Pacteau pleads guilty to murder of Karen Buckley

KERSPLAT! · 11-08-2015 09:40PM

MOD

Can we move on from that. New thread, so we'll start from scratch. Any issues with any posts, report them and we'll look into it

Cheers

seamus · 11-08-2015 10:04PM

conorh91 wrote: »

About 12 months before he murdered Karen Buckley, Pacteau pleaded guilty to offences related to possessing £6,000 in counterfeit notes that he had printed in his own home.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/275406-benefits-shame-led-to-alexander-pacteau-printing-fake-banknotes/

Hmm. I wonder if this fncker's going to try and plead some kind of brain damage or other mental disability as a mitigating circumstance, claim that his capacity to control himself was diminished or some other nonsense.

conorh91 · 11-08-2015 10:18PM

seamus wrote: »

Hmm. I wonder if this fncker's going to try and plead some kind of brain damage or other mental disability as a mitigating circumstance, claim that his capacity to control himself was diminished or some other nonsense.

That was exactly my first thought as well.

Consider also that the prosecution for rape previously brought against him will not be taken into account, since he was found not guilty (I'm presuming Scottish sentencing principles are the same as England, Ireland and Wales on that score).

If he can argue lack of premeditation, I presume that is also a mitigating factor at sentencing in the Scottish courts... the whole thing is disturbing to think about.

There's a lot to be said for our system of an effectively open-ended life-sentencing regime.

Neyite · 11-08-2015 10:51PM

As she was a nurse, I always felt that a simple ruse such as having a sick or high friend around the corner to lure her away from safety was likely what led her to his car and ultimately, to her death.

She was unconscious or possibly even dead quite soon after getting into the car, so that was a small mercy I suppose in that she was not concious for whatever he did to her in his flat.

I hope its the maximum sentence he gets, and for the family I'm glad that there was no years of waiting until trial.

Menas · 12-08-2015 08:48AM

I saw a report on STV about his previous rape trial.
Basically when he was 17 he is alleged to have dragged a woman down an alley late at night. He was 6ft4 and 15 stone at that time.
Neighbors heard her screams and saw him getting off the ground and adjusting his trousers. He told the court he was homosexual and was just helping the woman when she starting hitting him and he was very afraid of her.
The woman and neighbors testified against him.
Jury acquitted with a majority verdict.

kfallon · 12-08-2015 08:50AM

Menas wrote: »

I saw a report on STV about his previous rape trial.
Basically when he was 17 he is alleged to have dragged a woman down an alley late at night. He was 6ft4 and 15 stone at that time.
Neighbors heard her screams and saw him getting off the ground and adjusting his trousers. He told the court he was homosexual and was just helping the woman when she starting hitting him and he was very afraid of her.
The woman and neighbors testified against him.
Jury acquitted with a majority verdict.

How did he get off with it? Or was it just not enough substantial evidence to get a guilty verdict?

Menas · 12-08-2015 08:52AM

kfallon wrote: »

How did he get off with it? Or was it just not enough substantial evidence to get a guilty verdict?

The STV reporter said he was simply 'very convincing' and his argument that he was just a 17 year old lad caught up in a scary situation was believed by most of the jury.

Link to a STV story on the rape here.

Luke92 · 12-08-2015 08:55AM

When his mother was on national television saying he was a good boy. That's when you know you're dealing with a psycho.

I believe he said he'd rather be sentenced for murder rather than rape. He believes rape is the lowest of the low.

Strange oul fella.

Reading too of everything he done to try cover his tracks. All while the police were looking into him then questioning him. He got a lot done in such a short amount of time. I believe if it were not for CCTV he would have gotten away with it and been free to rape or kill again.

razorblunt · 12-08-2015 09:04AM

My God, that statement from the Dad on behalf of the Buckley's was heartbreaking. What an absolute dignified man and family they are.

Credit goes to the person who tipped off the Police that Pacteau used to store fireworks at that farm.
The Police handled this very well too, the fact they questioned and released him seemed to jog memories of locals, one reporting seeing him struggle loading a barrel into his car.

JustTheOne · 12-08-2015 09:05AM

Some people really are just messed up in their head.

How can you foresee things like this.

NachoBusiness · 12-08-2015 09:08AM

kfallon wrote: »

How did he get off with it? Or was it just not enough substantial evidence to get a guilty verdict?

