L1011 wrote: » The bye laws also state that if the ticket office is closed, yoy can pay later. A machine is not an office, and yes - they had machines when the bye laws were written
OisinDunne wrote: » she has mild dyslexia and hadn't got her glasses. Not a problem with the machine problem was with daughter. No saying that there was a problem with the machine...there wasn't but she could use it. There was no one there to help her and the train was arriving. I, as her father, made the call for her to get on and I'd pay at Laytown (as per article 4 of the CIE bylaws)
schemingbohemia wrote: » For future reference get her a student leap card, it would save all the hassle.
Carawaystick wrote: » Does a leap card work in Laytown now? leapcard.ie suggest it works only from Balbriggan south...
lxflyer wrote: » That issue has been debated here ad nauseum - the company maintain that if you have the ability to purchase a ticket you must do so, and are effectively maintaining that a ticket machine is equivalent to a booking office. If you want to challenge that in court, then by all means do so, but I'd be rather careful about suggesting to someone else to try it as we have not seen any evidence that this view of a ticket machine not equalling a ticket office has been accepted by the courts. If it had, I would imagine that the bye laws would have been amended pretty quickly. I'm surprised they took such a strong view if you had explained all of that to them? A little bit of common sense would need to be applied.
L1011 wrote: » It's pretty obvious that Irish Rail would be shouting if from the roof if a precedent setting court had redefined the word "office"
lxflyer wrote: » Don't you think we would be hearing about in the papers it if the courts started rejecting and throwing out cases on those grounds?
L1011 wrote: » Do we hear any of the cases to begin with? Also, like private clamping, when you have something you don't want blown open you prevent the cases going in the first place. You need to use the right reason in an appeal with that. Everyone with your illogical view that a machine is an office has never been able to provide any proof that someone using that reason has been successfully prosecuted - or even taken to prosecution.
lxflyer wrote: » I am pretty sure that they have been bringing prosecutions to the courts. There was a statistic published last year I seem to recall.
lxflyer wrote: » But seeing as though you are so certain about it, why don't you put it to the test?
L1011 wrote: » Where someone has made a specific appeal based on that section of the bye laws? I live in a town that still has a manned station.
lxflyer wrote: » I don't know - but again the likelihood is that if the courts were throwing cases out on that ground, that the press would hear about it, as there would be a whole batch of Irish Rail cases together.
lxflyer wrote: » Well you seem so keen to suggest to someone that they go to court, that maybe you should go to another station with limited booking office opening hours and try it for them. It would put an end to this debate one way or the other.
L1011 wrote: » The likelyhood is, that like private clampers, Irish Rail don't let this get to court when someone uses it as an appeal ground. I don't know a single person who has not had a private clamping "fine" refunded when correctly dealt with (Road Traffic Act, inteference sections). My own prized cheque from APCOA included. Its extremely unlikely that someone would only become aware of it after a failed appeal. It appears that the OP is convinced they're going to court anyway. If you're so sure you're right, you're "knowingly" trying to incite someone to break the law btw.
lxflyer wrote: » I merely put forward the view that IE has publicly stated in their literature with regard to travelling with/without a ticket.
L1011 wrote: » And I'm "merely" saying its an illogical viewpoint with no evidence to back it up, relying on someone making an illogical leap that two completely different things are the same. The same responses that come up every time without even one piece of evidence.
lxflyer wrote: » I think the vast majority of people would take a common sense view and that if there's a ticket machine at a station, they'll use it. But clearly you have a different view, and that's your prerogative, but I wouldn't be taking that chance myself.
L1011 wrote: » The ticket machines don't take €50 notes For a prolonged period of time, they had another illogical action in refusing to sell you a child ticket They do not have all possible destinations on them at all stations, nowhere close in fact. There are a multitude of times when you cannot use a TVM.
OisinDunne wrote: » I'd love to go to court and argue the point with them but it is my daughter that the offence is against and she is scared and worried about a criminal record if the judge goes against her. She is only 16. I, on the other hand, would be shouting my record from the rooftops as it would be the stupidest criminal conviction ever. Irish Rail won't allow me to take the case instead of her so I think I'll have to pay and then take them to small claims court to recover as they are undermining my authority as a parent under the constitution: ARTICLE 41 1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law. as they are saying that me telling my daughter to get on and I'll look after it was telling her to commit a criminal offence. I really want to try this against a sane judge to see what happens but my poor daughter is so worried that she doesn't even want me talking about it at home. Of course the final line of the appeals process states that the appeal decision is not open for appeal....but nothing is ever "not open to appeal" if we try to be reasonable adults about things. It's not as if she was travelling the lenght and breath of the country evading fares everywhere, drinking & smokeing on the trains and not have a care in the world. I do really worry about society at times. :-)
lxflyer wrote: » So what do you do when you board a Dublin Bus and only a €50 note on you? Walk straight past the driver?
L1011 wrote: » Dublin Bus provide advance notice that they don't take any bank notes. Irish Rail take bank notes Can you try come up with some valid comparisons? And maybe deal with the many other reasons why using a TVM may not be possible rather than latching on to the one you can give a trite, invalid 'comparison' for.
