8th Amendment

K-9 · 17-06-2015 10:05PM

am946745 wrote: »

Strange how our Maternal Mortality rate is lower than the UK.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=2223

Did ours take a big jump recently because of European standardized standards.

Put it this way, I don't think we have one of the safest maternity systems in the world anymore!

Delirium · 17-06-2015 10:13PM

conorh91 wrote: »

OK well there are nowhere near that many of consultant obstetricians and gynecologists in Ireland. I think there are actually less than 100 consultant obstetricians and gynecologists registered in Ireland, so it's no surprise they're not all Irish.

It is clear that a substantial number of Irish experts in obstetrics and gynecology are in agreement that abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

It isn't clear what the rest of them think because it is impossible to infer anything from their silence, but I don't see how such a substantial proportion of experts operating in Irish hospitals can be dismissed.

well considering that they term abortion as 'the purposeful destruction of the unborn', it is anything but clear. The 8th allows for abortion where there is a threat to the womans life. But the Dublin declaration would not agree that it is an abortion.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 10:17PM

PopePalpatine wrote:

Eoghan de Faoite organised it. :rolleyes:

So

I don't see where it says that, but it was chaired by the Professor of Obstetrics and Gynaecology in NUIG. Unless the Life Institute or some other nutcase religious group held them at ransom in a locked room and forced them to sign a document, I don't see how it has any bearing on their clinical judgment as experts and, in most cases, as Fellows of the Royal College of Obstetrics & Gynaecology.

It's clearly a reputable symposium, because the Royal College of Physicians awards its members 6 CME points (necessary ongoing training) for attending it.

Some seriously selective attitudes to evidence here. You'd probably be decrying detractors as being anti-science if the symposium had favored your personal opinion.

Delirium · 17-06-2015 10:21PM

FYI, conor, I didn't post what quoted me as posting. would appreciate if you correct the error.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 10:24PM

Apologies SW, the previous quote is now amended.

SW wrote: »

well considering that they term abortion as 'the purposeful destruction of the unborn', it is anything but clear.

I don't see anything unclear about it.

Surely it was obvious that a non-deliberate destruction of the unborn would refer to a situation such as the accidental death of the mother, say by accident or medical misadventure, and the subsequent loss of life of the unborn whose life is contingent upon his mother.

Delirium · 17-06-2015 10:33PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Apologies SW, the previous quote is now amended.

Cheers. Much obliged

I don't see anything unclear about it.

Surely it was obvious that a non-deliberate destruction of the unborn would refer to a situation such as the accidental death of the mother, say by accident or medical misadventure, and the subsequent loss of life of the unborn whose life is contingent upon his mother.

'Purposeful destruction of the unborn' would exclude abortions that are performed to save the life of the woman as permitted by the 8th amendment. The Dublin Declaration suggest there are no such abortions ever required to be carried out by doctors.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 10:53PM

SW wrote: »

'Purposeful destruction of the unborn' would exclude abortions that are performed to save the life of the woman as permitted by the 8th amendment. The Dublin Declaration suggest there are no such abortions ever required to be carried out by doctors.

Yes, that is exactly what it suggests. I think it's a shame that expert medical evidence of that nature was not made available to the Supreme Court in the X case.

There is no evidence of a mental health benefit to abortion. There just isn't.

It's hard to advance this point without seeming insensitive or cruel, but these are real women who are in serious risk because of their psychiatric state of mind we are talking about.

Unless one is of the opinion that suicide is a wise or rational response to a pregnancy, then one has to seriously consider the possibility that a woman who responds to pregnancy in that way is perhaps suffering from some underlying condition to which she is perhaps predisposed.

oscarBravo · 17-06-2015 10:57PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Unless one is of the opinion that suicide is a wise or rational response to a pregnancy, then one has to seriously consider the possibility that a woman who responds to pregnancy in that way is perhaps suffering from some underlying condition to which she is perhaps predisposed.

