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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1682
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    You don't find it the slightest bit sad that irish will die out? You don't care in the slightest?

    Forcing your language on others because you don't think enough people care about it to keep it alive is a losing proposition to people who don't care about your language.


  • #1683
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    You;ve been accused of strawman arguments frequently enough to know that there is no correlation between what I wrote and your last sentence. FWIW - no, I wouldn't, unless it was the choice of 100% of the population. Not 99.9% - 100%. As that's very unlikely to happen, I don't see a problem.

    Also, please notice that I began my post with the word "either".

    I know there was no connection between that question and the previous post. I just wondered if that's what you want.But you don't seem to care about the language atall, like would it bother you if no one ever spoke it again? Would you like to be able to speak Irish at home?


  • #1684
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    I'm telling you that as an Irish person (if you are) the irish language is part of your identity and heritage

    Elaborate on what you mean by "identiy" and "heritage". I have a very strong individual identity that, for the record, comes from working as an artist. It's nothing to do being Irish though, as there's little or no Irish infleunces in it.

    Do you mean "Irish" as a noun or an adjective?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1685
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    psinno wrote: »
    Forcing your language on others because you don't think enough people care about it to keep it alive is a losing proposition to people who don't care about your language.

    I don't force the language on anyone.But I actually care enough to try to challenge the dismissive attitude of people towards the language.If you simply don't care there's not a lot anyone can do, guess it'll just be another thing Ireland can be scoffed at by other countries.


  • #1686
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    I know there was no connection between that question and the previous post. I just wondered if that's what you want.But you don't seem to care about the language atall, like would it bother you if no one ever spoke it again? Would you like to be able to speak Irish at home?

    If there's no connection, then please refrain from implying one. (Although I accept, this may have been accidental).

    As to your questions:
    I don't see where you've picked up the idea that I don't care about the langauge; i've answered the second one; and not really, but I resepct those who do.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #1687
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I actually think an Irish rounded education needs to include Irish where possible.

    So tell me do you buy into the capitalist view of education that your philosophy implies? Are we to be educated to produce and consume? Can education strive to greater things?!
    You can start a thread about that if you want, yes?
    We're here to discuss whether the Irish language should be forced on the Irish population who clearly don't want to use it.
    You have as yet make pretty much no case at all that Irish "needs" to be included. None.


  • #1688
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    If you simply don't care there's not a lot anyone can do
    Why should anybody even try to do anything? It's none of your business TBH.


  • #1689
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    I don't force the language on anyone.But I actually care enough to try to challenge the dismissive attitude of people towards the language.If you simply don't care there's not a lot anyone can do, guess it'll just be another thing Ireland can be scoffed at by other countries.

    Then stop saying things like "if you are Irish than the language is a part of it".


  • #1690
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Elaborate on what you mean by "identiy" and "heritage". I have a very strong individual identity that, for the record, comes from working as an artist. It's nothing to do being Irish though, as there's little or no Irish infleunces in it.

    Do you mean "Irish" as a noun or an adjective?

    Someone in previous generations of your family spoke irish if they lived in Ireland.Idebtity and heritage is about who you are, it's your roots, your history, where is your sense of pride for being irish?The word irish describes where you came from.You knew the answers to all of your questions. You're just looking to poke holes.


  • #1691
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You can start a thread about that if you want, yes?
    We're here to discuss whether the Irish language should be forced on the Irish population who clearly don't want to use it.
    You have as yet make pretty much no case at all that Irish "needs" to be included. None.

    But as can be clearly seen most of the population are positively disposed to the learning of Irish even after being "forced" to learn it... but not you!

    It also seems you have an educational philosophy which places a high value on being "productive" so it makes sense that you don't want Irish to be mandatory as it isn't "productive" enough for your capitalist tendencies! There's nothing wrong with that - but I don't think I'd like your bean-counter educational approach being forced on our children.


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  • #1692
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why should anybody even try to do anything? It's none of your business TBH.

    Because some people actually care about Irish believe it or not.Some people are passionate about it and want to see it succeed.


