Teachers pull yet another stroke

purplecow1977

Would the begrudgers not be better off targeting their annoyance at politicians who can claim five pensions???! FIVE PENSIONS?!?!?!

Rightwing

gaiscioch wrote: »

In fairness in terms of "hitting the taxpayer hard" I doubt any non-public servant has the words "PRD" on their payslip, an extra tax (no matter what idiot Kenny tries to claim) which takes up to 10.5% of all public servants' income each week.

He had no choice on the matter, they are your employer. Just like if our bank has a poor year, bonuses will suffer. I can't complain about that if punters say in the IT industry get bonuses if they have a profitable year.

Red Kev

Sleepy wrote: »

If you look at it that way we're vastly over-paying our teachers.

Take the entry position on the post 2011 scale of €27,814 and divide it by 167 to get a daily rate of pay of €166.55.

Multiply that by a regular FTE (260 working days - 20 days annual leave - 9 days public holidays) of 239 and you'll find we're paying Irish teachers in their first year of employment an Full Time Equivalent Salary of €39,805.66 per annum.

I think our teachers can manage to work a few more days a year at their existing pay levels tbh. No graduate fresh out of college is worth an FTE of almost €40k.

260-20-9=231 , not 239. ;-)

Somebody might need some grinds in basic Maths.

purplecow1977

I always enjoy reading this (figures would have to be adjusted for Ireland but you get the idea!)

ARE YOU SICK OF HIGHLY-PAID TEACHERS? IF YES, READ ON!

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work nine or ten months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do -- babysit! We can get that for less than minimum wage!!!!

That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and planning -- that equals 6-1/2 hours).
So each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET'S SEE....

That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6-1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher's salary (nationwide) is $50,000.

$50,000/180 days = $277.77 per day / 30 students = $9.25 / 6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student -- a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!)

WHAT A DEAL!!!!

purplecow1977

Red Kev wrote: »

260-20-9=231 , not 239. ;-)

Somebody might need some grinds in basic Maths.

I'm free for the summer if you want to PM me - reasonable rates!

Kermit.de.frog

Sack them all. Rehire on zero hour contract. Solved.

zeffabelli

I'm curious, what qualifications are required for primary school teachers? Do they only have bachelors or do they also have masters in childhood education?

Should salaries reflect this?

purplecow1977

zeffabelli wrote: »

I'm curious, what qualifications are required for primary school teachers? Do they only have bachelors or do they also have masters in childhood education?

Should salaries reflect this?

A standard B.Ed is sufficient although with the high competition of latter years & the scramble for jobs, or hours, many will have completed a Masters. However, completing a Masters when you've no source of employment is a tricky one and not something I would consider myself. I find after several years teaching, it is only recent years I've got a proper handle on a 'balanced' lifestyle and probably only now when I would consider a masters. I'm not sure it would have any personal benefit for me though.

There was talk about making a masters a requirement, and in the US I think this may be the case, but I can't say I'd support it here without sufficient persuasion.

Kermit.de.frog

purplecow1977 wrote: »

This would not solve anything

As an actually productive taxpayer in the economy who gives rather then takes (as in the case of teachers) I think it would solves things very quickly.

PolaroidPizza

My tow cents for what they're worth,

People are quick to criticise teachers based on their high exposure to them. they feel like they understand their workload/pay balance more then the majority of other professions.
If your average citizen was exposed for 12 years ~6 hours a day to the workload of a librarian or a county council clerk, then doubtless we would hear a hell of a lot of criticism of their conditions also.
During my time in school I experienced several very poor teachers who hated their job and had a very detrimental effect on their students, but poor workers exist in every profession....you just wouldn't hear about them as much.

to all those people attacking teachers here, you need to put these criticisms in the context of the entire public service. They are at the front-line, so extrapolate out your criticism to the public service in general.

purplecow1977

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

My tow cents for what they're worth,

People are quick to criticise teachers based on their high exposure to them. they feel like they understand their workload/pay balance more then the majority of other professions.
If your average citizen was exposed for 12 years ~6 hours a day to the workload of a librarian or a county council clerk, then doubtless we would hear a hell of a lot of criticism of their conditions also.
During my time in school I experienced several very poor teachers who hated their job and had a very detrimental effect on their students, but poor workers exist in every profession....you just wouldn't hear about them as much.

to all those people attacking teachers here, you need to put these criticisms in the context of the entire public service. They are at the front-line, so extrapolate out your criticism to the public service in general.

This plays a major part. Because people spent 8 years in primary, and 5/6 in secondary, they figure they are experts!

It's very easy to speculate on the outside looking in!

Kermit.de.frog

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Teachers pay tax too! Don't ya know

They are not net contributors. The tax they pay is from the tax taken from private sector employees. Ergo they contribute nothing.


The solution is very simple. Let them go on strike - see how they get on for two weeks with no money - then rehire on zero hour contracts (a contract that also includes automatic dismissal for being incompetent or not of a certain standard). This is coming anyway so best to do it now and get it over with so teachers can get use to their new earned standard of living.

