The Irish language is failing.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As part of a compulsory English curriculum yes, learning a pivotal literary figure's output is important. Plus how to analyze and interpret, which are skills transferrable to modern English usage.
Wouldn't kill me if they dumped it mind, but still more use than learning a dead language like Irish.

Those transferable skills are in Irish also with the added benefit of a proper grounding in grammar which is wholly missing in the English curriculum. Learning Shakespeare is of no additional benefit going on your criteria. Why not learn the output of pivotal literary figures in both languages I say...

I happen to favour both being compulsory. But that's because of my philosophy of education.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

So are you in favour of compulsory Shakespeare then?

I'm in favour of compulsory English-language education for native English-speakers or Irish speakers who wish to speak English. The inclusion of Shakespeare in the English-language curriculum seems a wise choice

But we digress, we are discussing why the Irish language has failed despite it being compulsory for everyone to learn it. Perhaps it is an Irish cultural trait to rebel against oppressive acts just as we did against the British? This might explain things.

Dughorm

psinno wrote: »

I checked. Shakespeare is optional.

Since when? which exams are you referring to?

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

I'm in favour of compulsory English-language education for native English-speakers or Irish speakers who wish to speak English. The inclusion of Shakespeare in the English-language curriculum seems a wise choice

But Shakespeare isn't useful which seems to be criteria of many speakers here....

I happen to have used a lot more leaving cert Irish than Shakespearean English I tell you! Not that I have anything against Shakespeare!

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

But we digress, we are discussing why the Irish language has failed despite it being compulsory for everyone to learn it. Perhaps it is an Irish cultural trait to rebel against oppressive acts just as we did against the British? This might explain things.

Was learning Shakespeare an oppressive act for you or just part of a decent education? Have you used it since school or are you still rebelling against it?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

But Shakespeare isn't useful which seems to be criteria of many speakers here....

For the 99% of the country who NEVER use Irish after leaving school, Shakespeare is far more useful than Irish.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Was learning Shakespeare an oppressive act for you or just part of a decent education? Have you used it since school or are you still rebelling against it?

If you think you haven't used any English that's been around since Shakespeare you should go back to school TBH.

Dughorm

Deranged96 wrote: »

Is there any point discussing the school system? I think everyone is in agreement that changes have to be made, including optional Irish at LC level.

I don't

Deranged96 wrote: »

Irish culture is more or less, redundant. We lost most of it with Christianity and later on we cast aside some dead weight to become a modern nation.

What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!

Deranged96 wrote: »

I think its time that we allow the Irish language, our most important link to our heritage, a chance. With a competent minister at the helm, good will, prudent expenditure and a good plan, there is no ceiling

What a lovely idea! And with 1916 anniversary coming up what a great opportunity to start!

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

For the 99% of the country who NEVER use Irish after leaving school, Shakespeare is far more useful than Irish.

I genuinely find that hard to believe... depends what you mean by "useful" of course.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you think you haven't used any English that's been around since Shakespeare you should go back to school TBH.

But using your logic, surely I don't need to study Shakespeare to use the English that's been around since Shakespeare's time!

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Was learning Shakespeare an oppressive act for you or just part of a decent education? Have you used it since school or are you still rebelling against it?

Perhaps the reason for the decline in the use of Irish is that the promoters of Irish cannot focus objectively on the issues that brought this about?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

But using your logic, surely I don't need to study Shakespeare to use the English that's been around since Shakespeare's time!

Even if it was only 1% as useful as learning only modern English, it'd still be useful where learning Irish such as hell isn't.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!

All of which employ the English language.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I genuinely find that hard to believe... depends what you mean by "useful" of course.

Useful as in "of use". So you agree that Chinese and Polish are more useful than Irish as more people speak them? And you therefore support those being mandatory for the leaving cert ahead of Irish also?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!

