Ireland v The UK

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 08:45PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Surely a smaller country would make it more obvious. There are people living in England who've never seen poverty.

We have much higher welfare payments than the UK so it's likely the claim that the poverty is ameliorated here is true. And fewer bankers. Less established wealth. The rest is the same.

There's an odd mix in Ireland. The lower paid get paid well, as do the higher paid. The legal profession here, for example, are exceptionally well paid to the point where some multinationals have considered flying people in from the UK to carry out certain legal projects.

The middle tier though, IT contractors and the like can earn 50% more in the UK. You ask Cisco qualified people what the relative pay difference is.

Then there's the snobbery. I hear people talking about a class structure in the UK, but it is something I never really noticed, however here (as has been said earlier) describing where someone lives as Ballybrack (because that's where their house actually is) would be met with abject horror, because despite living opposite the Igo, they think they live in Killiney and wouldn't want to be associated with the knackers from The Brack.

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 08:47PM

WesternZulu wrote: »

The class system is definitely more defined over in the UK and it's not a good thing.

In what way?

Titzon Toast · 21-07-2015 08:47PM

Sleepy wrote: »

The long term unemployed of the UK holiday in old school campsites in North Wales.
The long term unemployed of Ireland holiday in High Rise Apartments in Santa Ponza / Salou.

Tells you everything you need to know tbh.

Holidays on the feckin scratcher?!
I'm self employed and I can't afford a holiday, I haven't had a week off in three years for that matter. No BS.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 08:48PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Surely a smaller country would make it more obvious. There are people living in England who've never seen poverty.

We have much higher welfare payments than the UK so it's likely the claim that the poverty is ameliorated here is true. And fewer bankers. Less established wealth. The rest is the same.

The single big difference is the class system.
Like it or not, Britian is still absolutely class riddled and ridden. I know things have moved on to a good degree but there are still very strong aspects of class locked into everything they debate, do, say.

I've been shocked on quite a few occasions about how people over there from "working class" backgrounds tend to actually box themselves into a particular set of low ambitions. They don't even get forced into that box, they self identify.

Politics is still largely working class vs middle class / upper class.

What's broken down hasn't been the class divide, rather it's been the Tories and UKIP now command a working class right wing vote and the Labour Party gets a centrist vote from middle class progressives. The "us" vs "them" thing applies as much as ever.

What annoyed me over there though is there are still a significant number of people who will made absolutely sweeping statements about "the working class" or "the middle class" or who will make incredibly prejudiced statements about an individual based on their class, not their personal attributes.

That can work against a working class or middle class person depending on their circumstances - social mobility up/down isn't always very possible.

I appreciate it has moved on a lot but it smacks you in the face every once in a while when you're over there and not used to seeing it first hand.

As a non British person you hover outside it as a sort of classless interloper. But I've just seen some really unbelievable attitudes where working class people are describing themselves as such despite high incomes, good education etc they are always "working class" and in their minds not good enough to mix with the posh people.

Then you've middle class snobs who will will sometimes come out with stuff as if they're speaking about another species when talking about the working class / chavs or whatever terminology is on trend.

Also the old school tie thing in London is shocking. I encountered it in two industries - media and banking and it's definitely a big deal. We have a bit of it here but nothing to the same level. It's incredibly weird to see it up front and personal!

What worries me in Britian is that poverty is somehow more acceptable and accepted than it is here. If you're working class in Britian there is a sense that it's good enough for you and your expectations should be lower.

The upper class just exist on a different planet entirely! It's all about birth rights and privilege. I worked with a few not very wealthy British aristocratic types who are utterly lovely but they do quite seriously inhabit another dimension in terms of how it all works for them. There's a degree of access and privilege you simply cannot achieve you're just born into it or you're not. That's amazing in a 21st, democratic century society.

Ireland on the other hand is definitively flatter as a society. I've lived in France too and it's similar in that regard.

I don't honestly think you've the same issues here with social mobility. If you earn money and get yourself a decent job, you can definitely pull yourself out of any class situation.

I don't think people actually begrudge a bit of public spending to eliminate poverty and create opportunities here in the same way I've seen young, very privileged Tory types do in England.

