Is the media making Merkel a villain? Is she one?

17-07-2015 09:47AM

Birneybau wrote: »

Angela Merkel arrives in Athens
airport.
"Nationality?" asks the
immigration officer.
"German," she replies.
"Occupation?"
"No, just here for a few days."

I knew I heard this joke somewhere before

https://i.imgur.com/9PHuAZ8.png

strelok · 17-07-2015 09:48AM

that joke is just slightly younger than world war 2

17-07-2015 11:22AM

strelok wrote: »

that joke is just slightly younger than world war 2

And this is why I usually avoid after hours

KomradeBishop · 17-07-2015 12:03PM

dissed doc wrote: »

Europe needs a crisis as a union that is resolved without reverting to war, but instead with diplomacy. This is not the first time Greece has defaulted, it has done so about 500 times in the last century. This time, the plan to prevent it happening again and becoming a military dictaorship or "Defecting" under the Asia Minor or Russian sphere.

It has nothing to do with the Euro. What has happened, has happened over and over in Greece for decades.

"It is all the fault of Brussels" is easy to grasp and reductionist, so not a suprise that Anglophone media would focus on it. Plenty of countries both within the EU and in or outside the Euro are doing just fine. The presence of Euro has simply forced the weaker countries to get their sh1t together, like Ireland, which did (although by retaining as much of a welfare state as possible, thus hammering home grown businesses and middle class, which has its own consequences, but that is how FG FF and the political class decided it should be).

By reform you really mean lose fiscal policies. It would be a step backwards and whoever is the big dog calls the shots. America is world police with regard to the Army and wars, Germany is Europe Police with regard to debt and finances. No bad thing.

Not a single one of the key political figures believes the current 'bailout' will work - and even the EU president is worried about the political repercussions of recent events, and how they foster an atmosphere that could lead to the unravelling of the EU.

"It is the fault of Greece" is the reductionist/simplistic viewpoint - which completely ignores the economic conditions the Euro creates for countries; try looking at the economics, instead of making simplistic handwavy/reductionist political arguments - if you don't know what is and is not possible economically here, you don't have the information needed to judge the political decisions.

It is well known by now, that without something like a fiscal union, the Euro is pretty much going to cause the same problems again and again - and fiscal union will never happen in our lifetimes by the looks of it.

KomradeBishop · 17-07-2015 12:09PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't think this deal will benefit Germany in the long term because I don't think Greece can ever pay their debts.

What will happen is that the EU/IMF/GERMANY/WHOEVER will throw good money after bad by giving Greece another bailout. They will wind up losing even more money than they are presently in the hole for because it's pretty much impossible for Greece to trade their way out of their debt.

Yes while the structure of the Euro benefits Germany up to now, Germany depends on other Euro countries for its export base, and so Germany's position against reform of the Euro is self defeating in the long run, as it's going to eventually pull down economically, countries that are their export base, and so eventually Germany too.

The Germans will likely push this to the point of a Euro breakup, by the looks of things, as in recent weeks the idea of Germany accepting any reform towards fiscal union, just dipped very far towards zero.

17-07-2015 12:38PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Libertarians maybe. Certainly not Liberals.

No, liberals I'm afraid. I have plenty of liberal friends at home (of the PD variety) who admire Merkel's supposedly sensible economic policies, and the women among them like the fact that Merkel makes her gender irrelevant. None of them would agree with her conservative social views on immigration or gay marriage, or the party's tinkering with abortion rights, but they sort of overlook all that in a way they would never overlook an Irish politician for doing it.

But Merkel is so significant in European politics, especially after Germany's recent assertion of its power in Greece, that we can no longer afford to ignore the social and economic views of the Chancellor.

dissed doc wrote: »

The presence of Euro has simply forced the weaker countries to get their sh1t together, like Ireland, which did (although by retaining as much of a welfare state as possible, thus hammering home grown businesses and middle class, which has its own consequences, but that is how FG FF and the political class decided it should be).

This is a totally different issue, but the ESRI have shown that the groups hardest hit by fiscal consolidation have been the richest and the poorest. Like in most countries in the world, the middle class have been hit to an extent. But to claim that the middle classes are disproportionately suffering in Ireland is as much a myth as it is elsewhere.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/squeezed-middle-not-hit-as-hard-as-top-and-bottom-earners-in-budgets-esri-654320.html

Son Of A Vidic · 17-07-2015 01:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

strelok wrote: »

that joke is just slightly younger than world war 2

And this is why I usually avoid after hours

It has been a privilege and an honour, for you to grace us with your presence.

bnt · 17-07-2015 01:18PM

If the media's trying to make a villain of Merkel, they aren't doing a very good job of it. When you look at how much Greece owes to Germany - the government and the banks - you can hardly blame her for being a bit verärgert.

