Teachers pull yet another stroke

coolbeans · 18-07-2015 5:16pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Ye must be the working in lowest of the low sector, janitors or something like that?. 4 weeks holiday must surely be unheard of in the PS.

When I worked in the public sector four weeks was the holiday time. Could even be less, three weeks. Not sure what it is now.

On another point I really take issue with this tarring ps workers with the same brush. I saw lots of inefficiencies in my time there but there were also a lot of talented and committed people doing a decent job well worth what they were paid. It's just intellectually lazy and insulting to pretend otherwise and that's why I took issue with Kermit.de.frog and his lazy "they're all takers" approach to his argument. PS needs constant reform but so does regulation of the private sector and to deny either points is disingenuous tripe worthy of the Daily Mail.

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 5:38pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Four weeks is the starting entitlement. I think it goes up after a few years - could be wrong. Same as private sector.

If you know different, feel free to correct me.

.

See above. Just as I suspected.

Alex Meier · 18-07-2015 6:54pm

Rightwing wrote: »

The minimum is 4 weeks off - statutory. So there is something wrong somewhere

This article sheds some light on holiday entitlements, but I'm not sure if Croke Park deals etc have axed a day or two off:

How old is the article?

Vizzy · 18-07-2015 7:02pm

Rightwing wrote: »

John McGuinness, a junior enterprise minister, has already supported calls for a temporary pay freeze."

Is this the same John McGuinness who is chairman of PAC ?

Cos he hasn't been a junior environment minister since at least 2011.

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 7:02pm

Alex Meier wrote: »

How old is the article?

Not sure - around Croke Park deal time I believe.

I thought the 'rest days' was PS classic at its best:

On top that, the presumably harder-working superintendent is entitled to 86 rest days, as opposed to a chief superintendent, who gets four rest days for every four weeks he works.

Rest days, chuckle chuckle. What else are they hiding lol

Alex Meier · 18-07-2015 7:03pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Not sure - around Croke Park deal time I believe.

It's about 5-6 years ago so. . .Any up to date information?

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 7:06pm

Alex Meier wrote: »

It's about 5-6 years ago so. . .Any up to date information?

I would imagine all we need do is subtract 1 or 2 rest days to arrive at that.

gaiscioch · 18-07-2015 7:37pm

Rightwing wrote: »

He had no choice on the matter, they are your employer. Just like if our bank has a poor year, bonuses will suffer. I can't complain about that if punters say in the IT industry get bonuses if they have a profitable year.

Kenny had, and has, full choice when it comes to describing both PRD and USC. He persists in claiming that his government has "never raised income taxes". It is offensive to all of us who pay both of these taxes that he denies they are taxes. Taxes on income in this state have been increased massively when these two taxes are included. For that, and having a speech coach who trained him to pronounce words like John Wayne, Kenny is a disingenuous offensive clown.

Moreover, while I would have agreed fully with you regarding the need for cuts back in 2009, the reality between 2009 and 2015 of wage increases for the advisors of the same government which is implementing these cuts, not to mention the creation of the breathtakingly inefficient Irish Water (and promotion of its creator) so that it will benefit Fine Gael businesses and consultants, belie in its entirety the Fine Gael-encouraged notion that we are all in this suffering together. The Fine Gael party has sacrificed efficiency in government to look after their own supporters. That is the outstanding fact of this government. The "we are all suffering equally here" is Fine Gael propaganda of the most preposterous sort - law reform? accountancy reform? (a glance at the evidence showing a large growth in inequality since the start of this recession confirms my anecdotal experience of who is carrying its cutbacks).

gaiscioch · 18-07-2015 8:09pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Simplistic and true - end of story.

Excellent Nobel Prize-winning grasp of economics there. I propose all 350,000 public servants be sacked because they are only a drain on hardworking taxpayers such as yourself. That's just the boost this economy needs. Well done.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2015 9:33pm

Rightwing wrote: »

See above. Just as I suspected.

None of it disagrees with what I posted.

purplecow1977 · 18-07-2015 9:40pm

Really, there are others more deserving of the agro!

Mr. Jim Higgins
"Mr Higgins' ministerial pension is €5,952, and his Dail pension is €54,890. This is on top of his MEP salary of €91,984"

Source:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/its-all-se-mep-rounds-on-critics-of-study-break-26689969.html

That was 5 years ago. There's probably another pension or two added on since!

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 9:41pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

None of it disagrees with what I posted.

It simply ridicules your 20 day theory. A nurse starts off with 24 days for instance, rising to 27.

Cleaners, law clerks, clerical officers are the ones with 20. They can feel extremely hard done by when some can get 86 rest days on top of annual leave.

purplecow1977 · 18-07-2015 9:45pm

Rightwing wrote: »

It simply ridicules your 20 day theory. A nurse starts off with 24 days for instance, rising to 27.

Cleaners, law clerks, clerical officers are the ones with 20. They can feel extremely hard done by when some can get 86 rest days on top of annual leave.