In a sense we're all somewhat underdogs in Ireland and I think there's always that sense that we'll pull each other up.

Also if you attempt to turn yourself into a quasi aristocrat, you really don't get any respect for it. If anything you'll get the piss taken out of you and brought back to reality. That applies in France very much too.

I think a good struggle with aristocratic oligarchs did both countries a serious favour in creating much more egalitarian and flexible socities.

I just think that's where Ireland can probably end up being a far more classless, very open society compared to Britian and I do think it plays into our political attitudes and how we spend money as a state and spread it around.

I'm not saying Britian isn't running a huge welfare state and has all sorts of post WWII social democracy but, the ancienne régime still haunts everything the do because it was never abolished.

RDM_83 again · 21-07-2015 08:50PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Yeah I know, I just didn't want to let on that I think the north side is a ****hole. Even in places with bad reps like Tallaght and Clondalkin you don't see the same kind of stuff as you do in Woolwich, Deptford, Plaistow, Forest Gate etc.

I moved directly from North inner city Dublin to one of the places you mention, the difference in noticeable poverty was incredible. Due to ethnic/migrant group that was dominant in that area it was less violent than I expected (still violent and a constant sense that bad sh-t could easily happen) but I've never been in a place as grim.
People wonder how London can function as an economy with stratospheric costs of living and at the lower end not amazing wages, the answer is they pack out places or live in literal hovels in areas like the one I left to stretch their wages.
It was like watching a textbook example of how not to run society. Most seemed to be hard working decent people but their kids are going to hate the mainstream and with good reason.
In case it sounds like I am singling out the migrant communities I had far more respect for them than the "native" english, they seemed to be either streetwalkers or drug addicts (thats not a glib statement 50% of those I encountered there were one of the two).
God I hated that place

LDN_Irish · 21-07-2015 08:57PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then there's the snobbery. I hear people talking about a class structure in the UK, but it is something I never really noticed, however here (as has been said earlier) describing where someone lives as Ballybrack (because that's where their house actually is) would be met with abject horror, because despite living opposite the Igo, they think they live in Killiney and wouldn't want to be associated with the knackers from The Brack.

We might share a contact! You're not wrong about Irish snobbery among the Ross O'Carroll Kelly types but I think those people are relatively few and far between.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 09:01PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I moved directly from North inner city Dublin to one of the places you mention, the difference in noticeable poverty was incredible. Due to ethnic/migrant group that was dominant in that area it was less violent than I expected (still violent and a constant sense that bad sh-t could easily happen) but I've never been in a place as grim.
People wonder how London can function as an economy with stratospheric costs of living and at the lower end not amazing wages, the answer is they pack out places or live in literal hovels in areas like the one I left to stretch their wages.
It was like watching a textbook example of how not to run society. Most seemed to be hard working decent people but their kids are going to hate the mainstream and with good reason.
In case it sounds like I am singling out the migrant communities I had far more respect for them than the "native" english, they seemed to be either streetwalkers or drug addicts (thats not a glib statement 50% of those I encountered there were one of the two).
God I hated that place

I don't think they've actually done a proper analysis of why the London Riots happened. That was a really serious sign of underlying social problems and I think it's been largely just swept under the carpet.

Likewise, how is social exclusion and poverty or perception of lack of opportunity going to feed into radicalisation and possible terrorism risks?

They're building a tinderbox unfortunately.

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 09:04PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

We might share a contact! You're not wrong about Irish snobbery among the Ross O'Carroll Kelly types but I think those people are relatively few and far between.

Not from what I've seen. The number of Dalkey types that think their deadly because daddy paid for them to go to Loretto is unbelievable. There seems to be a "head up your own arse" epidemic in the area.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 09:07PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not from what I've seen. The number of Dalkey types that think their deadly because daddy paid for them to go to Loretto is unbelievable. There seems to be a "head up your own arse" epidemic in the area.

The difference is in the real world in Ireland it actually carries no weight.

I've worked in both private and public sector here and if anything that just works against you here. People will treat you like a spoiled brat.

