Ireland v The UK

I watched the documentary on C4 last night called how to get a council house, a bit depressing however it struck me watching it that the poor in the UK are poorer than in Irish society yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

LDN_Irish

mariaalice wrote: »

I watched the documentary on C4 last night called how to get a council house, a bit depressing however it struck me watching it that the poor in the UK are poorer than in Irish society yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

I very rarely see the poverty in Dublin that I used to see in most of London, even ones that would be considered middle class like Greenwich for example. I live in South Dublin though so maybe it's different elsewhere.

darkpagandeath

They are a far more wealthy country. But class plays a big role. Lots of areas employment black spots.

Menas

Aren't our social welfare benefits over here more generous even when cost of living is accounted for?

BoJack Horseman

Slightly lower per capita than Ireland.

Their poor certainly seem poorer than Ireland's.

darkpagandeath

Menas wrote: »

Aren't our social welfare benefits over here more generous even when cost of living is accounted for?

monitarily yes.

zeffabelli

I remember when I visited London how shocked I was of how many of the homeless were Irish.

Fratton Fred

How can you compare the two? They are two very very different countries.

I suppose you could try and compare like towns with each other, for example I've often thought Tallaght and Slough are similar, but ultimately you are comparing a small, largely agricultural country of under five million, with a much larger country of nearly seventy million.

Jotunheim

I's like, yeah but no but innit bruv.

Fratton Fred

Jotunheim wrote: »

I's like, yeah but no but innit bruv.

It is, to be shure to be shure.

ihavenoname3

thats why they come over here for the dole. go into any post office on a wednesday and there is always some English hippy or some former jeremy kyle guest getting their dole.

blastman

LDN_Irish wrote: »

I live in South Dublin though so maybe it's different elsewhere.

I think you could safely assume that.

darkpagandeath

ihavenoname3 wrote: »

thats why they come over here for the dole. go into any post office on a wednesday and there is always some English hippy or some former jeremy kyle guest getting their dole.

You could say the same over there.

SEPT 23 1989

ihavenoname3 wrote: »

thats why they come over here for the dole. go into any post office on a wednesday and there is always some English hippy or some former jeremy kyle guest getting their dole.

never met any UK citizen over here who was on the dole

LDN_Irish

blastman wrote: »

I think you could safely assume that.

Yeah I know, I just didn't want to let on that I think the north side is a ****hole. Even in places with bad reps like Tallaght and Clondalkin you don't see the same kind of stuff as you do in Woolwich, Deptford, Plaistow, Forest Gate etc.

Harry Palmr

The standard JSA "dole" payment in the UK is a bit better than half what it is here £73.10 or €104 for the over 25s

LDN_Irish

A lot of South Dubliners are spoilt rotten though and don't even know it. "North of Shankill church is a no go area." "Ballybrack is an awful kip!" "Bray is a very rough town!" LOeffinL yiz haven't a clue.

Arsemageddon

If I was to sign on in the UK would I be entitled to 800 years back payment?

There, I said it, 800 years!

The_Valeyard

They have a large number of obscenely wealthy people but also a very large number of extremely poor people. Some parts of the UK can look like a warzone, but then again look at Dublin city centre, a five minute walk in certain places can take you from a really expensive posh area to a run down area badly in need of investment and refurbishment.

MadDog76

What I've noticed from being over there quite a lot and from programmes like How To Get A Council House, Benefits Street, Skint etc. is that the Social over there take no prisoners ......... if they say "Do this course/take this job or you get no money" they aren't joking ......... likewise if they say "Take this accommodation or you're on the street", again, they are not joking.

Cold War Kid

LDN_Irish wrote: »

A lot of South Dubliners are spoilt rotten though and don't even know it. "North of Shankill church is a no go area." "Ballybrack is an awful kip!" "Bray is a very rough town!" LOeffinL yiz haven't a clue.

Aye, some of what's deemed "rough" here is hilarious. And I'm from a middle-class background myself so it's not like I'm really "Street tough" or whatever

Bunch of young fellas in tracksuits hanging around outside Spar in a middle-class area is enough for it to have become rough in some people's minds. I'm from Cork though, which is an incredibly safe area (relatively obviously, it's not perfect) overall. Dublin and limerick would have tougher spots, but even so, like you say, still not always as hard as equivalents in the UK. As said though, an incomparable population.

