8th Amendment

Kev W

conorh91 wrote: »

No I don't. I've no interest in intervening in an exchange, and telling people to talk about something else. A lot of people dislike awkward truths like the Irish obstetricians and psychiatrists who oppose the use of abortion where a pregnant woman is suicidal, and so they exhort posters to talk about something else.

Personally, I'm comfortable discussing the evidence. Not everyone is.

Are you comfortable discussing the fact that that list is a minority of obstetricians and psychiatrists cherry-picked from pro-life groups?

conorh91

Kev W wrote: »

Are you comfortable discussing the fact that that list is a minority of obstetricians and psychiatrists cherry-picked from pro-life groups?

Yes. I am probably the only person in the thread who put a number on how much of a minority it is (about 30% of consultant obstetrician-gynaecologists registered in Ireland)

The other obstetricians haven't made any collective statement in contradiction, and so it is not possible to infer anything either way.

I think 30% of the state's consultant obstetricians is substantial, however. They are basically saying that the Supreme Court decision in the Miss X case was misguided, from a clinical viewpoint.

traprunner

conorh91 wrote: »

I am probably the only person in the thread who put a number on how much of a minority it is (about 30% of consultant obstetrician-gynaecologists registered in Ireland)

The other obstetricians haven't made any collective statement in contradiction, and so it is not possible to infer anything either way.

I think 30% of the state's consultant obstetricians is substantial, however. They are basically saying that the Supreme Court decision in the Miss X case was misguided, from a clinical viewpoint.

37.9% of the votes in the Marriage Referendum were No. We should go back to the drawing board as a result.

conorh91

traprunner wrote: »

And 37.9% of the votes in the Marriage Referendum were No.

But we know that the majority said Yes.

There hasn't been a vote here. No survey has been undertaken. But about a third of Irish consultant obstetricians have said that the decision in the X case was misguided, and they have not been contradicted or supported by their peers.

When one acknowledged expert comes out and advances a position, we usually take notice, without demanding a national survey of his peers. When thirty acknowledged experts do so, you'd have to have a good reason for dismissing them. If anyone disagrees with the Dublin declaration, I would genuinely like to see their evidence.

traprunner

conorh91 wrote: »

But we know that the majority said Yes.

There hasn't been a vote here. No survey has been undertaken. But about a third of Irish consultant obstetricians have said that the decision in the X case was misguided, and they have not been contradicted or supported by their peers.

When one acknowledged expert comes out and advances a position, we usually take notice, without demanding a national survey of his peers. If anyone disagrees with the Dublin declaration, I would genuinely like to see their evidence.

I'm all for a national vote on repealing the 8th and then hopefully those 30% would know that the majority said Yes to repeal.

johnnyskeleton

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Yawn no answers coming about advocating violence. Good lad. I love special lil cherubs like you.

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Yeah yeah.

You keep searching for that link to exonerate yourself as a liar.

MOD: I do so terribly dislike it when people continue to snipe at each other after a mod warning.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll answer yours if you answer mine. Does that work for you?

Kev W wrote: »

...he said, dodging the question.

No more of this "you haven't answered my question" business please. That goes for everyone, not just Milana Sticky Klutz and Kev W. If someone hasn't responded to a point then they are probably not going to. Consider yourself to have won the point and move on

conorh91

traprunner wrote: »

I'm all for a national vote on repealing the 8th and then hopefully those 30% would know that the majority said Yes to repeal.

Have you ever wondered why the Irish Times, and other media, never publish polls on repealing the 8th amendment in its entirety?

They always publish polls which show that 60-70% of people agree with abortion where the unborn has a fatal abnormality, for example, but nothing about liberalizing abortion law in ordinary cases?

Ever wonder why that is?

Because it wouldn't pass.

Kev W

conorh91 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why the Irish Times, and other media, never publish polls on repealing the 8th amendment in its entirety?

They always publish polls which show that 60-70% of people agree with abortion where the unborn has a fatal abnormality, for example, but nothing about liberalizing abortion law in ordinary cases?

Ever wonder why that is?

Because it wouldn't pass.

That makes no sense. Why would they not publish a poll that would show that result?

traprunner

conorh91 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why the Irish Times, and other media, never publish polls on repealing the 8th amendment in its entirety?

They always publish polls which show that 60-70% of people agree with abortion where the unborn has a fatal abnormality, for example, but nothing about liberalizing abortion law in ordinary cases?

