The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's wrong with History? You really have some odd prejudices.

Why are you pretending I said there was something wrong with history? So you're saying we should learn every dead language because they are historical, or do you just have no point really so you're forced to lie about what I've said?

LordSutch

My kids school has wall to wall Irish all over the place, from the school entrance hall to the gymnasium to the corridors + every classroom in between is covered in signage 'as gaeilge'! everything on the walls is in Irish.

Its not even a gaelscoil, just a normal National School.

Funny thing is that none of the kids or parents actually speak Irish, (or at least if they do its within the privacy of their own homes)? because I have never witnessed anyone speaking Irish, apart from the teachers who welcome each and every pupil in Irish "Maj in mai" being the greeting

...so the kids are surrounded and steeped in Irish, like the school is some big simmering vat on the hob, presumably hoping that if the pupils are steeped enough in the Irish language then flavour will stick, for life.

The kids/parents still don't speak Irish though :cool:

Speedwell

Just joined the forum and I have a question.

I'm an middle-aged American immigrant (I moved here with my Irish-citizen husband about a year and a half ago) and I want to learn Irish. Every time I mention this to an Irish person, I get the raised-eyebrow question, "Why would you want to do that?" That's a good question. I have no Irish ancestry and I'm not religious and I don't have a political affiliation. So why do I want to do that? I'm going to be brutally honest here:

- This is Ireland, isn't it?
- My father was an immigrant to America, and he had to learn English. I was always taught that it is crucial to making a permanent home in a country to learn its language and history. My father believed this so strongly that he flatly refused to teach his children his native language or the history of his home country. I won't go that far, but I do believe that I should respect the Irish language while I assimilate.
- Because my father never taught me his own language or history, I feel impoverished and have a certain resentment toward him for it. I would feel enriched by expanding my cultural and linguistic repertoire.
- I'm a typical ignorant monoglot American. My childhood Spanish and French lessons stuck just long enough that I'm not actually stupid, but I want to learn another language like educated people do. Might as well be Irish since I'm here, eh.
- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions. If I can't speak (or sing in) Irish, I will be at a huge disadvantage. (By the way, I'm looking for an experienced bodhrán teacher now and a low whistle teacher later; I've posted in the appropriate forum about that.)
- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.
- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Your thoughts? Any advice for a beginner who is not finding the Internet resources very helpful (I need feedback from a live teacher)?

mickydoomsux

Speedwell wrote: »

Just joined the forum and I have a question.

I'm an middle-aged American immigrant (I moved here with my Irish-citizen husband about a year and a half ago) and I want to learn Irish. Every time I mention this to an Irish person, I get the raised-eyebrow question, "Why would you want to do that?" That's a good question. I have no Irish ancestry and I'm not religious and I don't have a political affiliation. So why do I want to do that? I'm going to be brutally honest here:

- This is Ireland, isn't it?
- My father was an immigrant to America, and he had to learn English. I was always taught that it is crucial to making a permanent home in a country to learn its language and history. My father believed this so strongly that he flatly refused to teach his children his native language or the history of his home country. I won't go that far, but I do believe that I should respect the Irish language while I assimilate.
- Because my father never taught me his own language or history, I feel impoverished and have a certain resentment toward him for it. I would feel enriched by expanding my cultural and linguistic repertoire.
- I'm a typical ignorant monoglot American. My childhood Spanish and French lessons stuck just long enough that I'm not actually stupid, but I want to learn another language like educated people do. Might as well be Irish since I'm here, eh.
- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions. If I can't speak (or sing in) Irish, I will be at a huge disadvantage. (By the way, I'm looking for an experienced bodhrán teacher now and a low whistle teacher later; I've posted in the appropriate forum about that.)
- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.
- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Your thoughts? Any advice for a beginner who is not finding the Internet resources very helpful (I need feedback from a live teacher)?

Honestly, you learning Irish will be about as useful as you not bothering to learn Irish.

It's an irrelevance to the country at this stage.

