Ukraine: As it happens.

TomBtheGoat · 19-06-2015 05:52PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I believe there is something about not stationing permanently more than 5,000?...I'm not sure.

Either way, 4,000-ish men, spread over 6 nations, doesn't make much difference.

And let's not get into Russia's broken promises vis-a-vis respecting Ukrainian sovereignty.

A broken promise remains a broken promise. Never mind the expansion of NATO eastwards to Russia's borders, which wasn't supposed to happen under the gentleman's agreement. The rise of fascist right wing extremists in Ukraine, would always inevitably provoke a reaction from a nation the lost almost 30 million fighting Nazism. Now if the shoe was on the other foot and this was occurring in Mexico. You could be sure uncle Sam would have long since invaded, exterminated the Mexican government and all vestiges of the Mexican state. Probably quite similar to the Iraq state dismantling model we all witnessed not to long ago.

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 05:57PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

the expansion of NATO eastwards to Russia's borders, which wasn't supposed to happen under the gentleman's agreement.

Do you have the text for this agreement?
Can't find it.

The rise of fascist right wing extremists in Ukraine, would always inevitably provoke a reaction.....

Confusing....
Russia (the Mecca & engine of Europes far-right) was rather okey-dokey with Ukrainian right wing governments up until one decided not to be a Kremlin vassal anymore.
Their 'reaction' was a 2 decades late!

You could be sure uncle Sam would have long since invaded, exterminated the Mexican government and all vestiges of the Mexican state.

Aah....the old: imagined hypothetical whataboutery in defence of tyranny & invasion gambit.
When regular whataboutery isnt quite silly enough.
That's quite remarkable!
Not seen since Eggy.

Gatling · 19-06-2015 06:03PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

A broken promise remains a broken promise. Never mind the expansion of NATO eastwards to Russia's borders, which wasn't supposed to happen under the gentleman's agreement. The rise of fascist right wing extremists in Ukraine, would always inevitably provoke a reaction from a nation the lost almost 30 million fighting Nazism. Now if the shoe was on the other foot and this was occurring in Mexico. You could be sure uncle Sam would have long since invaded, exterminated the Mexican government and all vestiges of the Mexican state. Probably quite similar to the Iraq state dismantling model we all witnessed not to long ago.

Who funds the majority of far right groups thoughout Europe ehhhh that would be the Kremlin.
10 points

Gringo180 · 19-06-2015 06:07PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

And yet, it's still a breach of a promise that the United States made to the Russians when the Cold War ended.

Not to mention the coup the U.S funded in Kiev to get rid of the democratically elected government just because he was pro Russian. Putin and Russia are no angels but I am sick to death of people painting them the bad guys and the Americans as the good guys. Could you imagine what would happen if the Russians were funding a coup in Canada or Mexico?

Gringo180 · 19-06-2015 06:10PM

Gatling wrote: »

5000 men .
A few M1 A1 abrams tanks
Strkyers
Heavy artillery.

Vs

Crimea 30,000 Russian troops
Thousands of tanks
Naval vessels
Attack helicopters
anti air
medium range missles

Accordingly to various sources
20,000 Russian troops in eastern Ukraine
Hundreds of tanks
armoured personall carriers
Heavy artillery
rockets
anti air
.
other sources 30-50,000 Russian troops on or near the Ukrainian border .

And they're getting upset about 5000 Americans scattered across several countries

The Russians are defending there borders and have every right to. Nato are moving far to close to Russian territory imo.

Gatling · 19-06-2015 06:11PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Not to mention the coup the U.S funded in Kiev to get rid of the democratically elected government just because he was pro Russian. Putin and Russia are no angels but I am sick to death of people painting them the bad guys and the Americans as the good guys. Could you imagine what would happen if the Russians were funding a coup in Canada or Mexico?

There was no coup.

Putin himself publicly stated that fact weeks ago

semionova · 19-06-2015 06:12PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

The Russians are defending there borders and have every right to. Nato are moving far to close to Russian territory imo.

