Ireland v The UK

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 06:44PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Your impression on wealth levels would be way off. Ireland had a sectoral collapse causing high unemployment in construction related sectors. It's absolutely a wealthy country and on most matrices other than debt levels, is wealthier than the UK per capita.

Based on GDP I take it?

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 06:45PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

never met any UK citizen over here who was on the dole

I can think of several off hand just of people I know.

Geuze · 21-07-2015 06:47PM

mariaalice wrote: »

yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

Incomes per capita are higher in Ireland.

But Britain is a wealthier country, in that they have been rich for much longer.

We only really got rich post 1987.

Amirani · 21-07-2015 06:49PM

UK has a lot more wealth, built up over generations. In terms of income, the averages and medians across both countries may be broadly similar, but there'd be much more variance in the UK - far higher highs, but also lower lows.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 06:50PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Based on GDP I take it?

Based on GDP and on spending power. The UK is often totally distorted by huge and very concentrated wealth in the a few very affluent areas of the Southeast.

Also UK GDP itself is distorted by the similar oversized financial services sector stuff.

There is very real poverty and it's been made umpteen times worse by recent Tory policies of penalising people for minor issues.

There are a lot of issues with really frightening poverty where someone in Britain falls off benefits and can't cope at all. Some very horrific stories of people starving to death, dying of cold and suicides etc etc

I'm not in favour of people making a lifestyle out of the social welfare system but I'm totally against the other extreme. Some people actually do fall on hard times or aren't very capable of supporting themselves. I don't think punishing people for being poor really helps very much at all.

FortySeven · 21-07-2015 06:53PM

Kalani Nutritious Soloist wrote: »

There are plenty. And even more from the UK drawing Old Age Pension here because of the additional benefits we have.

Like the wonderful healthcare system?

It's not really the money, in Scotland pensioners get free personal care at home. My Grandparents just had their house (mortgage paid off) externally insulated for free, their stairs were widened and they had a hearing loop fitted. All free. They get visits regularly from a qualified care assistant who looks at their needs and gets them sorted.

You'd be mad to retire to Ireland. At the time in your life when you most need healthcare, this would be the last country in Europe I would move to.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 06:55PM

My grand aunt is on the state pension in Ireland and has cancer.

Treatment had been excellent. Literally cannot fault it - very high tech, very effective and has prolonged and improved the quality of her life.

She got her house adapted, her bathroom upgraded and central heating installed through grant aid.

She's options of home help packages which she currently doesn't need but they are there.

My granny had similar levels of support : bathrooms adapted, doors adapted, grab bars fitted etc etc

Also had actually really good care from HSE for a very serious terminal cancer.

She'd good levels of home help care without being intrusive and has access to both nursing home and hospice options.

We actually spend more per capita on health than the UK does.

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 07:02PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Based on GDP and on spending power. The UK is often totally distorted by huge and very concentrated wealth in the a few very affluent areas of the Southeast.

Also UK GDP itself is distorted by the similar oversized financial services sector stuff.

There is very real poverty and it's been made umpteen times worse by recent Tory policies of penalising people for minor issues.

There are a lot of issues with really frightening poverty where someone in Britain falls off benefits and can't cope at all. Some very horrific stories of people starving to death, dying of cold and suicides etc etc

I'm not in favour of people making a lifestyle out of the social welfare system but I'm totally against the other extreme. Some people actually do fall on hard times or aren't very capable of supporting themselves. I don't think punishing people for being poor really helps very much at all.

I fail to see how that is any different to Ireland?

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 07:04PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I fail to see how that is any different to Ireland?

They've a system of infractions for job seekers who fail to meet certain targets / comply with job centre requests.

In some cases cutting someone's income to a level that they can't afford to eat when they're perhaps actually incapable of work or are severely depressed just causes them to not eat / die.

Google a bit on the UK's recent reforms and you'll find quite a few issues.

That kind of thing for example :

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/28/man-starved-to-death-after-benefits-cut

Beefy78 · 21-07-2015 07:11PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

What I've noticed from being over there quite a lot and from programmes like How To Get A Council House, Benefits Street, Skint etc. is that the Social over there take no prisoners ......... if they say "Do this course/take this job or you get no money" they aren't joking ......... likewise if they say "Take this accommodation or you're on the street", again, they are not joking.

You would think that but I can tell you that I was on JSA for a year between 2004 and 2005 and I just got given the cash every week. No checks no real questions asked.

I used to hear some people getting absolute grillings there over where and when they'd been looking for work but I think they just assumed that because I was a graduate I was firing off a dozen CVs a day.

FortySeven · 21-07-2015 07:11PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

My grand aunt is on the state pension in Ireland and has cancer.

Treatment had been excellent. Literally cannot fault it - very high tech, very effective and has prolonged and improved the quality of her life.

She got her house adapted, her bathroom upgraded and central heating installed through grant aid.

She's options of home help packages which she currently doesn't need but they are there.