The only reason you see any evidence of it around you in your day to day life is because of legislation that forces it's continued existence that really should be gotten rid of. It will be useless to you for your work.

Speedwell

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Honestly, you learning Irish will be about as useful as you not bothering to learn Irish.

It's an irrelevance to the country at this stage.

The only reason you see any evidence of it around you in your day to day life is because of legislation that forces it's continued existence that really should be gotten rid of. It will be useless to you for your work.

Yeah, I learned a smattering of Latin at university because I was studying to become a choir conductor and also wanted to read historical documents in their original language. I didn't get far before I had to drop out due to family emergencies. But I guess I'm just that stubborn kind of person.

Seriously, I get that "it's useless" a lot. It makes me very uncomfortable, like I would be if I was dating a guy and every time I asked him what he wanted for dinner, he always said, "I don't care so long as it fills a hole". I would conclude the guy just considered food a nuisance and thinking about it a bother, and perhaps had a past that included a lot of bad experiences about food or thinking about it. My father had an oil painting of a beautiful gypsy violinist that his parents smuggled out of Hungary, and it always occupied a place of honor in the sitting room, but every time an American visitor admired it, he made a point of saying we had absolutely no gypsy relations and that the American was not to assume that just because he was Hungarian that he admired or felt anything in common with "that sort of thing".

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

mickydoomsux

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past that is best forgotten?

It's not even that. Everyone speaks English. there isn't one person in the entire nation that can only speak Irish.

It's just obsolete. Useless. People don't use it because it's pointless.

It would be like a computer programmer exclusively using COBOL.

Dan_Solo

Sure, some people hate Irish, mainly because they were forced to learn it for pretty much no reason whatsoever.
They should really be hating the being forced bit though rather than Irish itself. We have a common language that serves us perfectly well so anything further should be optional basically.

Berserker

Speedwell wrote: »

- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions.

Not needed in any shape or form. I know a few people who embrace that style of music and they can't speak the language.

Speedwell wrote: »

- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.

Irish is zero use to you in this context. English is the language of business in this country.

Speedwell wrote: »

- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Don't let it bother you. The English translation is right below or beside it. We just need a government in power with the will to change the legislation that forces the use of Irish on signs.

Speedwell

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sure, some people hate Irish, mainly because they were forced to learn it for pretty much no reason whatsoever.
They should really be hating the being forced bit though rather than Irish itself. We have a common language that serves us perfectly well so anything further should be optional basically.

Yeah, well, it's not like I'm considering giving up English like my father gave up his native language. I've taught training classes around the world, and the only place I had trouble using English was in Buenos Aires, where they would have mostly understood me without the interpreter anyway. So I don't have any real reason to learn Irish, sure, I understand that, it's not as though my husband's mother doesn't speak English or anything like that. But I just have a lot of trouble understanding what feels to me like animosity in Ireland toward Irish.

Please pardon my American cultural ignorance. I come from a city that is very, very multicultural and it would be shocking to hear anyone there say some of the things I hear Irish people say about their language. But I think I'm starting to get the picture. Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

mickydoomsux

Speedwell wrote: »

But I just have a lot of trouble understanding what feels to me like animosity in Ireland toward Irish.

Personally i feel it is a waste of time and resources in schools to teach a mandatory subject that is utterly useless. You may as well be teaching children how to make chocolate teapots as teaching them Irish.

Then there is the millions wasted by the government on grants to Gaeltacht areas to appease a tiny minority who are profiting out of these areas existing. And the millions wasted on translating/printing every official government document into Irish for another tiny minority who can read English anyway and are just being awkward to prove some deluded point.

All this money is wasted on the pointless garbage while police stations are closing down and people are literally dying on trolleys in the hallways of our public hospitals because of funding shortfalls.

GreaseGunner

mickydoomsux wrote: »

All this money is wasted on the pointless garbage while police stations are closing down and people are literally dying on trolleys in the hallways of our public hospitals because of funding shortfalls.

Ah here. Granted it's obsolete and has fallen completely out of use, but it never was and never will be pointless garbage.