University access here is also thankfully a pure meritocracy based on totally anonymous points. There are no interviews, no string pulling etc

Harry Palmr · 21-07-2015 09:10PM

sabat wrote: »

The worst scummers in England are 100 times worse than their Irish equivalents. I'm talking about those shaven-headed, sunken-eyed guys with spiderweb tattoos on their faces, big sovereign rings and chains and just a real nasty vibe off them.

The homeless chaps that an Irish gang of travellers "owned" might venture a different opinion about the difference.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/british-police-smash-irish-traveler-slavery-camp-and-free-24-victims-129640848-237411311.html

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 09:11PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

University access here is also thankfully a pure meritocracy based on totally anonymous points. There are no interviews, no string pulling etc

Based on actual points, but going to Mount Anville or Blackrock College means you're a shoe in for UCD or Trinners.

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 09:17PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

The difference is in the real world in Ireland it actually carries no weight.

Yes it does. If two people turn up for a job at a law firm, one from Blackrock and one from Ballyfermot, which one do you think will get the job?

questionmark? · 21-07-2015 09:32PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The standard JSA "dole" payment in the UK is a bit better than half what it is here £73.10 or €104 for the over 25s

Housing benefit, tax credits, working tax credits, employment support allowance, lower cost of living, council tax paid for, mortgage interest payments, school meals for young kids, etc etc...
Headline figure cant be used to compare as its a totally differant system.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 09:46PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Based on actual points, but going to Mount Anville or Blackrock College means you're a shoe in for UCD or Trinners.

How exactly?

UCD & Trinners have no idea if you're from any particular school. You're just a number and you're selected for the course by a computer based on your points...

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 09:49PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes it does. If two people turn up for a job at a law firm, one from Blackrock and one from Ballyfermot, which one do you think will get the job?

If you turn up at some employers (thinking of a major one I know) the CEO sees someone from Ballyfermot with a qualification as a major asset to the company and may see someone from Blackrock as a possible Ross OCK.

Very much depends on the employer.

Also the legal profession is one of the last bastions of the 1700s ! They've only recently loosened up and stopped wearing wigs FFS!

Even that's changing though.

lulu1 · 21-07-2015 10:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Have been around Yorkshire a lot and the contrast over there seems more obvious than here, you could be in beautiful Haworth in a queue of 4x4s and next you're in Keighley, one of the ugliest roughest towns you could hope to find. Real urban rural divide there, beautiful countryside with everyone voting conservative, grim urban areas racked by unemployment returning Labour MPs.

Have friends in Keighley and was over there just last year. Didn't see much wrong with the town appearance wise tbh.

1 thing that struck me more than anything was the people. There were so friendly and everyone spoke to you passing in the street or in resturants.

It reminded me so much of home

Kalman · 21-07-2015 10:08PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I moved directly from North inner city Dublin to one of the places you mention, the difference in noticeable poverty was incredible. Due to ethnic/migrant group that was dominant in that area it was less violent than I expected (still violent and a constant sense that bad sh-t could easily happen) but I've never been in a place as grim.
People wonder how London can function as an economy with stratospheric costs of living and at the lower end not amazing wages, the answer is they pack out places or live in literal hovels in areas like the one I left to stretch their wages.
It was like watching a textbook example of how not to run society. Most seemed to be hard working decent people but their kids are going to hate the mainstream and with good reason.
In case it sounds like I am singling out the migrant communities I had far more respect for them than the "native" english, they seemed to be either streetwalkers or drug addicts (thats not a glib statement 50% of those I encountered there were one of the two).
God I hated that place

I loved London [still do] . In the late 1950's , to me it was the most exciting place on earth.

The night life, I adored ! I was young with money to spend .Saturday nights at the Hammersmith Palais, it was there that I learnt to dance and I soon became endearingly vulnerable to the charms of the beautiful ladies that I danced the 'Foxtrot' with .:) [I still am];)

There are slums in all cities over the world.

I worked in the East-End, [Brick Lane] in the leather trade; my employer was Jewish and I loved to listen to the 'Yiddish Spiel. I loved the bagels and jelly eels from 'Tubby Isaacs over on Goulston Street

I took lodgings in Seven Sisters Road, not far from 'Sadler's Wells Theatre ' where I became a regular visitor.