Sleepy

The long term unemployed of the UK holiday in old school campsites in North Wales.
The long term unemployed of Ireland holiday in High Rise Apartments in Santa Ponza / Salou.

Tells you everything you need to know tbh.

eezipc

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Yeah I know, I just didn't want to let on that I think the north side is a ****hole. Even in places with bad reps like Tallaght and Clondalkin you don't see the same kind of stuff as you do in Woolwich, Deptford, Plaistow, Forest Gate etc.

Jaysus, I remember going to look at an apartment to rent in Plaistow a couple of years ago. I turned around as soon as I came out of the tube station.

fleet_admiral

Most of the Old Kent Road in London reminds me of Dolphins Barn, south Dublin
I walked it alone late at night and the wifes uncle nearly had a heart attack

goose2005

mariaalice wrote: »

I watched the documentary on C4 last night called how to get a council house, a bit depressing however it struck me watching it that the poor in the UK are poorer than in Irish society yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

But if you saw an Irish show about how to get a council house, you'd call them spongers and liars and point out how good their shoes/phones look.

What I've noticed from being over there quite a lot and from programmes like How To Get A Council House, Benefits Street, Skint etc. is that the Social over there take no prisoners ......... if they say "Do this course/take this job or you get no money" they aren't joking ......... likewise if they say "Take this accommodation or you're on the street", again, they are not joking.

Is that a good thing?

Cold War Kid

goose2005 wrote: »

But if you saw an Irish show about how to get a council house, you'd call them spongers and liars and point out how good their shoes/phones look.

Is that a good thing?

Ah here, how do you know what mariaalice would say about a similarly themed Irish show?

MadDog76

MadDog76 wrote: »

What I've noticed from being over there quite a lot and from programmes like How To Get A Council House, Benefits Street, Skint etc. is that the Social over there take no prisoners ......... if they say "Do this course/take this job or you get no money" they aren't joking ......... likewise if they say "Take this accommodation or you're on the street", again, they are not joking.

goose2005 wrote: »

Is that a good thing?

What do you think?

fiachr_a

zeffabelli wrote: »

I remember when I visited London how shocked I was of how many of the homeless were Irish.

Bet a lot of them had no daddy growing up and teachers made the class aware of it.

Have been around Yorkshire a lot and the contrast over there seems more obvious than here, you could be in beautiful Haworth in a queue of 4x4s and next you're in Keighley, one of the ugliest roughest towns you could hope to find. Real urban rural divide there, beautiful countryside with everyone voting conservative, grim urban areas racked by unemployment returning Labour MPs.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

never met any UK citizen over here who was on the dole

There are plenty. And even more from the UK drawing Old Age Pension here because of the additional benefits we have.

SpaceTime

mariaalice wrote: »

I watched the documentary on C4 last night called how to get a council house, a bit depressing however it struck me watching it that the poor in the UK are poorer than in Irish society yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

Your impression on wealth levels would be way off. Ireland had a sectoral collapse causing high unemployment in construction related sectors. It's absolutely a wealthy country and on most matrices other than debt levels, is wealthier than the UK per capita.

Fratton Fred

SpaceTime wrote: »

Your impression on wealth levels would be way off. Ireland had a sectoral collapse causing high unemployment in construction related sectors. It's absolutely a wealthy country and on most matrices other than debt levels, is wealthier than the UK per capita.

Based on GDP I take it?

SpaceTime

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

never met any UK citizen over here who was on the dole

I can think of several off hand just of people I know.

Geuze

mariaalice wrote: »

yet we would have the impression that the UK is a far wealthier country that we are but maybe not.

Incomes per capita are higher in Ireland.

But Britain is a wealthier country, in that they have been rich for much longer.

We only really got rich post 1987.

Amirani

UK has a lot more wealth, built up over generations. In terms of income, the averages and medians across both countries may be broadly similar, but there'd be much more variance in the UK - far higher highs, but also lower lows.

SpaceTime

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Based on GDP I take it?

Based on GDP and on spending power. The UK is often totally distorted by huge and very concentrated wealth in the a few very affluent areas of the Southeast.

Also UK GDP itself is distorted by the similar oversized financial services sector stuff.

There is very real poverty and it's been made umpteen times worse by recent Tory policies of penalising people for minor issues.