Apparently there was an issue with inaudible testimony (not sure how much of a part that played mind):

Pacteau met the woman by chance in the early hours of November 27, 2011, after a night out with friends, court documents from the time reveal. Just like Miss Buckley, Pacteau initially won her trust, telling her he was looking for a taxi after leaving The Garage nightclub in Glasgow city centre.

He was accused of forcing her to the ground, putting his hand over her mouth, carrying out a sex act and attempting to make her carry a sex act out on him.

People nearby heard ‘screams of panic and terror’ and rushed to the scene where they discovered the young woman covered in mud. Pacteau was arrested despite initially trying to hide from officers behind a Transit van.

Pacteau claimed the victim had slapped him when he asked about her boyfriend and the pair fell over behind a car, with him on top of her. Pacteau said he had been ‘scared’ and fled the scene he was ‘confused’.

At one stage Pacteau even told jurors that he was gay – with the apparent implication that he was therefore unlikely to have sexually attacked a woman.

The then-teenager denied the offence and was cleared by majority verdict at the High Court in Glasgow.

But one juror later claimed that some of the alleged victim's testimony had been inaudible.

Court documents show that the juror, who cannot be named for legal reasons, 'experienced very considerable difficulty' hearing the evidence at Paisley Sheriff Court.

The Scottish Conservatives have now called for the Crown Office to look into the revelations, calling them ‘unacceptable’.

MSP Alex Johnstone said: ‘It’s alarming to hear that there were technical difficulties in a previous case.

'The Crown Office should look into this as a matter of urgency. Once again it is the victims of crime, their families and friends who are made to suffer.

The juror submitted two notes: one outlining the technical outline and the other a plea for the problem to be addressed in the courtroom.

In his first note, the juror gave a detailed criticism of the poor setup in the court. He then said that the jury had ‘experienced very considerable difficulty’ in hearing the testimony of the witnesses owing to ‘insufficient volume’.

The note concluded: 'It seems unlikely that jury members will be able to honestly say that they heard all the evidence presented in court.'

The same juror said he had also experienced difficulty in hearing the testimony of the crime scene examiner.

The documents surrounding the case show that the concerned juror submitted his note after the prosecution witnesses had taken to the stand - just two days before Pacteau was found not guilty.

The case had been subject to huge delays after Pacteau was injured in a car crash, which left him fighting for his life and in a coma for four weeks.

razorblunt · 12-08-2015 09:08AM

Luke92 wrote: »

When his mother was on national television saying he was a good boy. That's when you know you're dealing with a psycho.

Yes, I was thinking that too.

pickarooney · 12-08-2015 09:12AM

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

He has issues, he was previously found not guilty of rape.

How do these two things relate?

12-08-2015 09:15AM

Can you imagine being the housemate as well? He was feet away from her body and probably bathed in the tub that she was cleaned in, without ever realizing. That's the kind of stuff that would stick with you for life.

The whole thing just sounds horrible and disgusting, but thank God he pleaded guilty. It will give some degree of closure to her family.

Neyite · 12-08-2015 10:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole thing just sounds horrible and disgusting, but thank God he pleaded guilty. It will give some degree of closure to her family.

I don't believe for one second he pleaded guilty for altruistic reasons.
Its far more likely that with all the forensic and cctv evidence placing him and his victim at all of the crime scenes - the club, the car, his flat, the farm, within such a short time frame too, it was a slam dunk of a case, and he is only pleading guilty as a self-serving measure.

He'd prefer to go to prison for murder rather than rape, because murderers generally are tolerated and left alone in the prison population, sometimes even receiving a bit of respect amongst the other inmates, whereas sex attackers would be threatened and need segregation for their own protection. He will hopefully feel vulnerable, fearful, exposed, and scared for his personal safety amongst potential predators for the duration of his sentence. I hope that his previous victim and the Buckley family can derive some sort of satisfaction from that.

Menas · 12-08-2015 10:12AM

Neyite wrote: »

I don't believe for one second he pleaded guilty for altruistic reasons.
Its far more likely that with all the forensic and cctv evidence placing him and his victim at all of the crime scenes - the club, the car, his flat, the farm, within such a short time frame too, it was a slam dunk of a case, and he is only pleading guilty as a self-serving measure.

He'd prefer to go to prison for murder rather than rape, because murderers generally are tolerated and left alone in the prison population, sometimes even receiving a bit of respect amongst the other inmates, whereas sex attackers would be threatened and need segregation for their own protection. He will hopefully feel vulnerable, fearful, exposed, and scared for his personal safety amongst potential predators for the duration of his sentence. I hope that his previous victim and the Buckley family can derive some sort of satisfaction from that.