Hysteria, perhaps.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 11:03PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hysteria, perhaps.

No. I'd be grateful if you didn't caricature an opinion I am trying to advance sincerely.

oscarBravo · 17-06-2015 11:05PM

conorh91 wrote: »

No.

No? Well, I'm sure there's some other equally patronising reason that a man can explain to a woman as to why she's suicidal.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 11:09PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

No? Well, I'm sure there's some other equally patronising reason that a man can explain to a woman as to why she's suicidal.

Mental illness. It is acknowledged that individuals can be susceptible to mental illnesses which can be activated by traumatic events in their lives.

This is a serious issue and a small number of people, on both sides, are trying to discuss it like adults. You're trying to imply that I'm dismissing rape victims as hysterical. This is a sensitive topic. I'd like to talk to the adults without being caricatured in that way.

oscarBravo · 17-06-2015 11:23PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Mental illness. It is acknowledged that individuals can be susceptible to mental illnesses which can be activated by traumatic events in their lives.

This is a serious issue and a small number of people, on both sides, are trying to discuss it like adults. You're trying to imply that I'm dismissing rape victims as hysterical. This is a sensitive topic. I'd like to talk to the adults without being caricatured in that way.

If you don't want it to seem like you're dismissing rape victims as hysterical, perhaps you should think twice before suggesting that someone who's been raped, is pregnant and is being denied an abortion is irrational for contemplating suicide.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 11:29PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

perhaps you should think twice before suggesting that someone who's been raped, is pregnant and is being denied an abortion is irrational for contemplating suicide.

Perhaps you should read better.

I said one has to seriously consider that possibility.

I am uncomfortable with seeing suicide ideation as rational anytime it is observed. Especially in a situation where there is no evidence of a mental health benefit, and where a serious trauma has recently been experienced.

I don't discount it.

oscarBravo · 17-06-2015 11:32PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Perhaps you should read better.

I said one has to seriously consider that possibility.

That implies that it isn't considered.

I am uncomfortable with seeing suicide ideation as rational anytime it is observed. Especially in a situation where there is no evidence of a mental health benefit, and where a serious trauma has recently been experienced.

This echoes the rather bizarre tangent I've seen some pro-lifers go off on: the idea of abortion as a "treatment" for suicidal ideation. It's a complete fabrication on their part: nobody but them has ever suggested that it's any such thing.

The bottom line is that a woman shouldn't have to be at risk of death in order to make the choice not to be pregnant. We're talking about a much more fundamental question of personal bodily integrity than that.

pmasterson95 · 17-06-2015 11:44PM

The "pro life" should just be rebranded "pro baby" or something bat**** like that. Pro life implies they actually care about lives. But they really dont give a flying **** about the mothers life, if the mother is alive, dead, depressed, dying, raped, assaulted, forced, suicidal, take your pick.
They just believe that she should shut up and do her job and give the world a baby. Most "pro life" ****e and bleatings actually completely disregards the mothers life.

conorh91 · 17-06-2015 11:48PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

That implies that it isn't considered.

No it doesn't. I've no doubt that competent, well-respected professionals, just like those many medical experts mentioned in this thread, do consider the existence of an underlying mental illness when treating suicidal pregnant women.

However, there is scant evidence of that consideration in this thread, in my view.
Certain pro-choice posters are unwilling, or so I understand, to accept the absence of medical evidence showing that abortion reduces mental health risks. Some on the pro-choice side are willing to engage with that, to their credit.

You tried to characterize my position as being dismissive of rape victims as hysterical, and I find that particularly objectionable. Unlike the other pro-choice posters, who are making legitimate points, I don't see what you are adding to this debate except invective.

krankykitty · 18-06-2015 06:51AM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

The "pro life" should just be rebranded "pro baby" or something bat**** like that. Pro life implies they actually care about lives. But they really dont give a flying **** about the mothers life, if the mother is alive, dead, depressed, dying, raped, assaulted, forced, suicidal, take your pick.
They just believe that she should shut up and do her job and give the world a baby. Most "pro life" ****e and bleatings actually completely disregards the mothers life.