A Red Rover' bus ticket bought on Saturdays would take me up to the West-End and maybe a walk and a drink in Soho.

Then on to Pride & Clark over in Stockwell to sit astride their big beautiful motorbikes. On a Saturday night, maybe a trip over to West-Ham for a drink at Billy walker's 'Knockout Club.

London is a great place. You get good and no-so-good everywhere, life is what you make it!

RDM_83 again · 21-07-2015 10:38PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't think they've actually done a proper analysis of why the London Riots happened. That was a really serious sign of underlying social problems and I think it's been largely just swept under the carpet.

Likewise, how is social exclusion and poverty or perception of lack of opportunity going to feed into radicalisation and possible terrorism risks?

They're building a tinderbox unfortunately.

The area I was in didn't suffer too much in the riots apparently I do think there was a sense of community among some of the inhabitants, the thing is its a sense of community utterly isolated from mainstream British society its their kids that will be the problem

Kalman wrote: »

London is a great place. You get good and no-so-good everywhere, life's what you make it!

I've mellowed a lot to the place since moved from that area but my point isn't simply about how bad the area I was living in was, it was how it was so much poorer than the places that are considered bad in Ireland.

ps Salt Beef bagels are still excellent

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 10:56PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

If you turn up at some employers (thinking of a major one I know) the CEO sees someone from Ballyfermot with a qualification as a major asset to the company and may see someone from Blackrock as a possible Ross OCK.

Very much depends on the employer.

Also the legal profession is one of the last bastions of the 1700s ! They've only recently loosened up and stopped wearing wigs FFS!

Even that's changing though.

You have very green tinted specs.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 11:02PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You have very green tinted specs.

Not really. I actually plan on emigrating partially because I think Ireland's still has large elements of being a bit of a theocratic backwater.

Things like having 90%+ of schools in catholic patronage and having effectively no public school system and the situation regarding reproductive rights and abortion law still putting women's rights at risks really, really annoys me!

Had it been a no vote on the same sex marriage thing, I'd be long gone.

RedemptionZ · 22-07-2015 12:07AM

I don't understand what exactly people mean by the poor are poorer in the UK. How do you know what either are making unless you've been both or have access to their bank accounts? Like you can obviously tell the difference between a poor person in Africa and a poor person in Ireland, but for the UK, how exactly do people know?

LDN_Irish wrote: »

A lot of South Dubliners are spoilt rotten though and don't even know it. "North of Shankill church is a no go area." "Ballybrack is an awful kip!" "Bray is a very rough town!" LOeffinL yiz haven't a clue.

All about context. Ireland had a murder rate of 1.2 in 2012, the UK had 1.0 in 2011(those were the first figures I found). Very similar. The United States had 4.7 in 2012. American Ghettos, now they are another monster, but to say or imply that UK council estates are rougher than Irish ones, well I'd have to say how on earth do you know that? Ireland had more murders per capita and let's face it murder is always disproportionately produced from crime and crime comes from poverty. There are rough areas in Ballybrack, I have a friend who was bricked there recently by a few well known scumbags. It's not at the level that say Darndale would be but if I was raising a family it wouldn't be on my top ten list to live.

SpaceTime · 22-07-2015 12:54AM

Sure Glasgow has the highest murder rate in Western Europe pretty much.

All depends on which bit of the UK or Ireland you're talking about.

The majority of Irish murders aren't poverty driven, they're drugs gang-on-gan stuff unfortunately.

It's similar enough in the UK too.

LDN_Irish · 22-07-2015 12:59AM

RedemptionZ wrote: »

All about context. Ireland had a murder rate of 1.2 in 2012, the UK had 1.0 in 2011(those were the first figures I found). Very similar. The United States had 4.7 in 2012. American Ghettos, now they are another monster, but to say or imply that UK council estates are rougher than Irish ones, well I'd have to say how on earth do you know that? Ireland had more murders per capita and let's face it murder is always disproportionately produced from crime and crime comes from poverty. There are rough areas in Ballybrack, I have a friend who was bricked there recently by a few well known scumbags. It's not at the level that say Darndale would be but if I was raising a family it wouldn't be on my top ten list to live.