17-07-2015 01:37PM

bnt wrote: »

When you look at how much Greece owes to Germany - the government and the banks - you can hardly blame her for being a bit verärgert.

Altruists do not trade in junk bonds. All investors in Greek debt stand to make a profit, even if the IMF's debt relief proposal is approved. Merkel has been telling the Bundestag today that what she has done is as much for Germany's benefit as it is for Greece; lets not beatify her just yet.

SEPT 23 1989 · 17-07-2015 01:41PM

bnt wrote: »

If the media's trying to make a villain of Merkel, they aren't doing a very good job of it. When you look at how much Greece owes to Germany - the government and the banks - you can hardly blame her for being a bit verärgert.

If only we could forgive some of the debt like we did with another country who consistently made sh1te of the continent in the first half of the last century

TomBtheGoat · 17-07-2015 01:46PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Is the media making Merkel a villain? Is she one?

Is she a villain? No.

Is she our Führer? Yes.

KomradeBishop · 17-07-2015 01:55PM

If Germany is so concerned about Greece paying back their debt, then why did they just force on Greece, a plan which guarantees it is impossible to pay back?

Holding people/countries in a position of unsustainable debt, forever, is one of the most historically successful ways of achieving near-complete control over a person/country - mainly because people in general are stupid enough, to believe 'debtor vs creditor' moralizing, even when that moralizing means making demands that are impossible in reality.

On a personal level, this was used to achieve 'ownership' (i.e. debt-bondage/slavery) over people in the past, and on a national level, it's used to end democracy (with creditors being in control instead) and turn a country into a vassal/'ward'.

We're not even close to getting out of the economic crisis yet, and when the next crash hits, that may be our future as well - so people should be taking very close note of what is going on with Greece.

blinding · 17-07-2015 01:58PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

Is she a villain? No.

Is she our Führer? Yes.

I believe that Fuhrer actually means "Guide"

She certainly guides our lickspittle establishment to pimp the Irish People.

bnt · 17-07-2015 02:00PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Altruists do not trade in junk bonds. All investors in Greek debt stand to make a profit, even if the IMF's debt relief proposal is approved. Merkel has been telling the Bundestag today that what she has done is as much for Germany's benefit as it is for Greece; lets not beatify her just yet.

Leave out all the investors - in junk bonds or whatever - and we're still talking about over €40 billion of German government funds that have been sunk in to Greece via the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF). France, Italy, & others are also on the hook. No private investors are involved in those loans, so if you think Merkel's just annoyed on behalf of bankers, you've overlooked how much State money has been sunk in to Greece already.

I'm hardly a fan of Merkel's, or of other EU politicians, but that doesn't mean I don't understand a bit. This isn't a Love/Hate situation.

SeanW · 17-07-2015 02:10PM

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I think you're the one who's had too much cider tonight.

She's effectively become Europe's leader through no fault of her own; Cameron is afraid to be seen in Brussels because a large portion of his party hate seeing Britain in the EU, and Hollande and France's economy is not strong enough to lead. The shinners love to portray her as a bully who's hellbent on controlling Europe when she's anything but.

The Euro crisis has been a disaster for Germany and Merkel; they've lost a heap of money pumping bailouts into Greece which they may never earn back, confidence in the european economy is at rock bottom, and Merkel faces destroying her otherwise great leadership by continuing to give even more money to the clowns from Athens.

Oh the poor Germans. They were complaining so loudly during the good times when the Greeks were buying all those German cars and the military was buying all that German military hardware ... Indeed Greece's inability to devalue its currency prevented Greek exports from becoming more attractive or imports to Greece becoming more expensive, so Germany is STILL benefitting ...

Yeah, the Germans complained very loudly about that. So loud that nobody heard them.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If Germany is so concerned about Greece paying back their debt, then why did they just force on Greece, a plan which guarantees it is impossible to pay back?

Not often I agree with the Komrade about ... anything. But Greece is a basket case. You can't get blood from a stone, and that seems to be what the Germans are trying to do. Crazy, considering last time Germans were held to crippling debts it ended very badly, after which they were given substantial debt write-offs.