Its more accurate to say anti choice, I think. Everyone is pro life. The opposite to pro life is pro death. And in some cases, some "pro lifers" are actually not pro life of the mother.

pmasterson95 · 18-06-2015 08:45AM

krankykitty wrote: »

Its more accurate to say anti choice, I think. Everyone is pro life. The opposite to pro life is pro death. And in some cases, some "pro lifers" are actually not pro life of the mother.

Very true actually.

oscarBravo · 18-06-2015 09:33AM

conorh91 wrote: »

You tried to characterize my position as being dismissive of rape victims as hysterical, and I find that particularly objectionable.

You introduced this straw man to the conversation:

conorh91 wrote: »

There is no evidence of a mental health benefit to abortion. There just isn't.

Nobody - nobody - has ever tried to make the case that there's a mental health benefit to abortion.

The whole question of leveraging suicide into the suite of risks to the life of the mother in order to work around the restrictions of the 8th amendment would be moot if we could keep the conversation focused on the core question, which is whether a woman has a right to choose not to be pregnant. All the red herrings of describing a blastocyst as a baby, or talking about abortion as a treatment for mental illness - these are "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" tactics.

Should a woman have the right to not be pregnant, or is pregnancy a duty that overrides her fundamental right to bodily integrity? That's the question.

Atlantis50 · 18-06-2015 09:52AM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Here you go babe x
Force is acceptable against woman to save baby.

Apparently a woman is a person to be respected until shes is pregnant and becomes sub human with no rights to her own body.

Nothing in those posts refers to using violence.

Have you found the link yet to support your claim that the hospital where the clinically dead pregnant woman resided was picketed by pro-life groups or are you making things up? :rolleyes:

Atlantis50 · 18-06-2015 09:54AM

Despite multiple questions, those on the pro-choice side on this thread have consistently failed to state at what stage they believe the right to life of the unborn is engaged.

Kev W · 18-06-2015 10:06AM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Despite multiple questions, those on the pro-choice side on this thread have consistently failed to state at what stage they believe the right to life of the unborn is engaged.

At the point where the fetus is viable outside the womb. I'm fairly sure that's been stated before.

Atlantis50 · 18-06-2015 10:12AM

Kev W wrote: »

At the point where the fetus is viable outside the womb. I'm fairly sure that's been stated before.

Is this also the stage that the woman then loses her "bodily autonomy" that I see referred to so much on this thread?

traprunner · 18-06-2015 10:13AM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Is this also the stage that the woman then loses her "bodily autonomy" that I see referred to so much on this thread?

She can stab herself in the stomach if she wishes. Better keep the knives hidden.

18-06-2015 10:15AM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Is this also the stage that the woman then loses her "bodily autonomy" that I see referred to so much on this thread?

Why the inverted commas? Which bit of the term do you not understand?

Atlantis50 · 18-06-2015 10:20AM

traprunner wrote: »

She can stab herself in the stomach if she wishes. Better keep the knives hidden.

Of course she can.

If it results in the death of the unborn, she may find herself prosecuted under Section 22 of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act:

Destruction of unborn human life
22. (1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to
a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.
(3) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the
consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Atlantis50 · 18-06-2015 10:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why the inverted commas? Which bit of the term do you not understand?

I'm quoting others on the thread who used the term.

When do you think the right to life of the unborn is engaged?

oscarBravo · 18-06-2015 10:24AM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

I'm quoting others on the thread who used the term.

Do you understand the term?

18-06-2015 10:38AM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

I'm quoting others on the thread who used the term.

I believe your post was the only one with the term in inverted commas.

Strange.

No Voter And Proud · 18-06-2015 11:12AM

Kev W wrote: »

At the point where the fetus is viable outside the womb. I'm fairly sure that's been stated before.

So an abortion is viable and moral at 23 weeks to you guys?

8th Amendment

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