Alex Meier

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They are not net contributors. The tax they pay is from the tax taken from private sector employees. Ergo they contribute nothing.

You don't really how the taxation system works do you. . . Ah Bless.

If you're claiming this then the corollary is that the net wage of a teacher is their actual wage. . . which would make my salary (a teacher of many many years experience) about 30K

Do you therefore believe that Irish teachers are poorly paid?

purplecow1977

Alex Meier wrote: »

You don't really how the taxation system works do you. . . Ah Bless.

If you're claiming this then the corollary to this is that the net wage of a teacher is their actual wage. . . which would make my salary (a teacher of many many years experience) about 30K

Do you therefore believe that Irish teachers are poorly paid?

Also, if the tax I contribute is 'nothing' can I keep it instead then? It would bulk my wages up a fair whack!!

NorthStars

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Teachers need to be retrained for a new syllabus.
when can they do this if not on 'release days'?

During some of their extended and well paid holiday leave?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Don't see the issue here. New system is introduced so people need to be trained. Same in any private sector industry.

purplecow1977

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Don't see the issue here. New system is introduced so people need to be trained. Same in any private sector industry.

I agree.

If something is given a fairly major overhaul it is necessary that correct training is given.

New things, strategies, ideas are constantly introduced and teachers must update and inform themselves in these areas. But for something as important as this, I think inservice is necessary.

Kermit.de.frog

Alex Meier wrote: »

If you're claiming this then the corollary to this is that the net wage of a teacher is their actual wage. . . which would make my salary (a teacher of many many years experience) about 30K

Your wage comes entirely from taxes paid by the wealth creating private sector. Otherwise you would have no money. So your argument is nonsense as it always has been. The usual rubbish. "What about the tax we pay"?

Teachers, like all public servants, are and always have been leeches upon those that generate the money to keep the country going. And it is time for some discipline to be put in place to prevent what I consider as the theft of taxpayer money that puts this country at risk because it damages the competitiveness of the country when public servants are vastly overpaid.

This was a fundamental part of the crisis. Forget the banks and that nonsense. This country was priced out of the market by an overpaid, bloated public sector. We can't go back to that world so things have to happen and decisions have to be taken about how we fund public services.

The logical conclusion to prevent crisis and make productive work pay is to cut teachers in the first place (because we have too many) - hire on zero hour contracts (everyone, not just new entrants) and open the sector more to private capital. This would enforce discipline and save taxpayer's money.

Like I said this process has thankfully started. These reforms are needed and are coming regardless but I think it should go faster because right now it is not acceptable the amount of money wasted on public services (not only teachers).

Mod: Banned for leeches abd other poor quality posts.

purplecow1977

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Your wage comes entirely from taxes paid by the wealth creating private sector. .

Serious question: Where does the 'wealth creating private sector' get their 'wealth' from????

coolbeans

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As an actually productive taxpayer in the economy who gives rather then takes (as in the case of teachers) I think it would solves things very quickly.

Go on then what do you do that makes you such an invaluable member of society? If you're going to characterise a whole sector of society in the way you have I think it's only fair that you tell us what you do. I'm not a teacher by the way nor do I work in the public sector.

Kermit.de.frog

coolbeans wrote: »

Go on then what do you do that makes you such an invaluable member of society? If you're going to characterise a whole sector of society in the way you have I think it's only fair that you tell us what you do. I'm not a teacher by the way nor do I work in the public sector.

I don't have to do that. The people that pay me are the only people that need to know what I do. I pay teachers, like every other private taxpayer, and thus i'm fully entitled to know who is a teacher. They are not employees of the government, they are employees of private sector taxpayers.


Privatisation, competition and efficiency is what is needed. It's happening already but the best way to drive efficiency and discipline is through wages thus they should all be sacked and rehired on zero hour contracts.

coolbeans

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I don't have to do that. The people that pay me are the only people that need to know what I do. I pay teachers, like every other private taxpayer, and thus i'm fully entitled to know who is a teacher. They are not employees of the government, they are employees of private sector taxpayers.

Cop out. You basically state that all teacher are takers taking the money you and I earn in taxes. That's an incredibly simplistic attitude and downright insulting. I wanna know what you do because I think you're a hypocrite and your contribution to society is likely to be way overstated by yourself.

And btw, to state that the private sector creates the wealth while the public sector spends it is a gross simplification and shows that you are very biased and incapable of appreciating nuance.

For example, if a teacher does a good job and is the difference between keeping a promising kid on the straight and narrow in the absence of decent parenting how can you say that the teacher has created no wealth? The kid grows up, gets a job and contributes whereas without that teacher's intervention he'd be in jail. It's very hypothetical I know but the teacher has created wealth by guiding the kid and keeping him out of the social welfare net.

Yet you come on here and have the gall to say that all teachers are takers. Bloody cheek you have.

Kermit.de.frog

coolbeans wrote: »

That's an incredibly simplistic attitude and downright insulting.