Leave out all the investors - in junk bonds or whatever - and we're still talking about over €40 billion of German government funds that have been sunk in to Greece

That money was to protect private banks and investment houses that stupidly lent money to Greece.
1) That money was never for the Greek people.
2) It should never have been lent in the first place.

17-07-2015 02:13PM

bnt wrote: »

Leave out all the investors - in junk bonds or whatever - and we're still talking about over €40 billion of German government funds that have been sunk in to Greece via the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF). France, Italy, & others are also on the hook. No private investors are involved in those loans

Yes they are. It is private investors who buy EFSF bonds, and thus supply the EFSF, and the ESM, with lending resources.

The EFSF is a temporary agency, the member state's capital is due to be returned to them (with profits). If the ESM buys its debt, as advocates of Greek debt relief are suggesting, then the member states will be paid in full even faster than expected.

The ESM is a permanent agency. The money that has been put in is permanent, but it is not there for on-lending. It is the capital required so that the ESM can tap the capital markets for money which it lends to Greece.

It is private investors who are funding the loans supplied by the EFSF and the ESM.

TomBtheGoat · 17-07-2015 02:21PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If only we could forgive some of the debt like we did with another country who consistently made sh1te of the continent in the first half of the last century

Amen to that.

Tony EH · 18-07-2015 12:41AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, liberals I'm afraid. I have plenty of liberal friends at home (of the PD variety)

The PDs were Conservative. The were "liberal" only to free markets in the same way that Libertarians are.

My idea of a liberal minded person would be the old classical left wing style rather than the newer "Libertarian" or "Neo-Liberal".

18-07-2015 12:47AM

Tony EH wrote: »

The PDs were Conservative. The were "liberal" only to free markets in the same way that Libertarians are.

Well I am not putting-forward the PDs as the ultimate embodiment of liberalism, but liberalism untimately revolves around the 'no harm' principle, which basically allows economic actors and private individuals to do as they want to do, so long as they do no harm.

My idea of a liberal minded person would be the old classical left wing style rather than the newer "Libertarian" or "Neo-Liberal".

Honestly this makes no sense to me. A liberal is a person who emphasizes the need for a minimal constraint in their activities, economically or socially, full stop.

MightyMandarin · 20-07-2015 12:52AM

SeanW wrote: »

Oh the poor Germans. They were complaining so loudly during the good times when the Greeks were buying all those German cars and the military was buying all that German military hardware ... Indeed Greece's inability to devalue its currency prevented Greek exports from becoming more attractive or imports to Greece becoming more expensive, so Germany is STILL benefitting ...

How is Germany still benefiting if the Greeks can no longer afford to buy as much of their stuff? Germany wants/needs strong neighbours because they have an export-led economy; Greece suffering is bad for business.

Currency devaluation has nothing to do with German domination. The Greeks took it as part of joining the Eurozone so they got what they bargained for. The fact Greece imports far too many goods is down to their incompetency as a country to rid itself of corruption and get their act together. Ireland didn't have the chance to devalue its currency yet we still managed to increase our exports to record highs.

Ave Sodalis · 20-07-2015 01:12AM

Some people applaud her for what she has done to Greece. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted at it. Looking past the numbers and figure, and looking towards the population and what she's done to the people of Greece by what she's forced their government into... nobody has the right to do that. Money is not worth the suffering those people are going through. But that's what the world has come to. Who cares if people's lives are being torn apart, as long as the imaginary numbers balance themselves, right? No, f*ck that. If she did the same to us, we would not be applauding her. No-one should have the right to cause that much suffering and it's horrid that people are not only sitting back and letting it happen, but encouraging it... there's something wrong with the world. Christ, if anything would make you want to be a hermit and go hide from society until it's destroyed itself, it's the attitude people have regarding money...

MightyMandarin · 20-07-2015 01:31AM

sup_dude wrote: »

Some people applaud her for what she has done to Greece. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted at it. Looking past the numbers and figure, and looking towards the population and what she's done to the people of Greece by what she's forced their government into... nobody has the right to do that. Money is not worth the suffering those people are going through. But that's what the world has come to. Who cares if people's lives are being torn apart, as long as the imaginary numbers balance themselves, right? No, f*ck that. If she did the same to us, we would not be applauding her. No-one should have the right to cause that much suffering and it's horrid that people are not only sitting back and letting it happen, but encouraging it... there's something wrong with the world. Christ, if anything would make you want to be a hermit and go hide from society until it's destroyed itself, it's the attitude people have regarding money...

Yeah.. I don't think the 80m Germans, and millions of other European taxpayers would call their hard earned money 'imaginary'.