Yes, and he will get a discount in sentencing for that guilty plea. :mad:

But the discount will only be on the minimum tarrif. He is still likely to get a minimum tarrif of 25 years and that just sets when he can first apply for parole.
After that it is down to the parole board whether he is fit for release or not.

VisibleGorilla · 12-08-2015 10:55AM

Neyite wrote: »

He will hopefully feel vulnerable, fearful, exposed, and scared for his personal safety amongst potential predators for the duration of his sentence. I hope that his previous victim and the Buckley family can derive some sort of satisfaction from that.

This is completely messed up, no?

What your hoping for her is nothing much revenge, something a modern justice system should have no part in.

He should be kept locked up for his crimes and as he is a clear danger to others, but to have him suffer is utterly meaningless. It won't bring her back nor give some sick satisfaction to the victims famines.

conorh91 · 12-08-2015 11:18AM

Neyite wrote: »

I don't believe for one second he pleaded guilty for altruistic reasons.

Of course not, but who cares?

Pacteau's sinister character is unquestionable. The point of our relief at this early plea is for the sake of the family, who won't have to endure graphic, disputed evidence at trial, or the risk of an innocent verdict. It's for this reason we are relieved, not because Pacteau is a decent lad after all.

purplepanda · 12-08-2015 11:50AM

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

This is completely messed up, no?

What your hoping for her is nothing much revenge, something a modern justice system should have no part in.

He should be kept locked up for his crimes and as he is a clear danger to others, but to have him suffer is utterly meaningless. It won't bring her back nor give some sick satisfaction to the victims famines.

Sometimes judicial justice is not total justice & natural justice will eventually prevail.

He'll be very fortunate to avoid such repercussions over the period his sentence, even with the supposed protection of prison staff & the authorities.

Neyite · 12-08-2015 12:03PM

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

This is completely messed up, no?

What your hoping for her is nothing much revenge, something a modern justice system should have no part in.

He should be kept locked up for his crimes and as he is a clear danger to others, but to have him suffer is utterly meaningless. It won't bring her back nor give some sick satisfaction to the victims famines.

If I was hoping for revenge, it would be hoping for a lot more than wanting him to be a bit scared to sleep and watching his back in prison, but I'm not a vengeful person. I hope that he serves a full sentence and is left alone in the prison population and that its a long long time before he is released. I'm personally disappointed when someone who is serving time for a heinous crime either kills themselves or gets killed in prison and thus avoids serving a full sentence. I'd imagine victims feel cheated then too.

I'm pointing out that his previous victim probably has had all sorts of psychological issues after her assault, and it likely affects all aspects of her daily life - going to the shops, coming home from work in the dark, how she chooses what to wear, going out with friends, even potential relationships. So having failed to get justice before when she was brave enough to testify, she might feel safer he is behind bars and it might be totally understandable if she (or the Buckley family) derives a bit of satisfaction in the thought he's feeling vulnerable in the prison shower or that he cries himself to sleep at night. And I wouldn't call them sick for thinking it, just human.

12-08-2015 12:09PM

I definitely wasn't suggesting he did it for the family .. I've no idea why, maybe he just wanted the recognition of having killed someone, maybe it was the amount of evidence against him. But it doesn't matter, his pleading guilty means that there won't be a trial (I'm assuming, my knowledge of the legal process is lacking, somewhat), which would just bring an added weight to her family.

VisibleGorilla · 12-08-2015 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I definitely wasn't suggesting he did it for the family .. I've no idea why, maybe he just wanted the recognition of having killed someone, maybe it was the amount of evidence against him. But it doesn't matter, his pleading guilty means that there won't be a trial (I'm assuming, my knowledge of the legal process is lacking, somewhat), which would just bring an added weight to her family.

The idea of a trial is to find out if he is guilty. He has admitted his guilt and provided 90% of what actually happened.

There will be no trial, only mandatory life sentence with a minimum tariff.

He plead guilty so it will be used as a mitigating factor when he will be sentenced.

12-08-2015 03:23PM

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

What your hoping for her is nothing much revenge, something a modern justice system should have no part in.

He should be kept locked up for his crimes and as he is a clear danger to others, but to have him suffer is utterly meaningless.

That's why I like the death penalty, it's not about revenge, it's about keeping society safe and they don't suffer for that long.