  • #1693
    umop apisdn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭umop apisdn


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    I'm telling you that as an Irish person (if you are) the irish language is part of your identity and heritage.

    So why did successive Irish governments and Irish language activists make such a balls of teaching it in our schools compared to other languages ?


  • #1694
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    psinno wrote: »
    Then stop saying things like "if you are Irish than the language is a part of it".

    That's not forcing the language on you.Thats telling you what anyone with a hint self identity knows


  • #1695
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    umop apisdn wrote: »
    So why did successive Irish governments and Irish language activists make such a balls of teaching it in our schools compared to other languages ?

    Yeah I agree that there have been mistakes in how it has been taught.But that can be changed, I don't really know, perhaps they didn't care enough to introduce the subject in a proper way? I think it's a difficult thing to approach, do you have any ideas of how you would like Irish to be taught?


  • #1696
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    But as can be clearly seen most of the population are positively disposed to the learning of Irish even after being "forced" to learn it... but not you!
    Where did you get/fabricate that the population is positively disposed to forced teaching of Irish? Or are you just on strawman duty again?


  • #1697
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    Because some people actually care about Irish believe it or not.Some people are passionate about it and want to see it succeed.
    So because you care about Irish everybody else has to be forced to learn it?
    Gotcha.


  • #1698
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    Someone in previous generations of your family spoke irish if they lived in Ireland.Idebtity and heritage is about who you are, it's your roots, your history, where is your sense of pride for being irish?The word irish describes where you came from.You knew the answers to all of your questions. You're just looking to poke holes.

    No, I'm trying to get your understanding of it and why it's important.

    "Identiy" for me is the collection of my personal experiences of life - both good and bad; myy relationships and interactions with other people and my tastes. This are the things that define Who I Am and what my character is.

    Identiy is not the place I was born or the lanaguge spoken by my forefathers - this has had no influence on me. You may be disappointed to hear this, but what I'm asking you is this: how you think it should?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1699
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Where did you get/fabricate that the population is positively disposed to forced teaching of Irish?

    The ESRI study said that the majority of irish people are positively disposed to the language - even though they have been so "forced" to learn it as you put it...
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Or are you just on strawman duty again?

    Oh no... I'm off duty - sorry am I not being productive enough for you?? :pac:


  • #1700
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    That's not forcing the language on you.Thats telling you what anyone with a hint self identity knows
    Fine, you've told me whatever waffle you had to say.
    Now, what has this to do with forcing me to learn Irish? Is this the new Paddyman's Burden, it being your duty to bring the culture we really want to us even though we all refuse to employ it?


  • #1701
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    No, I'm trying to get your understanding of it and why it's important.

    "Identiy" for me is the collection of my personal experiences of life - both good and bad; myy relationships and interactions with other people and my tastes. This are the things that define Who I Am and what my character is.

    Identiy is not the place I was born or the lanaguge spoken by my forefathers - this has had no influence on me. You may be disappointed to hear this, but what I'm asking you is this: how you think it should?
    No, sorry, you're obviously wrong.

    The other poster clearly knows more about your self-identity than you do.


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  • #1702
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    No, I'm trying to get your understanding of it and why it's important.

    "Identiy" for me is the collection of my personal experiences of life - both good and bad; myy relationships and interactions with other people and my tastes. This are the things that define Who I Am and what my character is.

    Identiy is not the place I was born or the lanaguge spoken by my forefathers - this has had no influence on me. You may be disappointed to hear this, but what I'm asking you is this: how you think it should?

    How do you define your "heritage" PCB?


  • #1703
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    The ESRI study said that the majority of irish people are positively disposed to the language - even though they have been so "forced" to learn it as you put it...
    Which says nothing at all about whether they want it to be forced on people does it? Glad we've cleared that up.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    Oh no... I'm off duty - sorry am I not being productive enough for you?? :pac:
    Like I predicted, you'd be fixated on "productive" instead of the "capable" and "happy" I also mentioned.
    I guess you don't want Irish people to be either of the latter then as you only want to talk about the productive bit?