And what about the poor people of Latvia and Lithuania, who are forced to pay out of their (very small) wallets for the Greeks again? They earn less than the average Greeks do, and their country is far poorer than Greece is. Do they deserve to be forced to give free money to Greece just because the Greeks partied too hard and then wouldn't pay the bill?

I think you need to stop listening to the sob stories Syriza, SF and Paul Murphy like to blab on about and maybe learn what the real truth is.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 02:07AM

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Yeah.. I don't think the 80m Germans, and millions of other European taxpayers would call their hard earned money 'imaginary'.

And what about the poor people of Latvia and Lithuania, who are forced to pay out of their (very small) wallets for the Greeks again? They earn less than the average Greeks do, and their country is far poorer than Greece is. Do they deserve to be forced to give free money to Greece just because the Greeks partied too hard and then wouldn't pay the bill?

I think you need to stop listening to the sob stories Syriza, SF and Paul Murphy like to blab on about and maybe learn what the real truth is.

It's a moral question of whether an entire country should pay hugely for reckless governments. That question has come up before in European history.

Tony EH · 20-07-2015 11:34AM

...and previous governments of Greece have been reckless in the extreme, borrowing and borrowing and simply not giving a damn, because their members are largely of a class that wouldn't affected too badly if a crash did happen.

It brings into question why lenders kept lending to a country that was run by such people, when they clearly knew it was run by such people.

It's akin to giving a smackhead his gear and wondering why he's still a junkie.

Personally, I think when it was disclosed that New Democracy and Goldman Sachs lied to get into the Eurozone in the first place, all bets should have been off.

The present situation makes the EU look like it's a usury enterprise.

SeanW · 20-07-2015 11:38AM

The Euro is a large part of this: the Drachma had interest rates of 17-21%. Not optimal, to be sure, but it did act as an essential safeguard, an application of the brakes in a dangerous situation, so to speak. Under Keynesian theory, that's the whole point of having fiat currency - so that money isn't lent foolishly, but the flexibility is there to reduce interest rates in cases of extreme need. Put simply, while Greece may always have been badly run, it always had an appropriate monetary policy until it joined the Euro. Like Ireland.

MightyMandarin · 20-07-2015 11:56AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's a moral question of whether an entire country should pay hugely for reckless governments. That question has come up before in European history.

Fair enough, but can you not empathise with the millions of others who've forked out billions of their own cash only for the Greeks to p*ss it away?

I have no sympathy for the people of Greece because they are the most incompetent bunch in the EU by far. A debt write off might make better economic sense, but as in a moral sense, why should I have to give them free money? That's the elephant in the room.

Buona Fortuna · 20-07-2015 12:14PM

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Fair enough, but can you not empathise with the millions of others who've forked out billions of their own cash only for the Greeks to p*ss it away?

I have no sympathy for the people of Greece because they are the most incompetent bunch in the EU by far. A debt write off might make better economic sense, but as in a moral sense, why should I have to give them free money? That's the elephant in the room.

A people are incompetent - really?

Maybe they have elected incompetent politicians, bureacrats or whatever, but I don't think "a people" possess the ability to be either competent or incompetent.

Maximus Alexander · 20-07-2015 12:27PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

She isnt the worst German leader ever

High praise indeed.

Maguined · 20-07-2015 12:47PM

sup_dude wrote: »

Some people applaud her for what she has done to Greece. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted at it. Looking past the numbers and figure, and looking towards the population and what she's done to the people of Greece by what she's forced their government into... nobody has the right to do that. Money is not worth the suffering those people are going through. But that's what the world has come to. Who cares if people's lives are being torn apart, as long as the imaginary numbers balance themselves, right? No, f*ck that. If she did the same to us, we would not be applauding her. No-one should have the right to cause that much suffering and it's horrid that people are not only sitting back and letting it happen, but encouraging it... there's something wrong with the world. Christ, if anything would make you want to be a hermit and go hide from society until it's destroyed itself, it's the attitude people have regarding money...

Instead of blaming the leader of a different country for the plight of the Greek people should you not be blaming the Greek government?

MightyMandarin · 20-07-2015 01:00PM

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

A people are incompetent - really?

Maybe they have elected incompetent politicians, bureacrats or whatever, but I don't think "a people" possess the ability to be either competent or incompetent.

Well they've consistently elected terrible people to office, their country is riddled with corruption, they have a poor work ethic in comparison to most other european countries and they've wasted a lot of borrowed money.

Is the media making Merkel a villain? Is she one?

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