The Irish language is failing.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Fostering happy, capable and productive members of society is an "obvious weakness" because I said they should be productive?
Go on then, tell us why being productive is a problem in otherwise happy and capable school leavers? This should be good...

You keep ignoring my question whether 'capable' and 'productive' are synonyms to you? Why is that? Capable to what? capable to be productive?

So that leaves us two things: happy and productive/capable.

Happy - it's unclear to me how you propose to educate people to be happy? Sounds sort of coercive - "This is how you're going to be happy!!"

But your reference to productive/capable speaks volumes - it clearly shows what you think the purpose of education is - No "The Idea of a University" for you!! Nothing wrong with being productive but it shouldn't be the primary goal of education!! No wonder the current standing of Irish doesn't fit into your scheme of things!!

umop apisdn

Dughorm wrote: »

That's appalling - why are they so elitist? There are normal Irish speakers out there too, much more down to earth - don't let a few dopes turn you off!!

I was once told its an attempt to try and protect and limit the access to the Irish grants, jobs, etc. , and it's killed off Irish in my opinion.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You keep ignoring my question whether 'capable' and 'productive' are synonyms to you? Why is that? Capable to what? capable to be productive?
So that leaves us two things: happy and productive/capable.

It does if you insist "capable" can only mean "productive" so you can yet again fabricate a strawman. Capable of functioning to a high level in whatever they choose to do would be just as good a definition of capable, yes? Doesn't work for your fixed internal narrative I suppose.

Dughorm wrote: »

Happy - it's unclear to me how you propose to educate people to be happy? Sounds sort of coercive - "This is how you're going to be happy!!"

People with a better education tend to have more fulfilling lives, yes? I never said I would "educate them to be happy", again, more invention on your behalf. I said the end result should be to have them happy, both as individuals and as members of society.

Dughorm wrote: »

But your reference to productive/capable speaks volumes - it clearly shows what you think the purpose of education is - No "The Idea of a University" for you!! Nothing wrong with being productive but it shouldn't be the primary goal of education!! No wonder the current standing of Irish doesn't fit into your scheme of things!!

Bollix really. You've been barking up this "productive" (which you've had to repeatedly lie about me saying was "the primary goal of education") tree for pages now and it reeks of desperation on your behalf to try and get some mud to stick.
Hard luck on being found out so easily.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Then what bearing has "heritage" on what you should be forced to learn at school when it quite possibly has nothing at all to do with your "identity"?

I'm not sure what you are saying here... are you suggesting the education system should facilitate individuals who choose to reject their heritage? Because identity is person specific how can any educational system fit everyone's identity?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying here... are you suggesting the education system should facilitate individuals who choose to reject their heritage? Because identity is person specific how can any educational system fit everyone's identity?

Heritage is historical. The education system should teach people how to function in the modern age. Not how to speak in a language who's heyday ended before we had electricity.

Dan_Solo

@Dughorn
Still waiting to hear what purpose Irish serves in your own "education philosophy" beyond "it's Irish, we're Irish, so, um, ya know."

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It does if you insist "capable" can only mean "productive" so you can yet again fabricate a strawman. Capable of functioning to a high level in whatever they choose to do would be just as good a definition of capable, yes? Doesn't work for your fixed internal narrative I suppose.
People with a better education tend to have more fulfilling lives, yes? I never said I would "educate them to be happy", again, more invention on your behalf. I said the end result should be to have them happy, both as individuals and as members of society.

Bollix really. You've been barking up this "productive" (which you've had to repeatedly lie about me saying was "the primary goal of education") tree for pages now and it reeks of desperation on your behalf to try and get some mud to stick.
Hard luck on being found out so easily.

If you weren't so evasive on defining what you meant by your philosophy we wouldn't need to tease this out! Instead you decide to accuse me of not wanting people to be happy?!! Now that's desperation! What sort of sadist do you think I am?! :pac:

Now that we have a better idea of what your philosophy is... it does sound rather bland - you've taken the capitalist edge off it since I commented on it.

In any case you haven't presented any evidence to show people have been *less* capable or happy studying Irish in school at present.

As well as this, what's your evidence to say that people with a better education tend to have more fulfilling lives? That sounds rather elitist...

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Now that we have a better idea of what your philosophy is... it does sound rather bland - you've taken the capitalist edge off it since I commented on it.

It doesn't sound so capitalist since I insisted you stop reading every word I wrote as CAPITALIST. I can imagine you going through Rorschach cards roaring CAPITALISM!!! at every one...