Hey even I'll complain when i've to head back at the end of August, and I have what, 182 free days?! Jealous, aren't you?! :cool::cool:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2015 9:49pm

Rightwing wrote: »

It simply ridicules your 20 day theory. A nurse starts off with 24 days for instance, rising to 27.

Cleaners, law clerks, clerical officers are the ones with 20. They can feel extremely hard done by when some can get 86 rest days on top of annual leave.

I said 4 weeks was the basic entitlement. Pretty much what you're saying here, bar the nurses. And damn closer that what you suggested below. I never commented on anyone earning 86 days.

Rightwing wrote: »

Ye must be the working in lowest of the low sector, janitors or something like that?. 4 weeks holiday must surely be unheard of in the PS.

Back on topic, though, we're talking about teachers. I've no idea how many days they get (or how many of those that they do get are acgtually spent working) but it's a specialist role. You can't have kids in school 48 weeks of a year simply so teachers have something to do and you can't make up about 10-15 weeks of training for the sake of it (although, that said, I've no idea what their objections are do doing this training outside of term time).

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 9:52pm

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Hey even I'll complain when i've to head back at the end of August, and I have what, 182 free days?! Jealous, aren't you?! :cool::cool:

I wouldn't like to see you amongst others here marking a simple comprehension.

I'm not jealous of the teachers, I would find it mind-numbing work, and time off is necessary for both teacher and student, it's the likes of the superintendent getting 86 rest days that I find wrong, and as you correctly pointed out, these multiple pensions.

Sheldons Brain · 18-07-2015 9:52pm

Rightwing wrote: »

It simply ridicules your 20 day theory. A nurse starts off with 24 days for instance, rising to 27.

Cleaners, law clerks, clerical officers are the ones with 20. They can feel extremely hard done by when some can get 86 rest days on top of annual leave.

Graduate jobs generally have longer jobs throughout the economy. Nothing to see here.

purplecow1977 · 18-07-2015 9:54pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see you amongst others here marking a simple comprehension.

I'm not jealous of the teachers, I would find it mind-numbing work, and time off is necessary for both teacher and student, it's the likes of the superintendent getting 86 rest days that I find wrong, and as you correctly pointed out, these multiple pensions.

What's wrong with my comprehension marking?!

I just think there are better ways to direct annoyance.

Gumbo · 18-07-2015 10:01pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see you amongst others here marking a simple comprehension.

I'm not jealous of the teachers, I would find it mind-numbing work, and time off is necessary for both teacher and student, it's the likes of the superintendent getting 86 rest days that I find wrong, and as you correctly pointed out, these multiple pensions.

Isint a rest day like a 2 day break from working following 4 twelve hour shifts or something.

They are not like annual leave where you can simply book 14 rest days and head off to Spain. I think you are purposefully misquoting the numbers.

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 10:02pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I said 4 weeks was the basic entitlement. Pretty much what you're saying here, bar the nurses. And damn closer that what you suggested below. I never commented on anyone earning 86 days.

.

You said they start on 4 weeks. That was the first red flag.

But drawing up a quick list from that article leads me to believe that anyone on 4 weeks holidays in the PS have got the short straw and a right to feel angry.
garda chiefs and superintendents are entitled to 52 days.
assistant commissioners, get 42 days off a year
hse workers 6 weeks
community welfare officer is entitled to up to 32 days off a year
A chief ambulance officer also gets 31 days off. A staff nurse is entitled to 24 days annual leave, rising to 27 with length of service.
several community welfare superintendents who have up to 40 days off a year.
Principal officers up to secretary general get 31 days a year

that's excluding rest days and the likes. Whoever said they get far too many days off in the PS won this case. Back on topic.
Case closed.

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 10:06pm

kceire wrote: »

Isint a rest day like a 2 day break from working following 4 twelve hour shifts or something.

They are not like annual leave where you can simply book 14 rest days and head off to Spain. I think you are purposefully misquoting the numbers.

I don't know, but I doubt it, as junior doctors etc would surely be entitled to more than garda officers who are getting 86. Our hospitals would be even more chaotic than they already are.

Geuze · 18-07-2015 10:32pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

I'm curious, what qualifications are required for primary school teachers? Do they only have bachelors or do they also have masters in childhood education?

Should salaries reflect this?

AFAIK, the allowances for extra quals were abolished for new entrants.

Gumbo · 18-07-2015 10:34pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't know, but I doubt it, as junior doctors etc would surely be entitled to more than garda officers who are getting 86. Our hospitals would be even more chaotic than they already are.

My mate works for a large MNC and he works 4 days on 3 days off in rotation. The days off are not annual leave, they are rest days. He works 7am -7pm and the 7pm-7am on the rotation shift.

So going by that he would have 150 odd rest days per year more actually as the weeks where he does the 3 days on 4 days off would give him extra rest days that week.

nice_guy80 · 18-07-2015 10:44pm

I think you'll find that despite the UK schools being open for longer, that Irish children do better in standardised scores against UK children (OECD Pisa ranking scores) UK - 20th, Ireland 15th.