MintyMagnum · 13-08-2015 12:21AM

Can't believe this guy has a younger sister. No empathy whatsoever. Can't imagine how she's feeling.

anonymous00000 · 13-08-2015 11:49PM

I was very suprised to hear he pleaded guilty, was sure he would plead not guilty considering he requested a second postmortem on her body to assist his defence and lied for days about her whereabouts. Or else I thought he would have pleaded insanity given the car accident he had a few years ago. Thank god he didn't, although I think he only pleaded guilty because the police nailed him right from the beginning, not to 'help' her family in any way or because he felt remorse.

This case reminds me so much of the Jill Meagher case in Melbourne a few years ago, it's so eerie and chilling how similar both cases are when you think about it. Two young Irish women both walking home after a night out, both disappearing into thin air for days and then found having been murdered in random attacks after crossing paths with their killers by chance. That footage of Jill Meagher talking to Adrian Bayley outside a store still sends shivers down my spine.

The fact that Pacteau was acquitted of an attempted rape charge a few years ago because of a technicality (one of the jurors didn't hear some evidence properly I believe) is quite sickening. Those jurors must feel so bad, not that this is their fault, but I know I would be if I was one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Pacteau was responsible for more attacks. From what I've read he seems like a guy who has serious problems with women.

I still don't believe she went with him because he offered her a lift. This girl apparently didn't like getting taxis alone so I definitely don't believe she went with a stranger who offered her a lift in a city she'd only lived in a few weeks especially if he was intoxicated as he has claimed. I think it's possible he led her away under false pretences, possibly pretending a friend was ill or he needed help in some way, she was a nurse and a caring trustworthy girl from what I have heard. That's what Ted Bundy did, preyed on vulnerable young women by feigning injury to gain their trust. Personally I think Pacteau did the same. However sadly I don't think we will ever know the full truth.

I just hope the judge delivers proper justice and hands down a very long sentence, not this 15/20 years craic. Pacteau is a very dangerous thing and a complete menace to any woman. Given the appalling nature of the crime and the outrage it has caused both here in Ireland and in Scotland, I would imagine the judge will find it hard not to be too lenient. One can only hope.

Grandeeod · 14-08-2015 12:59AM

In todays society of accepted promiscuity, it's understandable that this poor girls lifestyle was suggested in the way it was by some media outlets.

Nightclub. Booze. Got into a car with the mad ****er. Etc. We should never be surprised that this angle is taken, because people actually do these things and aren't murdered. Karen was unlucky and evidently not in the aforementioned category.

But the burning question for me is WHY did she get into the car. Pacteau doesn't seem to have offered anything up on this. I'm not entirely certain that drugs were confirmed, but we do know that no sexual contact took place and she did have defensive injuries. Perhaps the police know and her family know. I hope they do. But if I was her Dad, it would haunt me until the day I die if I didn't know. I have a young daughter and all any Dad or mum can do is preach about the dangers of this lovely world with a few ****ty people in it.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 14-08-2015 09:38AM

What about it if she did just go off with him for a one night stand? We know now that she didn't, but even if she had done, she would not have been wrong. She wouldn't deserve to be murdered or hurt in any way. Her levels of promiscuity should not even be an issue because she did nothing wrong and it's 100% all on him.

conorh91 · 14-08-2015 09:42AM

Exactly. I'm not going to be graphic but we all know how this man killed her and how he subsequently treated her body. The question of whether or not this was a one night stand is mind-bogglingly irrelevant.

I actually dislike even pointing out that it wasn't, because it almost sounds as if it would detract from Pacteau's blameworthiness if it had been true. It's not relevant to anything.

Potatoeman · 14-08-2015 10:12AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

What about it if she did just go off with him for a one night stand? We know now that she didn't, but even if she had done, she would not have been wrong. She wouldn't deserve to be murdered or hurt in any way. Her levels of promiscuity should not even be an issue because she did nothing wrong and it's 100% all on him.

It's like hitchhiking. You're completely dependant on a stranger not being nuts. It doesn't make it any less of a crime but some people would consider it risky behaviour.

Menas · 14-08-2015 10:17AM

I doubt very much that her family or friends are awake at night wondering why she got in the car. Because it does not matter. Could have been that he just offered her a lift home. He was a predator...

Fact is that she did get in the car and she is not to blame for what happened after that.

Pacteau pleads guilty to murder of Karen Buckley

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