Dughorm wrote: »

In any case you haven't presented any evidence to show people have been *less* capable or happy studying Irish in school at present.

Have I not? Any chance that would because nobody in the entire thread has asked?
Less capable or happy than *what*? You haven't actually provided a comparator. Want another attempt?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Heritage is historical.

Yes, by definition it has to be...

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The education system should teach people how to function in the modern age.

That sounds so empty as the highest aspiration of education - I suppose you think it should be "practical" and "pragmatic" or even better... "applied"!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not how to speak in a language who's heyday ended before we had electricity.

Given that rural electrification only began in 1955 - that sentence probably sounds more impressive in your head than in reality! Try again!

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

@Dughorn
Still waiting to hear what purpose Irish serves in your own "education philosophy" beyond "it's Irish, we're Irish, so, um, ya know."

I explained that a length some 50 pages ago - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself

Dughorm

umop apisdn wrote: »

I was once told its an attempt to try and protect and limit the access to the Irish grants, jobs, etc. , and it's killed off Irish in my opinion.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It doesn't sound so capitalist since I insisted you stop reading every word I wrote as CAPITALIST. I can imagine you going through Rorschach cards roaring CAPITALISM!!! at every one...

Lol! That has the makings of a good skit there in fairness....

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Have I not? Any chance that would because nobody in the entire thread has asked?
Less capable or happy than *what*? You haven't actually provided a comparator. Want another attempt?

That's up to you - you have marked the key tenants of your philosophy as "capable" and "happy" its up to you to define them. Are you looking to *maximise* capability and happiness like some sort of educational investment product?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Yes, by definition it has to be...

So we should all learn a language that is almost entirely in our history... not getting it I'm afraid.

Dughorm wrote: »

That sounds so empty as the highest aspiration of education - I suppose you think it should be "practical" and "pragmatic" or even better... "applied"!

JFC, you're a bit of a broken record with this one aren't you? So you think education shouldn't make people productive, capable or capable of functioning in modern society? If not, why are you whining about all these terms?

Dughorm wrote: »

Given that rural electrification only began in 1955 - that sentence probably sounds more impressive in your head than in reality! Try again!

Ah yes, add in a word, hope nobody notices and then pretend it rebuts the original proposition.
Gee, imagine if people actually fell for that sort of lameness?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

That's up to you - you have marked the key tenants of your philosophy as "capable" and "happy" its up to you to define them. Are you looking to *maximise* capability and happiness like some sort of educational investment product?

TBH the way you keep introducing these terms like "educational investment product" out of the blue says much more about you that it does about me. Yeah, we get it, you think any curriculum that excludes Irish must be purely utilitarian and churn out robopupils.
Give it a rest. It's embarrassing not to mention tedious at this stage.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I explained that a length some 50 pages ago - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself

Or indeed linking to your previous posts it would seem that are of course, definitely there somewhere. Right beside that time machine schematic I posted earlier no doubt that I don't feel like linking to or repeating right now... yeah, sure.

Sh1tbag OToole

Dughorm wrote: »

Now that we have a better idea of what your philosophy is... it does sound rather bland - you've taken the capitalist edge off it since I commented on it.

The way things are going is rather bland. People look at Irish and think we should get rid of it but soon enough other EU countries will be asking themselves the same question in the next few decades.

Children all over Europe are being 'forced' to learn English despite having little or no interest in it mainly because their governments want them to know it for economic reasons. Then when the population has a certain grasp of English all the bland mass-produced English music and advertising comes in, user interfaces and manuals stop being translated and at that point the native language starts to come under threat. New words in the native language tend to be English loanwords and that language starts to slowly become more and more English.

Maybe places like Malta, Iceland and the Faroe Islands will eventually get rid of their native languages but the economic benefits of such a move will surely be short lived.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So we should all learn a language that is almost entirely in our history... not getting it I'm afraid.

Learning Irish is one of those amazing subjects that actually combines both past and present in a most interesting way once you give it a chance! Did you ever give it an honest go?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

JFC, you're a bit of a broken record with this one aren't you? So you think education shouldn't make people productive, capable or capable of functioning in modern society? If not, why are you whining about all these terms?

Ok, I get that you want people to function - I aspire to education where people transcend mere functionality - a lofty ideal sure but a most wholesome one!

Dan_Solo wrote:

Ah yes, add in a word, hope nobody notices and then pretend it rebuts the original proposition.
Gee, imagine if people actually fell for that sort of lameness?