So maybe the UK need to change their system to the Irish model - more contact teaching time with children and less time spent doing other stuff.
Or is that just being simplistic about it?

I'll admit that there is room for improvement on Ireland's scores, but considering our underfunded education system in terms of infrastructure. provision of educational resources to schools and ongoing teacher training I have to admit that the Irish education system does quite well
(yes, teacher's salaries here are good, but do we want less able graduates going into teaching, as happens in the UK)

aunt aggie · 18-07-2015 10:45pm

Well after not really paying attention since post one this has gotten off topic a bit and its also a ridiculously depressing read...

It's right to say that any economy spending too much is going to end up in a bad way. Saying teachers and other public servants don't pay taxes is just silly.

What make a small isolated economy like Ireland successful is an educated workforce that brings foreign multinationals and investment into the country. Our entire education system is geared towards producing broadly educated students. A Level students take on average 4 exams, and one of those is sometimes a filler subject, while the majority of Leaving Certs take at least 7 exams.

Many recent changes to syllabuses have been in response to the demands of industry and higher education. Project Maths been the best example, and as a Maths teacher I can tell you that the new syllabus was implemented with very few new resources and patchy in-service training. Teachers as subject experts responded to the change by adapting their resources and strategies. But syllabus changes happen all the time. The proposed new JC will change the framework of the entire exam system. It can't be implemented properly without proper training.

I was disgusted that someone on this forum, felt the need to call teachers leechces. My students have gone onto apprenticeships, PLCs and degrees in science, IT, engineering, ag science and I honestly don't know what else. They are my contribution to the economic recovery. You're very welcome.

purplecow1977 · 18-07-2015 10:47pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think you'll find that despite the UK schools being open for longer, that Irish children do better in standardised scores against UK children (OECD Pisa ranking scores) UK - 20th, Ireland 15th.

So maybe the UK need to change their system to the Irish model - more contact teaching time with children and less time spent doing other stuff.
Or is that just being simplistic about it?

It's also important to note that I think UK primary schools only work an extra 12 days. I must admit I always thought it was a good bit longer, but 12 days. And I like to think we produce a similar, if not higher, standard of students in Ireland.

We were once known as the island of Saints and Scholars. I don't think we should forget that.

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 10:48pm

kceire wrote: »

My mate works for a large MNC and he works 4 days on 3 days off in rotation. The days off are not annual leave, they are rest days. He works 7am -7pm and the 7pm-7am on the rotation shift.

So going by that he would have 150 odd rest days per year more actually as the weeks where he does the 3 days on 4 days off would give him extra rest days that week.

That sounds like a similar situation to a nurse. No one would begrudge them their days off. Not sure if that's what was in the article or not.

Rightwing · 18-07-2015 10:51pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think you'll find that despite the UK schools being open for longer, that Irish children do better in standardised scores against UK children (OECD Pisa ranking scores) UK - 20th, Ireland 15th.

So maybe the UK need to change their system to the Irish model - more contact teaching time with children and less time spent doing other stuff.
Or is that just being simplistic about it?

I'll admit that there is room for improvement on Ireland's scores, but considering our underfunded education system in terms of infrastructure. provision of educational resources to schools and ongoing teacher training I have to admit that the Irish education system does quite well
(yes, teacher's salaries here are good, but do we want less able graduates going into teaching, as happens in the UK)

We should be comparing ourselves to places like Norway/Denmark/NZ/Aus.

UK have a host of problems i.e. large urban centres full of emigrants and what not. We are going that way so I'd expect our standard to fall.

Jjiipp79 · 18-07-2015 10:52pm

Teachers should be paid the same holidays as the rest of the working people. And for the rest of the time they are not teaching they should be made do summer school or camps.

Id love this to be shaken up. So many in it just for the life style..

Or take the English school year and being it in here.

aunt aggie · 18-07-2015 10:52pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think you'll find that despite the UK schools being open for longer, that Irish children do better in standardised scores against UK children (OECD Pisa ranking scores) UK - 20th, Ireland 15th.

So maybe the UK need to change their system to the Irish model - more contact teaching time with children and less time spent doing other stuff.
Or is that just being simplistic about it?

Actually Ireland is moving towards the old English model, with introduction of more continuous assessment and short modules.

England deciding this isn't working has removed a lot of continuous assessment from core subjects. They have now decided to move towards the Singapore and Chinese model of teaching - which no one understands or thinks will ever work in English schools. But the Minister of Education thinks its a great idea and funds were made available last year..

We're as bad as each other really, but our kids score higher in maths and literacy. Numbers have dropped in recent years slightly but that's probably due to changes in primary school curriculum ten years ago.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2015 10:53pm

Rightwing wrote: »

You said they start on 4 weeks.

True, but this is all I said.

Teachers pull yet another stroke

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