I do agree that given the state of the country there is mad amounts of money being thrown at it, which could be better spent elsewhere. If there was less spent in better ways then it might make a positive difference.

Iwasfrozen

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

It's not about any inferiority complex the Irish language is genuinely useless. Any time you see Irish in public the English translation will be right beside it, the language has absolutely no use in business and even at Irish traditional music settings if you start to sing in Irish 90 - 95% of the audience won't understand you.

I commend you for wanting to speak another language but might I suggest French?

Speedwell wrote: »

But I think I'm starting to get the picture. Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

Not offensive, more bewildering.

Shep_Dog

Speedwell wrote: »

Please pardon my American cultural ignorance. I come from a city that is very, very multicultural and it would be shocking to hear anyone there say some of the things I hear Irish people say about their language. But I think I'm starting to get the picture. Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

It's not offensive to say you want to learn Irish just odd. People that hear you say that would be reminded of how they were forced to speak Irish themsleves and how a shaming system was used to put down those who were not enthuiastic.

Learning Irish here would be equivalent to learning one of the native American languages. A nice hobby, but not needed for work orvnormal life. Your father chose English, not native American because English was the common, functional, day to day, language. It is the same here.

Berserker

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

My feathers are unruffled. I don't really get a sense of inferiority about it, to be honest. As Iwasfrozen said, the dismissive attitude that people have towards it is due to the fact that it is irrelevant for a huge majority of the population. I too would urge you to chose another European language. French is a beautiful language and there are some wonderful French schools about, particularly in Dublin city centre.

Speedwell wrote: »

Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

No, it is not offensive but people will think that it is a bit strange.

Speedwell

Thanks, everyone. I'm grateful for your candor and your suggestions.

InTheTrees

Speedwell wrote: »

Thanks, everyone. I'm grateful for your candor and your suggestions.

I'm Irish but educated abroad so I never learned any of the language and I have to say I feel a little deprived! I would love to know the basics.

But I also understand how it must have been to have been forced to learn it, and the feeling that you're missing out on more valuable subjects because of that.

I dont really see what can be done. I think its very sad, its a beautiful language.

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

Seriously, I get that "it's useless" a lot. It makes me very uncomfortable.... I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

Never mind them. The same few posters - all somewhere on the far right of the political spectrum around the labels "libertarian" and "utilitarian" - are in every discussion about Irish, expressing their hatred for it, wishing for its death and trying to twist everything to fit their prejudices. 'Hate' and 'death' are invariably the dominant themes. It's the long-established kicking target of our cultural fascists, the Angloban, who want to make Ireland as culturally English as Sussex and get very upset at the mere sight of Irish in Ireland. I mean really, really upset. It's all very cultural cringe indeed, as you rightly sense already. A foreigner coming on expressing a genuine, bias-free interest in Irish drives them crazy. All those walls of prejudice and hatred need to be defended against, ironically, the "ignorant" foreigner.

On the other hand, the people who love and are open to Irish, being invariably a more cultured and educated sort, tend to be wise enough to avoid the hate threads that these few people generate so they stay out of these Orwellian minutes of hate and go to a positive thread, read a book, play music or do something more productive with their energies. (Hint: look at the high number of posts the Irish haters tend to have.)


More constructively, there is a vibrant Irish-speaking community in Dublin if you'd like to seek it out. There is a broad network of support in terms of clubs, classes, coffee mornings, traditional singing nights, GAA culture nights and the like. Seeing as you're into the music, I know for certain that some of the courses in Comhaltas out in Monkstown are through the Irish - I did the Traditional Singing one through it years back. Doing a course in Gaelchultúr, Gael Linn or Conradh na Gaeilge will unlock the door to that world. You could also try one of the Dublin Meetups, or even visit the Gaeilge forum here. This newsletter is worth bookmarking as it lists a wide variety of events, coffee mornings, conversation groups, etc through Irish around the city.

Bain sult as!

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

More constructively...

Constructively, indeed. That's very positive. I like positive

LordSutch

PEIG.