Whilst the murder rate is slightly higher, if you compare Ireland with England and Wales (because Scotland and NI have seperate crime stats) all other crimes listed on International reports are considerably lower per 100,000 pop, with the exception of car theft.

Rape:

Ireland 8.5
E&W 27.7

Robbery:

Ireland 56
E&W 137

Assault:

Ireland 353
E&W 730

Buglary

Ireland 610
E&W 986

Car Theft

Ireland 298
E&W 215

Just realised, I can't link from my phone with a PDF but if you google "civitas crime 2015" it's the first result and they're taken from the UN Office on Drugs and Crime.

SpaceTime · 22-07-2015 01:12AM

Scotland's murder rate is 2.33 !!

Glasgow 3.3

RedemptionZ · 22-07-2015 01:45AM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Whilst the murder rate is slightly higher, if you compare Ireland with England and Wales (because Scotland and NI have seperate crime stats) all other crimes listed on International reports are considerably lower per 100,000 pop, with the exception of car theft.

Rape:

Ireland 8.5
E&W 27.7

Robbery:

Ireland 56
E&W 137

Assault:

Ireland 353
E&W 730

Buglary

Ireland 610
E&W 986

Car Theft

Ireland 298
E&W 215

Just realised, I can't link from my phone with a PDF but if you google "civitas crime 2015" it's the first result and they're taken from the UN Office on Drugs and Crime.

Hmm interesting. Can't argue with facts, however the two big ones rape and assault could be down to lack of reporting in Ireland? That's just a first impression though nothing to back it up.

According to the CIA World Factbook, Ireland has a 36.4% unemployment rate for males 15-24 while the UK only has 23.4% which to me would paint a more depressing picture for Ireland. In general though the CIA world Factbook is good for getting an overview, and it does say that 15% of the population in the UK is below the poverty line and that only 5.5% of Ireland is. I'm still yet to be convinced that the poor are poorer in the UK though, all I can see is that there are more poor people per capita.

RedemptionZ · 22-07-2015 01:55AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Scotland's murder rate is 2.33 !!

Glasgow 3.3

UNODC reported 6.2 globally in 2012. That's with all the developed nations bringing it down. Now that's a sad thought, those poor places in Ireland and the UK suddenly don't look so bad!

Kwiecien · 22-07-2015 02:04AM

Most of us here in Ireland have ancestors who were very poor, very few of us are descended from aristocracy.

Old Money isn't really a thing here, but in the UK it is.

We are probably more similar to other Europeans in that respect than the British. But because we share language, have family members in the UK (a lot of emigration over the years....), we tend to compare ourselves to them.

We are Irish. We are unique. We are feckin great

LDN_Irish · 22-07-2015 02:46AM

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Hmm interesting. Can't argue with facts, however the two big ones rape and assault could be down to lack of reporting in Ireland? That's just a first impression though nothing to back it up.

Rape, very possibly IMO. We already know that rape is significantly underreported so it seems as likely that this is more of a problem in Ireland that it does that there's actually that disparity in actual cases. I don't think the same for assault because the UN reports only record assault if it results in "significant bodily injury" which I think on a cultural level would probably involve calling the police equally, being that there isn't a significant cultural stigma with being assaulted in the same way. Robbery isn't surprising at all to me because it's really common there, most people in the college I was in raised their hands when asked if they'd had a robbery or attempted robbery on them. I had 3 attempts in 4 years on me!

I'm not sure about whether there is more poverty statistically, but living conditions certainly seem much worse in social housing and poorer areas there. Going back to Ballybrack(just as an example, not a direct comparison to anywhere) you'd probably agree that's it's a fairly pleasant looking place with relatively good housing units, it's not full of tower blocks or anything. High rise estates of very run down flats is very common in all British cities and their surrounding suburban areas.

Check out some of these:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ferrier+estate&client=ms-android-hms-vf-ie&espvd=1&biw=360&bih=559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI9Lrpps7txgIV5AjbCh0V4QuS

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ferrier+estate&client=ms-android-hms-vf-ie&espvd=1&biw=360&bih=559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI9Lrpps7txgIV5AjbCh0V4QuS#tbm=isch&q=aylesbury+estate

They're particularly bad examples, they've both had demolition started on them in the last 5 years, but there are tower blocks and low rise flats similar enough literally all over the place with people packed in on top of each other. It certainly makes the places feel a lot tenser and I'm sure it is a large contributor to the increased crime rates on the stats.