My granny had similar levels of support : bathrooms adapted, doors adapted, grab bars fitted etc etc

Also had actually really good care from HSE for a very serious terminal cancer.

She'd good levels of home help care without being intrusive and has access to both nursing home and hospice options.

We actually spend more per capita on health than the UK does.

My Grandparents are perfectly healthy. That's the difference. It's not because they are sick. It's just to help them live at home.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 07:12PM

FortySeven wrote: »

My Grandparents are perfectly healthy. That's the difference. It's not because they are sick. It's just to help them live at home.

Those grants for home upgrades and adaption are available to anyone over 65 here. Just contact your local council.

Beefy78 · 21-07-2015 07:15PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

UK has a lot more wealth, built up over generations. In terms of income, the averages and medians across both countries may be broadly similar, but there'd be much more variance in the UK - far higher highs, but also lower lows.

Different costs of living too across the UK. I appreciate that is the same here but someone's wage in London which could have them on the breadline might be enough to live fairly comfortably in Sheffield or Hull.

The UK shares a lot of the issues that the Eurozone is suffering from - several distinct economies within one currency which is geared for the betterment of one part of it.

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 07:19PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

They've a system of infractions for job seekers who fail to meet certain targets / comply with job centre requests.

In some cases cutting someone's income to a level that they can't afford to eat when they're perhaps actually incapable of work or are severely depressed just causes them to not eat / die.

Google a bit on the UK's recent reforms and you'll find quite a few issues.

That kind of thing for example :

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/28/man-starved-to-death-after-benefits-cut

I know, I'm just asking how that differs from Ireland. There is extreme poverty here, but as it is a much smaller country, it is less obvious.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 07:19PM

Welfare spend as a % of GDP is actually similar but Irish GDP per capita is higher.

You've also got a centre left economic stance here vs very harshly centre right in Britain at the moment.

There'll be big differences in how policies are rolled out.

I don't think there's quite as much hostility towards the welfare state here - people know they might need it. In lots of parts of England there's a hardline economically right wing element that doesn't really exisit here.

Yeah, Ireland can be quite liberally pro business and deregulating but it's high spend where it can spend. That's not the case under Tory policies which would be cut tax and cut spending.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-07-2015 07:22PM

FortySeven wrote: »

Like the wonderful healthcare system?

It's not really the money, in Scotland pensioners get free personal care at home. My Grandparents just had their house (mortgage paid off) externally insulated for free, their stairs were widened and they had a hearing loop fitted. All free. They get visits regularly from a qualified care assistant who looks at their needs and gets them sorted.

You'd be mad to retire to Ireland. At the time in your life when you most need healthcare, this would be the last country in Europe I would move to.

Speaking as someone long retired, can I say you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Home insulation? Yes, provided here too. House alterations? Yes, available here too. Home care? Yes again. Electricity allowance, phone, travel, fuel allowance etc much better here. As is the basic rate of pension. Health care absolutely fine. I have many acquaintances who retired to Ireland from the UK because of the better benefits and care. Actual people not anecdotes.

LDN_Irish · 21-07-2015 07:23PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Aye, some of what's deemed "rough" here is hilarious. And I'm from a middle-class background myself so it's not like I'm really "Street tough" or whatever

Bunch of young fellas in tracksuits hanging around outside Spar in a middle-class area is enough for it to have become rough in some people's minds. I'm from Cork though, which is an incredibly safe area (relatively obviously, it's not perfect) overall. Dublin and limerick would have tougher spots, but even so, like you say, still not always as hard as equivalents in the UK. As said though, an incomparable population.

And there's me thinking cork was rough because I was listening to the same chatter I'm laughing at when it's about South Dublin!

On another note, crack really did british cities no favours. Our heroin problem is much more visible but that crack is something else. They're gumming for a fix 20 mins after their last one. I'd sooner they put a phy clinic in every town then have that **** catching on here.

Fratton Fred · 21-07-2015 07:32PM

Kalani Nutritious Soloist wrote: »

Speaking as someone long retired, can I say you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Home insulation? Yes, provided here too. House alterations? Yes, available here too. Home care? Yes again. Electricity allowance, phone, travel, fuel allowance etc much better here. As is the basic rate of pension. Health care absolutely fine. I have many acquaintances who retired to Ireland from the UK because of the better benefits and care. Actual people not anecdotes.

The retired people from the UK that I've met here moved over as tax exiles. Moving their pension lump sum to an Irish bank saves a furtune in tax.

Massimo Cassagrande · 21-07-2015 07:37PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

They have a large number of obscenely wealthy people but also a very large number of extremely poor people. Some parts of the UK can look like a warzone, but then again look at Dublin city centre, a five minute walk in certain places can take you from a really expensive posh area to a run down area badly in need of investment and refurbishment.

No it bleedin doesn't??