Iwasfrozen

Speedwell wrote: »

Constructively, indeed. That's very positive. I like positive

I wouldn't say he's being very positive, to accuse posters including myself who have tried to give you an accurate understanding of the view of the Irish language within Ireland as being members of the "far right", "hating Irish" or somehow intellectually interior is a falsehood and quite a nasty comment. I take offence at these comments and don't think they are appropriate.

But don't get me wrong, there is a small minority of people who enjoy the hobby as a past time and if you are interested in learning the language hooking up with this clique would be an excellent idea but it's not an inaccurate description to refer to this as a "niche" interest within Irish society.

inocybe

LordSutch wrote: »

PEIG.

Yes, if you truly want to experience Irish like an Irish person, you should find yourself an angry, bitter teacher who will set you work from the school curriculum. Shaming you in front of the class when you make mistakes is part of the experience too. Have fun

Paramite Pie

LordSutch wrote: »

PEIG.

Who's this Peig that everyone's talking about??

I'm 28 years old, born in '87 and went to school in Galway. Yet in every Irish language thread this 'Peig' comes up.

I'm not that far off being 30, and if I don't know who this is then it's probably been irrelevant for a very long time. I really doubt that students going to school now would know either. Irish is not taught like it used to be, there's no beatings and no Peig. Get over it.

Now let's focus on what can be done for the younger generation going to school now.

DyldeBrill

LordSutch wrote: »

PEIG.

I get it...horrible horrible read, but by all means have a look at some of the better books that the Irish language has to offer. Dúnmharú ar an Dart was honestly my favourite book in school. The story line was daring and was far from the drab, mundane read that Peig is.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But don't get me wrong, there is a small minority of people who enjoy the hobby as a past time.

It is far more than a hobby or a past time. People use it regularly on a day to day basis may it be socially or through business. To point it out as being a mere hobby is false.

@Speedwell If you are looking to learn Irish then there are many places you can go to learn. If you visit the Conradh na Gaeilge website, there are classes available for all levels. There are also groups who meet in O'Briens coffee shop on Harcourt St for an easy going chat in Irish. Nothing too strenuous whatsoever.

Shep_Dog

Deleted User wrote: »

cultural fascists, the Angloban, who want to make Ireland as culturally English as Sussex and get very upset at the mere sight of Irish in Ireland.

So Sky Sports, the English language, Tesco, electricity, cars and foreign food are all imposed on an unwilling population by the 'Angloban'?

Shep_Dog

DyldeBrill wrote: »

@Speedwell If you are looking to learn Irish then there are many places you can go to learn. If you visit the Conradh na Gaeilge website, there are classes available for all levels.

But be aware that Conradh na Gaeilge is a radical group whose main aim is 'To reinstate Irish as common tongue of Ireland'.

PopePalpatine

The Gaeliban are far worse. They're usually the same people who bitch about non-Catholics pointing out the difficulty of finding a school for their kids.

osarusan

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, the people who love and are open to Irish, being invariably a more cultured and educated sort, tend to be wise enough to avoid the hate threads that these few people generate so they stay out of these Orwellian minutes of hate and go to a positive thread, read a book, play music or do something more productive with their energies. (Hint: look at the high number of posts the Irish haters tend to have.)

:pac:

DyldeBrill

Shep_Dog wrote: »

But be aware that Conradh na Gaeilge is a radical group whose main aim is 'To reinstate Irish as common tongue of Ireland'.

We're talking here of a beginners class in a relaxed environment to learn the Irish language for god sake, not a brainwashing session to hate the English language. There are plenty of classes that would be of use. A person who wants to learn the language isn't suddenly going to hate English as a result to these classes.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

our cultural fascists, the Angloban,

That's priceless.
Let me guess, people like yourself who want to force people to learn Irish, that they then refuse to use ever again in their lives, aren't "cultural fascists" I suppose?
Hilarious stuff.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, the people who love and are open to Irish, being invariably a more cultured and educated sort, tend to be wise enough to avoid the hate threads that these few people generate

So by your own proclamation you either don't love Irish or you're not wise... your choice there mate.