Russia moved into Ukrainian territory.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 19-06-2015 06:13PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

The Russians are defending there borders and have every right to. Nato are moving far to close to Russian territory imo.

since when is russians being in eastern ukraine russian borders, got a grip
nato are doing the same as russia but difference is helping nato countries and nato borders also

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 06:14PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Nato are moving far to close to Russian territory imo.

That was 11 years ago.

Bit rich moaning about it now.

Gringo180 · 19-06-2015 06:18PM

So its ok for the Americans to annex Cuban territory and commit mass human rights atrocities on there soil?

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 06:22PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

So its ok for the Americans to annex Cuban territory and commit mass human rights atrocities on there soil?

Nope....

Whataboutery, the last resort of the shill.

It always fails.... The shill never understands that most of us oppose tyranny in any form.

Irish Praetorian · 19-06-2015 06:23PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Not to mention the coup the U.S funded in Kiev to get rid of the democratically elected government just because he was pro Russian. Putin and Russia are no angels but I am sick to death of people painting them the bad guys and the Americans as the good guys. Could you imagine what would happen if the Russians were funding a coup in Canada or Mexico?

I'm sorry, this is just a minor thing, kinda like the question of this 'agreement' between the US and Russia regarding NATO, but could would you have a small source for this claim? I mean just to spare us the back and forth of what we each 'reckon' is going on?

Gringo180 · 19-06-2015 06:25PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nope....

Whataboutery, the last resort of the shill.

It always fails.... The shill never understands that most of us oppose tyranny in any form.

Superb debating skills, I applaud you.

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 06:26PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Superb debating skills, I applaud you.

Defend tyrants & that's what ya get buddy.
Don't feel too sensitive about it.
Can't win em all.

semionova · 19-06-2015 06:26PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

So its ok for the Americans to annex Cuban territory and commit mass human rights atrocities on there soil?

Cuba is another story. And no it's not OK for the US to do this.

However Russia had a treaty with the Ukraine. The Budapest Memorandum.

Ukraine gave all it's nuclear weapons to Russia. In exchange Russia, the US and the UK reaffirmed "their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

Crimea was CLEARLY a part of this.

In 1997 there was the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation..which respects Ukraine's territorial integrity. Black Sea Fleet agreements.

Russia had many treaties to honor the sovereignty of Ukraine. If Crimea wanted to become independent they should have done that prior to Russian involvement and democratically (NOT FAKE VOTES ETC). And then and only then after it was separate considered joining Russia.

It was an invasion.

gandalf · 19-06-2015 06:44PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

A broken promise remains a broken promise. Never mind the expansion of NATO eastwards to Russia's borders, which wasn't supposed to happen under the gentleman's agreement.

You've heard the phrase a verbal agreement is worth the paper its written on. If it wasn't in a signed treaty then it was worthless.

On the other hand Russia has violated written agreements with the Ukraine and has invaded their territory.

The rise of fascist right wing extremists in Ukraine,

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions the so called fascists make up a very small percentage of the government in the Ukraine.

The funny thing is that Russia is a direct sponsor of a number of far right parties in quite a number of European countries, so I have a feeling they are selective with the Nazi's they like and the ones they don't.

would always inevitably provoke a reaction from a nation the lost almost 30 million fighting Nazism.

Well if they didn't make an agreement with the Nazi's in the first place carving up Poland those people may have survived.

Now if the shoe was on the other foot and this was occurring in Mexico. You could be sure uncle Sam would have long since invaded, exterminated the Mexican government and all vestiges of the Mexican state. Probably quite similar to the Iraq state dismantling model we all witnessed not to long ago.

Ah the old deflection technique that is always rolled out. Someone else has done bad therefore Russia should have a "free pass" arguement. :rolleyes:

Public_Enema · 19-06-2015 06:45PM

semionova wrote: »

It was an invasion.

Yet it really wasn't, when you measure it by what the Yanks did in Iraq or Afghanistan?

semionova · 19-06-2015 06:49PM

Public_Enema wrote: »

Yet it really wasn't, when you measure it by what the Yanks did in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Don't bring in other cases into this individual case. Yes they were invasions nothing to do with this case.

Russia has been destabilizing politics in the Ukraine for years. Other larger countries also do this all the world too. That is also separate from this particular case.