Are you saying there's areas in Dublin that compare with street after burnt-out street - like in Liverpool or the kips of London?? Not a hope is there. I've drivven in every nook and cranny of Dublin and there's nothing to even vaguely compare to the kips of London. Dublin rough is posh compared to London rough.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-07-2015 07:37PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The retired people from the UK that I've met here moved over as tax exiles. Moving their pension lump sum to an Irish bank saves a furtune in tax.

The ones I know are not on private pensions.

Kalman · 21-07-2015 07:42PM

mariaalice wrote: »

I watched the documentary on C4 last night called how to get a council house, a bit depressing however it struck me watching it that the poor in the UK are poorer than in Irish society yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

We must not forget that the UK has a population of 64 million.

Southern Ireland's, by comparison is roughly 4 million.
A vast difference. So we really can't compare the two countries .

FortySeven · 21-07-2015 08:02PM

Kalani Nutritious Soloist wrote: »

Speaking as someone long retired, can I say you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Home insulation? Yes, provided here too. House alterations? Yes, available here too. Home care? Yes again. Electricity allowance, phone, travel, fuel allowance etc much better here. As is the basic rate of pension. Health care absolutely fine. I have many acquaintances who retired to Ireland from the UK because of the better benefits and care. Actual people not anecdotes.

You can say that. It seems I do not. I had no idea that was available here. I learn something new everyday.

So that's where all my tax money goes? Letting you old buggers live the life of Riley eh?

Herb Powell · 21-07-2015 08:06PM

Kalman wrote: »

We must not forget that the UK has a population of 64 million.

Southern Ireland's, by comparison is roughly 4 million.
A vast difference. So we really can't compare the two countries .

I'm going to be a pedantic cunnt and say Ireland - Northern Ireland =/= Southern Ireland, logical as that may well appear.

average hero · 21-07-2015 08:09PM

A lot of very good points being made on this thread. I lived in Ireland until last year and have since moved to the UK. My job involves me travelling around the UK (particularly the north) and London so have a bit of exposure to this stuff.

Firstly, I agree that poor in Ireland, while horrible is not quite like the levels of poverty in certain cities in England such as Liverpool, Leeds or even some areas of London. With that being said, levels of wealth where it is concentrated (south east and certain areas of London) are much higher than in Ireland.

Since moving over here, I have become proud of how we treat people in Ireland. In the UK, as has been stated, the conditions to dole can be very harsh indeed. Under Tory rule, this has become very harsh indeed.

Class warfare is very prevalent here in the UK. In Ireland, people seem to be more "as one". While there can be a little bit of class-ism in Ireland, it is NOTHING to what is prevalent here. It manifests itself in voting party, area where you live/grew up, and particularly education. The Tory's have removed education grants for poorer families for university, making it harder to go even with tuition loans. Also, the country has a huge amount of willing immigrants from both inside and outside the EU to do part-time or more blue-collar work. Oftentimes for cheaper than the indigineous people.

Quite frankly, I would much prefer to be relatively poor in Ireland than relatively poor in the UK. At least in Ireland there is more chance of getting a quality education and pulling yourself up.

*With all of this said, the UK is great in ways and this is not a "bashing" post*

Eugene Norman · 21-07-2015 08:12PM

Geuze wrote: »

Incomes per capita are higher in Ireland.

But Britain is a wealthier country, in that they have been rich for much longer.

We only really got rich post 1987.

Very good point. Wealth != income.

SpaceTime · 21-07-2015 08:14PM

Kalman wrote: »

We must not forget that the UK has a population of 64 million.

Southern Ireland's, by comparison is roughly 4 million.
A vast difference. So we really can't compare the two countries .

Of course we can. That's why most international comparisons are per capita.

Eugene Norman · 21-07-2015 08:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know, I'm just asking how that differs from Ireland. There is extreme poverty here, but as it is a much smaller country, it is less obvious.

Surely a smaller country would make it more obvious. There are people living in England who've never seen poverty.

We have much higher welfare payments than the UK so it's likely the claim that the poverty is ameliorated here is true. And fewer bankers. Less established wealth. The rest is the same.

Kalman · 21-07-2015 08:23PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

I'm going to be a pedantic cunnt and say Ireland - Northern Ireland =/= Southern Ireland, logical as that may well appear.

The figure quoted is for the Republic Of Ireland.

sabat · 21-07-2015 08:32PM

The worst scummers in England are 100 times worse than their Irish equivalents. I'm talking about those shaven-headed, sunken-eyed guys with spiderweb tattoos on their faces, big sovereign rings and chains and just a real nasty vibe off them.

WesternZulu · 21-07-2015 08:34PM

I lived in Wales for years and there is definitely more noticeable abject poverty there than what I see in Ireland and I have often commented on it!

The class system is definitely more defined over in the UK and it's not a good thing.

It always makes me laugh when people say Ireland is a hole compared to the UK, like it was some sort of utopia where there are no social injustices...as a country it has some great aspects, and like every other country in the world it has got some not so good aspects.

Ireland v The UK

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