  • #1704
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Which says nothing at all about whether they want it to be forced on people does it? Glad we've cleared that up.

    Never said it did - go back and read what I said - total red herring!
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Like I predicted, you'd be fixated on "productive" instead of the "capable" and "happy" I also mentioned.
    I guess you don't want Irish people to be either of the latter then as you only want to talk about the productive bit?

    I'm glad you predicted that I choose to expose a certain obvious weakness in your argument (and philosophy in my opinion) - how about you go about addressing it??!! Instead you genuinely accuse me of not wanting Irish people to happy - how spurious is that?? Is this something from the Donald Trump school of arguing?!


  • #1705
    umop apisdn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭umop apisdn


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    Yeah I agree that there have been mistakes in how it has been taught.But that can be changed, I don't really know, perhaps they didn't care enough to introduce the subject in a proper way? I think it's a difficult thing to approach, do you have any ideas of how you would like Irish to be taught?

    I don't think it should be compulsory after junior cert for starters, that just causes a seething resentment as it's so badly taught compared to other languages. I learned far more French and German in school that I ever did Irish, and I was interested in learning Irish. Also I've witnessed native speakers fighting over who pronounces even the most basic phrases correctly, never mind them constantly turning their nose up at anyone outside the Irish Gaeltacht clic that tries to speak it. After seeing all that its a language and clic I want nothing to do with, and would prefer to learn a European language that doesn't have the same barriers and clics going on. If Irish language promoters want to prevent Irish from disappearing completely they need to address these issues and teaching methods, but they have always refused to do so.


  • #1706
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    How do you define your "heritage" PCB?

    I don't really have a definition of it because I've never used it as an argument. This is why I'm asking what people specifcially mean when by "my heritage" despite having never met me.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1707
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    umop apisdn wrote: »
    Also I've witnessed native speakers fighting over who pronounces even the most basic phrases correctly, never mind them constantly turning their nose up at anyone outside the Irish Gaeltacht clic that tries to speak it..... If Irish language promoters want to prevent Irish from disappearing completely they need to address these issues and teaching methods, but they have always refused to do so.

    That's appalling - why are they so elitist? There are normal Irish speakers out there too, much more down to earth - don't let a few dopes turn you off!!


  • #1708
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I'm glad you predicted that I choose to expose a certain obvious weakness in your argument (and philosophy in my opinion) - how about you go about addressing it??!! Instead you genuinely accuse me of not wanting Irish people to happy - how spurious is that?? Is this something from the Donald Trump school of arguing?!
    Fostering happy, capable and productive members of society is an "obvious weakness" because I said they should be productive?
    Go on then, tell us why being productive is a problem in otherwise happy and capable school leavers? This should be good...


  • #1709
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    I don't really have a definition of it because I've never used it as an argument. This is why I'm asking what people specifcially mean when by "my heritage" despite having never met me.

    I think only you can define your identity - whether only you can define your heritage is a more open question - because I think heritage can really only be broken down to a 'clan' level rather than the individual. Heritage seems to be the answer to the question "Who are your people?" - it covers topics such as ancestry, historical culture, intransience etc...


  • #1710
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I think only you can define your identity - whether only you can define your heritage is a more open question - because I think heritage can really only be broken down to a 'clan' level rather than the individual. Heritage seems to be the answer to the question "Who are your people?" - it covers topics such as ancestry, historical culture, intransience etc...


    Fair enough, but the question remains: how does this influence the individual living today?

    It's also important (for me, anyway) that I have the ability to express my self and not my ancestors.

    And this really is the crux of the debate here - defining the difference between self and heritage - as education doesn't allow for this.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #1711
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I think only you can define your identity - whether only you can define your heritage is a more open question - because I think heritage can really only be broken down to a 'clan' level rather than the individual. Heritage seems to be the answer to the question "Who are your people?" - it covers topics such as ancestry, historical culture, intransience etc...
    Then what bearing has "heritage" on what you should be forced to learn at school when it quite possibly has nothing at all to do with your "identity"?


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