Bringing in other cases in an effort to negate the blame Russia carries is fallacious.

gandalf · 19-06-2015 06:51PM

Public_Enema wrote: »

Yet it really wasn't, when you measure it by what the Yanks did in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Again the old someone else did something bad, sure why can't Russia do the same arguement. If that's the best you can come up with you know yourself that the Russians actions are indefensible.

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 06:52PM

Public_Enema wrote: »

Yet it really wasn't,

Yet it really was.

Irish Praetorian · 19-06-2015 06:53PM

Public_Enema wrote: »

Yet it really wasn't, when you measure it by what the Yanks did in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Oh surprise surprise, another newly minted account that has a history of vapid comments at break neck speed (with the occasional right wing/pro Russia-China sound bite for good measure) that now for swans into a debate about Russian actions in Ukraine with the same kind of comment we've seen from Russian fanboys 100 times now.

I name thee, Egginacup 3.0

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 06:56PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Oh surprise surprise, another newly minted account that has a history of vapid comments at break neck speed (with the occasional right wing/pro Russia-China sound bite for good measure) that now for swans into a debate about Russian actions in Ukraine with the same kind of comment we've seen from Russian fanboys 100 times now.

Putinbots aren't born.
They're grown......

http://blog.luz.vc/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/the-matrix.gif

gandalf · 19-06-2015 07:01PM

It all leads back to Savushkina Street

Gringo180 · 19-06-2015 07:02PM

semionova wrote: »

Don't bring in other cases into this individual case. Yes they were invasions nothing to do with this case.
.

Yet the illegal American invasions dont get the same level of criticism that the Russians get, I wonder why that is? Over a million dead in Iraq? How many have died in the invasion of Crimea? Neither are right but at least the Russians don't go in and massacre thousands of civialians in the process.

gandalf · 19-06-2015 07:06PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Yet the illegal American invasions dont get the same level of criticism that the Russians get, I wonder why that is? Over a million dead in Iraq? How many have died in the invasion of Crimea? Neither are right but at least the Russians don't go in and massacre thousands of civialians in the process.

At least 6000 dead in the invasion of Eastern Ukraine so far......they wouldn't have died if the Russians hadn't sponsored the whole farce and then weighted in with their own forces. Then we have the MH17 flight and the 298 people on board which got shot down by a "phantom" BUK.

Irish Praetorian · 19-06-2015 07:06PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Yet the illegal American invasions dont get the same level of criticism that the Russians get, I wonder why that is? Over a million dead in Iraq? How many have died in the invasion of Crimea? Neither are right but at least the Russians don't go in and massacre thousands of civialians in the process.

A million dead in Iraq according to whom? Stopthewar.org? Most estimates put that actual figure at around a quarter of that.

More to the point, I don't recall the various anti-war movements pandering so pathetically to the US when the Iraq War was going on. Perhaps some of these movements might consider meekly excusing US actions the next time they try something like the Iraq War, because presumably that is now the standard to which they operate, having swallowed point blank the Russian POV that the Crimean invasion was a perfectly reasonable reaction to the 'Fascist Nazi Nazi Fascist Nazi Fascist Fascist Junta' in Kiev...

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 07:10PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Yet the illegal American invasions dont get the same level of criticism that the Russians get,

https://www.google.ie/search?q=anti%20iraq%20war%20protests&client=ms-android-google&espv=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ei=F2iEVc77PIL-7Abi2IOABA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=360&bih=519&dpr=3

Cmon buddy, raise your game.

semionova · 19-06-2015 07:12PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Yet the illegal American invasions dont get the same level of criticism that the Russians get, I wonder why that is?

You have got to be kidding. The Iraq and Afghan wars got HUGE protests in the media and on the streets.

semionova · 19-06-2015 07:12PM

Again though you are distracting the attention of the debate onto other cases. Your only argument seems to be digression.

BoJack Horseman · 19-06-2015 07:15PM

semionova wrote: »

Again though you are distracting the attention of the debate onto other cases. Your only argument seems to be digression.

You'd nearly think there was some sort of programming behind it.

Ukraine: As it happens.

Comments