Care to look up "omnipresent" in a dictionary and get back to us there boss?
While you're at it, have a look at your TV schedules, local bookstore and what's on in the cinema and you'll see just how "omnipresent" Irish culture is.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

I think its time that we allow the Irish language, our most important link to our heritage, a chance. With a competent minister at the helm, good will, prudent expenditure and a good plan, there is no ceiling

Except for the small ceiling of nobody wanting to speak Irish as adults because they neither want to nor have to.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for the decline in the use of Irish is that the promoters of Irish cannot focus objectively on the issues that brought this about?

I'm not sure what you're referring to but given you consider that children learning Irish in school at present is "forcing them to speak a language which is not theirs", your posts would hardly be a standard for objectivity!

Deranged96

Dughorm wrote: »

What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!

Bar sport you have to seek out all of the above to come across it.
I honestly think 90% of the country thinks that we're celebrating the centenary of the state next year.. which shows that past rebel names most Irish people are apathetic towards their history.

Which is why we should mind and nurture Irish!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're referring to but given you consider that children learning Irish in school at present is "forcing them to speak a language which is not theirs", your posts would hardly be a standard for objectivity!

You're wrong because you are wrong is quite literally what this response boils down to.
As cultural English speakers, Irish most certainly is not the average Irish person's language. Polish and Chinese have a better claim to that of course, which you'd prefer not to recognise I'm sure.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

All of which employ the English language.

And the Irish language - so why not learn both!

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're wrong because you are wrong is quite literally what this response boils down to.
As cultural English speakers, Irish most certainly is not the average Irish person's language. Polish and Chinese have a better claim to that of course, which you'd prefer not to recognise I'm sure.

Justify?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Useful as in "of use". So you agree that Chinese and Polish are more useful than Irish as more people speak them? And you therefore support those being mandatory for the leaving cert ahead of Irish also?

Nice try - questioning you on your stance is not the same as me accepting it. Do you want me to refer you the posts where I explained my philosophy of education?

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Bar sport you have to seek out all of the above to come across it.
I honestly think 90% of the country thinks that we're celebrating the centenary of the state next year.. which shows that past rebel names most Irish people are apathetic towards their history.
<SOMETHING NEEDS TO GO HERE>
Which is why we should mind and nurture Irish!

Just FYI.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Justify?

More Irish people speak Chinese and Polish than Irish.
You didn't know this?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Nice try - questioning you on your stance is not the same as me accepting it. Do you want me to refer you the posts where I explained my philosophy of education?

Refer to what you like, you haven't said one word about why Irish, a currently dead language, needs forcing on the Irish population whereas more popular languages spoken by Irish people such as Polish and Chinese do not.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

And the Irish language - so why not learn both!

Nobody's stopping you.
Now, why FORCE people to learn both?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're wrong because you are wrong is quite literally what this response boils down to.
As cultural English speakers, Irish most certainly is not the average Irish person's language. Polish and Chinese have a better claim to that of course, which you'd prefer not to recognise I'm sure.

I thought we were culturally Irish, native English speakers in general? Just like the English are culturally English, native English speakers?

Do you not believe Irish culture exists? Or is it simply you feel that you do not belong to it?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Refer to what you like, you haven't said one word about why Irish, a currently dead language, needs forcing on the Irish population whereas more popular languages spoken by Irish people such as Polish and Chinese do not.

But the popularity of a language in Ireland at present is not a reason I think a language should be compulsory? Do you think this is a good idea?

umop apisdn

I recently watched to self proclaimed Irish language experts have a petty argument over the "correct" use of a simple Irish word in front of beginners. This is one of the many reasons Irish has failed in Ireland. I learned far more French and German at school than Irish, and I was interested in learning Irish. The syllabus, books, and method of teaching was abysmal. For petty political and nationalistic reasons, the whole teaching of Irish was and is geared towards pretending we are all native Irish speakers, not people who's first language is actually English. This is why the teaching of Welsh has been a complete success in Wales and a complete failure in Ireland. Two completely different approaches to the same problem. I really wonder at times if the Irish are fit to govern themselves.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

More Irish people speak Chinese and Polish than Irish.
You didn't know this?

In the 2006 census 1.2 million people reported speaking Irish outside of the education system.

Seeing as the republic has a population of about 4.7 million, you cannot be correct.