You're fond of the old "Argumentum ad populum" aren't you! What's really lame is accusing me of not wanting people to be happy! A bizarre statement which really takes from the credibility of your arguments!

Dughorm

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Children all over Europe are being 'forced' to learn English despite having little or no interest in it mainly because their governments want them to know it for economic reasons.

You've some interest points there - but this one i'm not sure of - lots of people I've met were delighted to be learning English because they wanted to go to America for work etc...

Dughorm

Dan,

It's been fun - I'm off now for the night!

Oíche mhaith agus codladh sámh !

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Learning Irish is one of those amazing subjects that actually combines both past and present in a most interesting way once you give it a chance! Did you ever give it an honest go?

What is it with the personalisation and anecdotes all the time with the compulsory Irish crowd? My level of Irish is irrelevant to whether it should be forced on pupils or not.

Dughorm wrote: »

You're fond of the old "Argumentum ad populum" aren't you! What's really lame is accusing me of not wanting people to be happy! A bizarre statement which really takes from the credibility of your arguments!

Well "functional", "productive" and "capable" appear to have sent you into palpitations, so apologies if I thought you saw "happy" and were also screaming EVIL CAPITALISM!!!

Sh1tbag OToole

Dughorm wrote: »

You've some interest points there - but this one i'm not sure of - lots of people I've met were delighted to be learning English because they wanted to go to America for work etc...

The same could be said about any language though. Maybe if I learnt Saami when I was younger I would now be tearing through a forest in Lapland on a snowmobile with a high powered rifle on my back shootin deer like a bawse instead of sitting on boards at this late hour.

Maybe if I actually learnt Irish in school and was able to speak it I would have moved to the Aran Islands or Cape clear and be tearing around on a Currach with an outboard that is really too heavy for it.

Perhaps instead of offering the same boring choices of French, German and Spanish secondary schools should offer the chance to learn at least one obscure language like Catalan, Occitan, Faroese. You'll get a load of sellouts wanting to learn the common languages to slightly increase their chance of getting a job but not everyone thinks like that. At least it would give the obscure and dying languages a chance.

I don't think too many people will be praising us for what a good job we did letting all these pesky languages die in a hundred or so years when everyone speaks only English or Mandarin

Dughorm

Dughorm wrote: »

"Who are your people?"

That's a very Irish question, and one inspired by the Irish language. When I was re-learning Irish, I was slightly bemused but tickled when someone asked me "cé leatsa?" as a way of asking who my family were.

The Irish language has an influence on the way we speak and the way we think - even when we're doing so in English, which is why we speak that language differently to the British.

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

I don't think too many people will be praising us for what a good job we did letting all these pesky languages die in a hundred or so years when everyone speaks only English or Mandarin

You sure about that? The average Irish person is grateful to speak English. The English language is considered one of our greatest national assets, a asset we only posses because our ancestors started speaking English.

I for one am glad my ancestors switched to the old bearla.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I have the ability to express my self and not my ancestors.

Are you sure you're not expressing your ancestors? You probably are giving expression to them in some way if you've heard their stories, as many people get to do. Are you sure that where you were born (or at least where you were raised) really, truly has no part in shaping your identity?

Really sure? Or just saying you're sure because you like the certainty?

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Heritage is historical. The education system should teach people how to function in the modern age.

What's wrong with History? You really have some odd prejudices.

Dughorm

Dughorm wrote: »

Given that rural electrification only began in 1955...

My father grew up in a house in downtown Dundalk that had no leccy in 1945. Dundalk may well be provincial, but it's not rural.

Sh1tbag OToole

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You sure about that? The average Irish person is grateful to speak English. The English language is considered one of our greatest national assets, a asset we only posses because our ancestors started speaking English.

I for one am glad my ancestors switched to the old bearla.

Haha you say it like they had a choice. Quite sure anyway, the 'asset' isn't ours, we don't own or control it. Us speaking English helps other countries that want to flog their wares here more than it helps us

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Haha you say it like they had a choice. Quite sure anyway, the 'asset' isn't ours, we don't own or control it. Us speaking English helps other countries that want to flog their wares here more than it helps us

Of course hey had a choice. They could have chosen to speak Irish in private, or pass it on to their children. They didn't and that could only have been a conscious choice.

We don't control the majority of our assets, we don't control the waves, or the wind or what materials are in our soil but we have control over them none the less, lack of control over an asset does not mean that asset isn't useful.