There are a lot of issues with really frightening poverty where someone in Britain falls off benefits and can't cope at all. Some very horrific stories of people starving to death, dying of cold and suicides etc etc

I'm not in favour of people making a lifestyle out of the social welfare system but I'm totally against the other extreme. Some people actually do fall on hard times or aren't very capable of supporting themselves. I don't think punishing people for being poor really helps very much at all.

FortySeven

Kalani Nutritious Soloist wrote: »

There are plenty. And even more from the UK drawing Old Age Pension here because of the additional benefits we have.

Like the wonderful healthcare system?

It's not really the money, in Scotland pensioners get free personal care at home. My Grandparents just had their house (mortgage paid off) externally insulated for free, their stairs were widened and they had a hearing loop fitted. All free. They get visits regularly from a qualified care assistant who looks at their needs and gets them sorted.

You'd be mad to retire to Ireland. At the time in your life when you most need healthcare, this would be the last country in Europe I would move to.

SpaceTime

My grand aunt is on the state pension in Ireland and has cancer.

Treatment had been excellent. Literally cannot fault it - very high tech, very effective and has prolonged and improved the quality of her life.

She got her house adapted, her bathroom upgraded and central heating installed through grant aid.

She's options of home help packages which she currently doesn't need but they are there.

My granny had similar levels of support : bathrooms adapted, doors adapted, grab bars fitted etc etc

Also had actually really good care from HSE for a very serious terminal cancer.

She'd good levels of home help care without being intrusive and has access to both nursing home and hospice options.

We actually spend more per capita on health than the UK does.

Fratton Fred

SpaceTime wrote: »

Based on GDP and on spending power. The UK is often totally distorted by huge and very concentrated wealth in the a few very affluent areas of the Southeast.

Also UK GDP itself is distorted by the similar oversized financial services sector stuff.

There is very real poverty and it's been made umpteen times worse by recent Tory policies of penalising people for minor issues.

There are a lot of issues with really frightening poverty where someone in Britain falls off benefits and can't cope at all. Some very horrific stories of people starving to death, dying of cold and suicides etc etc

I'm not in favour of people making a lifestyle out of the social welfare system but I'm totally against the other extreme. Some people actually do fall on hard times or aren't very capable of supporting themselves. I don't think punishing people for being poor really helps very much at all.

I fail to see how that is any different to Ireland?

SpaceTime

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I fail to see how that is any different to Ireland?

They've a system of infractions for job seekers who fail to meet certain targets / comply with job centre requests.

In some cases cutting someone's income to a level that they can't afford to eat when they're perhaps actually incapable of work or are severely depressed just causes them to not eat / die.

Google a bit on the UK's recent reforms and you'll find quite a few issues.

That kind of thing for example :

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/28/man-starved-to-death-after-benefits-cut

Beefy78

MadDog76 wrote: »

What I've noticed from being over there quite a lot and from programmes like How To Get A Council House, Benefits Street, Skint etc. is that the Social over there take no prisoners ......... if they say "Do this course/take this job or you get no money" they aren't joking ......... likewise if they say "Take this accommodation or you're on the street", again, they are not joking.

You would think that but I can tell you that I was on JSA for a year between 2004 and 2005 and I just got given the cash every week. No checks no real questions asked.

I used to hear some people getting absolute grillings there over where and when they'd been looking for work but I think they just assumed that because I was a graduate I was firing off a dozen CVs a day.

FortySeven

SpaceTime wrote: »

My grand aunt is on the state pension in Ireland and has cancer.

Treatment had been excellent. Literally cannot fault it - very high tech, very effective and has prolonged and improved the quality of her life.

She got her house adapted, her bathroom upgraded and central heating installed through grant aid.

She's options of home help packages which she currently doesn't need but they are there.

My granny had similar levels of support : bathrooms adapted, doors adapted, grab bars fitted etc etc

Also had actually really good care from HSE for a very serious terminal cancer.

She'd good levels of home help care without being intrusive and has access to both nursing home and hospice options.

We actually spend more per capita on health than the UK does.

My Grandparents are perfectly healthy. That's the difference. It's not because they are sick. It's just to help them live at home.

SpaceTime

FortySeven wrote: »

My Grandparents are perfectly healthy. That's the difference. It's not because they are sick. It's just to help them live at home.

Those grants for home upgrades and adaption are available to anyone over 65 here. Just contact your local council.

Beefy78

Diego Simeone wrote: »

UK has a lot more wealth, built up over generations. In terms of income, the averages and medians across both countries may be broadly similar, but there'd be much more variance in the UK - far higher highs, but also lower lows.