Simplistic and true - end of story.

Kermit.de.frog

coolbeans wrote: »

Yet you come on here and have the gall to say that all teachers are takers.

They are.

coolbeans

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They are.

So bitter, mean spirited and blinded by jealousy you are. I'll show my sister (a teacher) who just got her first full-time job in an educate together place five years after qualifying.
She'll get a laugh when she sees your extremist views on how she is stealing from you. One more question though, what's the bigger part of you, the giver or the judge?

femur61

gaiscioch wrote: »

From that article:

"According to OECD figures, Irish second-level teachers spend 735 hours teaching every year, which is above the average of 709. Despite the perception of short hours, Irish primary teachers spend 915 hours at the chalkface, compared to an OECD average of 790 hours."

So, the long and the short of this seems to be jealously of teachers' holidays, and nothing more.

No, I am not jealous of the long holidays (BTW the UK broke up yesterday for their summer recess). But, I think it is unadulterated greed that people who are paid full time only work part time and then expect to get pay for learning how to do improve their job.

I am from a family of 8 most of us work in the PS, no teachers though, and everyone of us think teachers are overpaid and over talked.

All of us get 4 weeks holidays, can't retire until we are 66 -66. We all work a 39 hour week and we don't do complain, don't threaten strike every chance we get, we get on with it and are grateful what we got. Job for life, good pension and a lump sum. Thats why we joined for these benefits.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

subpar wrote: »

After months of tabling objections to the reform of the Junior Cert and teacher union reps claiming that their objections were all educational based and had nothing to do with money, the real price of their co operation is beginning to emerge.

It emerged today that secondary school teachers will receive between 12 and 13 days training in the next year in order to bring in the changes.

The cost of this " training" is massive. On current estimates there are approx 25,000 second level teachers , assume they each go on 12 days out of classroom training and are backfilled by substitute teachers at a cost of 200 euro per day--- then the cost to the taxpayer is 60 Million Euro

This is not only a financial scandal but yet another example of the" pay for change" attitude which is rife throughout the public service.

Compare this with what goes on in the private sector

---

do office workers get training to work a new software package on their pc ? no they are expected to learn on the job. Do bus drivers receive training to drive a new bus ? no because as professional bus drivers they are rightly expected to adapt to new equipment and changes in their working environment.

Shame on the teachers for exacting a toll on the Dept of Education for the introduction of long overdue reforms and shame on the Dept for caving in to their demands -- another 60 million hit on the exchequer .

You want teachers to learn how to implement a new syllabus while teaching kids? How in the sweet **** are kids supposed to benefti from that??

Do some research before you go on a rant in future. And by research, I mean actually reading beyond the word "teachers" in a news story before logging on to boards.

Alex Meier

femur61 wrote: »

No, I am not jealous of the long holidays (BTW the UK broke up yesterday for their summer recess). But, I think it is unadulterated greed that people who are paid full time only work part time and then expect to get pay for learning how to do improve their job.

They're not getting pay for "learning" how to do their job. Their getting time away from classes to attend conferences to implement syllabus changes that the Department of Education & Skills want to implement.

Teachers in Ireland also work the longest classroom contact hours among OECD countries.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They are.

Ah yes, another one who stoppe reading at the word "teachers". Perhaps you'd like to elaborte on this statement? And by 'this statement', I mean the one quoted, not the one where you claimed to be more important thant other people wimply becaue you pay taxes.

(You do know teachers also pay taxes, right?)

femur61 wrote: »

I hope your not a teacher as you don't appear to have read the question properally.

The OP is stating other sectors don't get paid for training days. Workers view them as part of advancement in their position, furthering their career.

Why can't they train in one of their blocks of holidays, 2 weeks Christmas, or two one week mid term breaks, two weeks of at Easter or their three months long summer break. Emm. I suppose it would be really hard to find 12 days in their 16 week holidays they get every year. Or, even in their 22 hours week would be really hard to find forfeit a few extra hours.

Don't tell me you seriously think teachers only do 22 hours a week...?

Also, you can't train a teacher to handle a new syallabus while a teacher is simultaneoulsy teaching a class of students. When I worked in private second and had to do training, it was either during work hours or I got paid for it. Had the suggested I go on on Saturday for free, there would have been words had. I never signed an employment contract that catered for this.

Rightwing

femur61 wrote: »

No, I am not jealous of the long holidays (BTW the UK broke up yesterday for their summer recess). But, I think it is unadulterated greed that people who are paid full time only work part time and then expect to get pay for learning how to do improve their job.

I am from a family of 8 most of us work in the PS, no teachers though, and everyone of us think teachers are overpaid and over talked.

All of us get 4 weeks holidays, can't retire until we are 66 -66. We all work a 39 hour week and we don't do complain, don't threaten strike every chance we get, we get on with it and are grateful what we got. Job for life, good pension and a lump sum. Thats why we joined for these benefits.

Ye must be the working in lowest of the low sector, janitors or something like that?. 4 weeks holiday must surely be unheard of in the PS.