Junkyard Tom · 22-07-2015 04:16AM

Kalman wrote: »

I loved London [still do] . In the late 1950's , to me it was the most exciting place on earth.

The night life, I adored ! I was young with money to spend .Saturday nights at the Hammersmith Palais, it was there that I learnt to dance and I soon became endearingly vulnerable to the charms of the beautiful ladies that I danced the 'Foxtrot' with .:) [I still am];)

There are slums in all cities over the world.

I worked in the East-End, [Brick Lane] in the leather trade; my employer was Jewish and I loved to listen to the 'Yiddish Spiel. I loved the bagels and jelly eels from 'Tubby Isaacs over on Goulston Street

I took lodgings in Seven Sisters Road, not far from 'Sadler's Wells Theatre ' where I became a regular visitor.

A Red Rover' bus ticket bought on Saturdays would take me up to the West-End and maybe a walk and a drink in Soho.

Then on to Pride & Clark over in Stockwell to sit astride their big beautiful motorbikes. On a Saturday night, maybe a trip over to West-Ham for a drink at Billy walker's 'Knockout Club.

London is a great place. You get good and no-so-good everywhere, life is what you make it!

If this was the introduction to a book I would buy it.

RedemptionZ · 22-07-2015 05:17AM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Rape, very possibly IMO. We already know that rape is significantly underreported so it seems as likely that this is more of a problem in Ireland that it does that there's actually that disparity in actual cases. I don't think the same for assault because the UN reports only record assault if it results in "significant bodily injury" which I think on a cultural level would probably involve calling the police equally, being that there isn't a significant cultural stigma with being assaulted in the same way. Robbery isn't surprising at all to me because it's really common there, most people in the college I was in raised their hands when asked if they'd had a robbery or attempted robbery on them. I had 3 attempts in 4 years on me!

I'm not sure about whether there is more poverty statistically, but living conditions certainly seem much worse in social housing and poorer areas there. Going back to Ballybrack(just as an example, not a direct comparison to anywhere) you'd probably agree that's it's a fairly pleasant looking place with relatively good housing units, it's not full of tower blocks or anything. High rise estates of very run down flats is very common in all British cities and their surrounding suburban areas.

Check out some of these:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ferrier+estate&client=ms-android-hms-vf-ie&espvd=1&biw=360&bih=559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI9Lrpps7txgIV5AjbCh0V4QuS

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ferrier+estate&client=ms-android-hms-vf-ie&espvd=1&biw=360&bih=559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI9Lrpps7txgIV5AjbCh0V4QuS#tbm=isch&q=aylesbury+estate

They're particularly bad examples, they've both had demolition started on them in the last 5 years, but there are tower blocks and low rise flats similar enough literally all over the place with people packed in on top of each other. It certainly makes the places feel a lot tenser and I'm sure it is a large contributor to the increased crime rates on the stats.

I suppose this is where the small country vs bigger country comes into play, Dublin still has plenty of flats, but obviously our population is a lot less dense so there's no need for widespread flats in the cities(we only really have about one maybe two cities!). The worst of them have been demolished, like Ballymun flats, Teresas Gardens and St. Michaels Inchicore, but there's still loads left. All the inner city ones, there's loads round Kevin St. In South Dublin there's the Rosemount flats in Dundrum, I think they're still around and they were ****e and an eyesore. Ringsend has them, Rathmines, fairly sure somewhere round Rathfarnham has some, and there's flats near the Supervalu in Churchtown that are definitely ugly enough to be considered crimes against vision. Tallaght has Jobstown, Ballyer has it's bad estates etc. Don't want to turn it into a dick measuring contest because at the end of the day, considering we live in Ireland it's probably better if we have a higher quality of living for our poor! I'm just mainly wondering how people come to this conclusion, considering the vast majority seem to think so.

Ireland v The UK

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