Also your claim that speaking english only helps other countries flog their wares here is patently false, we have benefited hugely from decades of FDI that wouldn't have received if we didn't speak english. Dublin is one of the financial centres of Europe, Largely though not primary because the locals speak english. On personal level we have access to American and English media, songs, books and other medium.

I the world had a language it would be English, English is the new Latin, the language of business, science and politics and we speak it as our native language. That's a huge advantage and honor.

Sh1tbag OToole

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course hey had a choice. They could have chosen to speak Irish in private, or pass it on to their children. They didn't and that could only have been a conscious choice.

We don't control the majority of our assets, we don't control the waves, or the wind or what materials are in our soil but we have control over them none the less, lack of control over an asset does not mean that asset isn't useful.

Also your claim that speaking english only helps other countries flog their wares here is patently false, we have benefited hugely from decades of FDI that wouldn't have received if we didn't speak english. Dublin is one of the financial centres of Europe, Largely though not primary because the locals speak english. On personal level we have access to American and English media, songs, books and other medium.

I the world had a language it would be English, English is the new Latin, the language of business, science and politics and we speak it as our native language. That's a huge advantage and honor.

They probably did, but a language doesn't really thrive when it's only being passed on in such a way. With the amount of suppression that went on it did well to last to the extent that it did. Unlike the natural phenomena you mentioned English is now controlled by outsiders. The US mass media have more say about how the language evolves than we do.

I never said it only helps other countries but it's definitely skewed in their favour. Our benefit from these foreign megacorps is much overstated. Yes there are lads who get jobs with the likes of Amazamazon who I just happened to be reading this delightful article about but most of the money is just passing through at best, or worse many companies are just here to milk the Irish market.

All this sh1te is shortlived anyway. Just like the housing boom most people don't want to hear about the end of the current tech boom but it won't last forever. Soon we'll have self-driving cars to help us commute to jobs that ain't there anymore because they've been replaced by PHP scripts.

American media is really mass produced tripe of the worst sort. Most of what makes its way over here anyway. People are better off holding onto their own culture, it's easier for them to get involved that way. Most European countries have a form of 'MTV Generation' who have done nothing but sit behind a telly soaking up bland mindless uniform foreign tripe. It gives us a very limited perspective on things, we have never been better informed about world events and news but we're getting increasingly clueless as to what's going on locally.

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

They probably did, but a language doesn't really thrive when it's only being passed on in such a way. With the amount of suppression that went on it did well to last to the extent that it did. Unlike the natural phenomena you mentioned English is now controlled by outsiders. The US mass media have more say about how the language evolves than we do.

That climate was created by Irish people. Irish people encouraged their children to speak English, at home and at school. Children during this period were often beaten to discourage them from speaking Irish at home. This seems harsh but thank goodness they did it because we wouldn't speak English as our national language.

I never said it only helps other countries but it's definitely skewed in their favour. Our benefit from these foreign megacorps is much overstated. Yes there are lads who get jobs with the likes of Amazamazon who I just happened to be reading this delightful article about but most of the money is just passing through at best, or worse many companies are just here to milk the Irish market.

Do you believe it is an overstatement to say Ireland has benefited hugely from FDI? Is it unrealistic to say speaking Engish contributed to our ability to attract FDI?

That Dublin is a centre of European / world finance and speaking Engish contributed to our ability to develop a centre of European / world finance?

20,000 people are currently employed in Dublin in the funds industry, a recent report by pwc expects this number to grow to 30,000 by 2030. Do you believe our English language was irrelevant to this success?

All this sh1te is shortlived anyway. Just like the housing boom most people don't want to hear about the end of the current tech boom but it won't last forever. Soon we'll have self-driving cars to help us commute to jobs that ain't there anymore because they've been replaced by PHP scripts.

Booms and busts are a natural part of the business cycle.

American media is really mass produced tripe of the worst sort. Most of what makes its way over here anyway. People are better off holding onto their own culture, it's easier for them to get involved that way. Most European countries have a form of 'MTV Generation' who have done nothing but sit behind a telly soaking up bland mindless uniform foreign tripe. It gives us a very limited perspective on things, we have never been better informed about world events and news but we're getting increasingly clueless as to what's going on locally.

American media is a hell of a lot better than Irish media for the most part, you're coming across as a man who is afraid of progress.

Globalization is forcing the world closer due to a multitude of reasons. The same powers that forced tribes of individuals into countries and empires are now forcing divergent countries into a single entity. This is progress, languages like Irish will still exist in the academic sphere but are quickly dying as spoken languages.