Different costs of living too across the UK. I appreciate that is the same here but someone's wage in London which could have them on the breadline might be enough to live fairly comfortably in Sheffield or Hull.

The UK shares a lot of the issues that the Eurozone is suffering from - several distinct economies within one currency which is geared for the betterment of one part of it.

Fratton Fred

SpaceTime wrote: »

They've a system of infractions for job seekers who fail to meet certain targets / comply with job centre requests.

In some cases cutting someone's income to a level that they can't afford to eat when they're perhaps actually incapable of work or are severely depressed just causes them to not eat / die.

Google a bit on the UK's recent reforms and you'll find quite a few issues.

That kind of thing for example :

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/28/man-starved-to-death-after-benefits-cut

I know, I'm just asking how that differs from Ireland. There is extreme poverty here, but as it is a much smaller country, it is less obvious.

SpaceTime

Welfare spend as a % of GDP is actually similar but Irish GDP per capita is higher.

You've also got a centre left economic stance here vs very harshly centre right in Britain at the moment.

There'll be big differences in how policies are rolled out.

I don't think there's quite as much hostility towards the welfare state here - people know they might need it. In lots of parts of England there's a hardline economically right wing element that doesn't really exisit here.

Yeah, Ireland can be quite liberally pro business and deregulating but it's high spend where it can spend. That's not the case under Tory policies which would be cut tax and cut spending.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

FortySeven wrote: »

Like the wonderful healthcare system?

It's not really the money, in Scotland pensioners get free personal care at home. My Grandparents just had their house (mortgage paid off) externally insulated for free, their stairs were widened and they had a hearing loop fitted. All free. They get visits regularly from a qualified care assistant who looks at their needs and gets them sorted.

You'd be mad to retire to Ireland. At the time in your life when you most need healthcare, this would be the last country in Europe I would move to.

Speaking as someone long retired, can I say you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Home insulation? Yes, provided here too. House alterations? Yes, available here too. Home care? Yes again. Electricity allowance, phone, travel, fuel allowance etc much better here. As is the basic rate of pension. Health care absolutely fine. I have many acquaintances who retired to Ireland from the UK because of the better benefits and care. Actual people not anecdotes.

LDN_Irish

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Aye, some of what's deemed "rough" here is hilarious. And I'm from a middle-class background myself so it's not like I'm really "Street tough" or whatever

Bunch of young fellas in tracksuits hanging around outside Spar in a middle-class area is enough for it to have become rough in some people's minds. I'm from Cork though, which is an incredibly safe area (relatively obviously, it's not perfect) overall. Dublin and limerick would have tougher spots, but even so, like you say, still not always as hard as equivalents in the UK. As said though, an incomparable population.

And there's me thinking cork was rough because I was listening to the same chatter I'm laughing at when it's about South Dublin!

On another note, crack really did british cities no favours. Our heroin problem is much more visible but that crack is something else. They're gumming for a fix 20 mins after their last one. I'd sooner they put a phy clinic in every town then have that **** catching on here.

Fratton Fred

Kalani Nutritious Soloist wrote: »

Speaking as someone long retired, can I say you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Home insulation? Yes, provided here too. House alterations? Yes, available here too. Home care? Yes again. Electricity allowance, phone, travel, fuel allowance etc much better here. As is the basic rate of pension. Health care absolutely fine. I have many acquaintances who retired to Ireland from the UK because of the better benefits and care. Actual people not anecdotes.

The retired people from the UK that I've met here moved over as tax exiles. Moving their pension lump sum to an Irish bank saves a furtune in tax.

Massimo Cassagrande

The_Valeyard wrote: »

They have a large number of obscenely wealthy people but also a very large number of extremely poor people. Some parts of the UK can look like a warzone, but then again look at Dublin city centre, a five minute walk in certain places can take you from a really expensive posh area to a run down area badly in need of investment and refurbishment.

No it bleedin doesn't?? Are you saying there's areas in Dublin that compare with street after burnt-out street - like in Liverpool or the kips of London?? Not a hope is there. I've drivven in every nook and cranny of Dublin and there's nothing to even vaguely compare to the kips of London. Dublin rough is posh compared to London rough.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The retired people from the UK that I've met here moved over as tax exiles. Moving their pension lump sum to an Irish bank saves a furtune in tax.

The ones I know are not on private pensions.