no coaching pedigree, only that he was a reliable volunteer for the younglads. Other counties, take Limerick for example are bringing in top quality personnel to take over minor and underage teams.

As regards winning an u21 being the be-all and end-all, if we were to win one this was the year to do it. Limerick won it having not done anything at minor grade 3 years ago. We beat Clare the last 3 years running at minor and couldn't beat them in the u21 grade. Cork and Tipp both went out tamely. Limerick will now have a super team for the next 2/3 years at this grade. While we still have a very good team next year, we will find it hard to make the breakthrough with them hanging around, and given the quality of guys they will have on the line we are at a disadvantage.

archieknox · 20-08-2015 07:31AM

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Thought myself first day that Lyons was a poor appointment. Sure he was over the minors last year, but only wound up in that job in the first place because he was involved with the development squads up along with the group that his son was in. who may I add is an excellent young hurler. It seemed like it was the handiest option to just keep Lyons there up through the ranks when you should be looking for the best man for the job. The long term future is far more important than a quick-fix. Its good to have parents as volunteers involved in the underage development squad side of things. But as lads get older you need higher quality coaches involved to bring it onto the next level. Lyons himself never hurled much was more of a footballer with Dungarvan in the old days when they barely had a hurling team. Had pretty much no coaching pedigree, only that he was a reliable volunteer for the younglads. Other counties, take Limerick for example are bringing in top quality personnel to take over minor and underage teams.

As regards winning an u21 being the be-all and end-all, if we were to win one this was the year to do it. Limerick won it having not done anything at minor grade 3 years ago. We beat Clare the last 3 years running at minor and couldn't beat them in the u21 grade. Cork and Tipp both went out tamely. Limerick will now have a super team for the next 2/3 years at this grade. While we still have a very good team next year, we will find it hard to make the breakthrough with them hanging around, and given the quality of guys they will have on the line we are at a disadvantage.

Fully agree. Exactly what I was saying and you are right this year was the year we should have pushed on at u21. Giveitfong had an excellent post following our defeat where the stats that he came up with really showed the manager up for his inabilities at this level.

archieknox · 20-08-2015 07:45AM

Mountainlad wrote: »

Knew a couple of lads on the u21 panel never heard them complain about Lyons. They were very happy with Mullane as coach. Was the reason he got the minor job and not Sean Power not because he was with them all the way up?

Some people love Chuck O Connor here, really not sure I'd share the view particularly after hearing of his treatment of one player who should have been a mainstay on the 2011 minor team.

I also spoke to some of our own lads on the panel and I can tell you what you heard is alot different to what I was told! Any man that gave over 50mins speaking to the group at training where anyone in charge of successful teams would tell you that short,sharp and to the point is what's needed to keep players attentions. But their biggest gripe was the bare face lies spun to them and as you know when you lose the players respect its time to hit for the hills. As one player said" he loves the sound of his own voice but what a man to talk sh**e!! Oh and also threatened players that they would be dropped from the panel if they participated in an in house game with the seniors 10 days before the Clare u21 tie leaving the senior squad short a week out from the Munster final. Bottom line here is there should be a progress report done yearly by the county board on these teams to see what progress is being made.

Mountainlad · 20-08-2015 02:54PM

Sure I can't argue I'll take you at your word given you're the same club. Would have to be ranked as a disappointing result anyway and that's the bottom line for evaluation.

Id say though you'll always have a few lads unhappy on any panel, and that particularly comes to the fore when they lose. I'd just have to have some skepticism in Waterford because there's stories about trouble with managers year in year out. I could list about 6. Maybe i should even dial back what I thought about Chuck on that basis, though again using performance as a baseline I don't think they got the best out of themselves that year.

Mountainlad · 20-08-2015 03:10PM

Kev you asked before why I don't like Antrim, here's the reason.

http://m.hoganstand.com/Home/Details/242857

I feel sorry for Kevin Ryan, he's basically wasted 3 years of his time up there.

danganabu · 20-08-2015 03:53PM

archieknox wrote: »

Oh and also threatened players that they would be dropped from the panel if they participated in an in house game with the seniors 10 days before the Clare u21 tie leaving the senior squad short a week out from the Munster final.

If that is true then you have touched on a far bigger issue tbh, all managment teams in the county should be working in tandem for the greater good of the county, there should be regualr contact between the management set-ups and none of these conflict of interests. Of course it is only the county board who can insist and oversee this.

robopaddy2 · 20-08-2015 04:17PM

Mountainlad wrote: »

Kev you asked before why I don't like Antrim, here's the reason.

http://m.hoganstand.com/Home/Details/242857

I feel sorry for Kevin Ryan, he's basically wasted 3 years of his time up there.

They seem to be in dire straights alright but I don't think Ryan was ever strong enough for the task at hand to be brutally honest. Running to the media to complain 3 days before an AI semi is not the answer. Wouldnt be too sympathetic hes been well looked after financially from what i hear. Bottom line is they have regressed badly under his watch over the past 3 or 4 years. While its their job to get their own house in order I think they need a leader from the outside that has the respect of the players. That obviously isn't Ryan.

I hope it does turn for them. i have a lot of time and respect for the genuine hurling people up there.

hurler on de ditch · 20-08-2015 05:51PM

archieknox wrote: »

I also spoke to some of our own lads on the panel and I can tell you what you heard is alot different to what I was told! Any man that gave over 50mins speaking to the group at training where anyone in charge of successful teams would tell you that short,sharp and to the point is what's needed to keep players attentions. But their biggest gripe was the bare face lies spun to them and as you know when you lose the players respect its time to hit for the hills. As one player said" he loves the sound of his own voice but what a man to talk sh**e!! Oh and also threatened players that they would be dropped from the panel if they participated in an in house game with the seniors 10 days before the Clare u21 tie leaving the senior squad short a week out from the Munster final. Bottom line here is there should be a progress report done yearly by the county board on these teams to see what progress is being made.

KK'S strategy for the way forward most things here had to be ticked off before 2010,,,,,,,http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/Downloads/StrategicPlan.pdf

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1