Ever wonder why that is?

Because it wouldn't pass.

I didn't think there was a conspiracy on this with the national papers. Surely it would be a big story either way a poll went so maybe no made the decision to conduct a repeal poll.

Loafing Oaf

conorh91 wrote: »

When one acknowledged expert comes out and advances a position, we usually take notice, without demanding a national survey of his peers. When thirty acknowledged experts do so, you'd have to have a good reason for dismissing them. If anyone disagrees with the Dublin declaration, I would genuinely like to see their evidence.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/19/abortion-mother-life-walsh/1644839/
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists issued a statement saying: "Abortions are necessary in a number of circumstances to save the life of a woman or to preserve her health. Unfortunately, pregnancy is not a risk-free life event."

But what would they know eh? Perhaps Irish women are biologically different from women elsewhere, have different medical needs...

conorh91

Kev W wrote: »

That makes no sense. Why would they not publish a poll that would show that result?

Because it might suggest that their newspaper tends to advance unpopular opinions. With rare exceptions, I think it is fair to say that these publications tend to favour liberal abortion laws.

Riddle me this. Repealing the 8th amendment has been consistently under discussion online and in the broadcast media since the tragic death of Savita Halappanavar in 2012.

Why do you suppose there are no recent published polls on the matter? As far as i am aware there have been none in the past 10 years, except narrow polls that focus on young age groups alone.

Why's that?

conorh91

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/19/abortion-mother-life-walsh/1644839/
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists issued a statement saying: "Abortions are necessary in a number of circumstances to save the life of a woman or to preserve her health. Unfortunately, pregnancy is not a risk-free life event."

I'm sure they are.
But not suicide.
Did you have a point?

Kev W

conorh91 wrote: »

Because it might suggest that their newspaper tends to advance unpopular opinions. With rare exceptions, I think it is fair to say that these publications tend to favour liberal abortion laws.

Riddle me this. Repealing the 8th amendment has been consistently under discussion online and in the broadcast media since the tragic death of Savita Halappanavar in 2012.

Why do you suppose there are no recent published polls on the matter? As far as i am aware there have been none in the past 10 years, except narrow polls that focus on young age groups alone.

Why's that?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/poll-act-now-on-abortion-say-voters-30602947.html

Loafing Oaf

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm sure they are.
But not suicide.
Did you have a point?

You said upthread:

It is clear that a substantial number of Irish experts in obstetrics and gynecology are in agreement that abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

Are you saying you don't agree with them? If so why are you quoting the Dublin declaration?

conorh91

Kev W wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/poll-act-now-on-abortion-say-voters-30602947.html

Ah right so perhaps 34% want liberal abortion laws. Not a poll you tend to see, I wasn't aware there were any.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Are you saying you don't agree with them? If so why are you quoting the Dublin declaration?

The Dublin declaration holds that where the unborn dies during a medical intervention which intends to save the life of the mother, it is not abortion. I think that's where the confusion lies.

Kev W

conorh91 wrote: »

Ah right so perhaps 34% want liberal abortion laws. Not a poll you tend to see, I wasn't aware there were any.

It took literally 10 seconds on Google to find that.

Loafing Oaf

conorh91 wrote: »

Ah right so perhaps 34% want liberal abortion laws. Not a poll you tend to see, I wasn't aware there were any.

The Dublin declaration holds that where the unborn dies during a medical intervention which intends to save the life of the mother, it is not abortion. I think that's where the confusion lies.

You asked for evidence contradicting the Dublin Declaration. Clearly a statement by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists doesn't have the requisite standing for you...

PopePalpatine

I also doubt that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists used that moronically loaded term "direct abortion" in their statement.

conorh91

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

You asked for evidence contradicting the Dublin Declaration. Clearly a statement by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists doesn't have the requisite standing for you...

I don't believe it contradicts the Dublin declaration, some of whose adherents are members of the ACOG. The Dublin declaration distinguishes between purposeful abortions and medical intervention to save a mother's life: for example, they do not consider removing the unborn during an ectoptic pregnancy to be an abortion. It's rather a semantic point perhaps.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that the ACOG does not cite suicidal ideation as an sound clinical reason for abortion.

Loafing Oaf

conorh91 wrote: »

I don't believe it contradicts the Dublin declaration, some of whose adherents are members of the ACOG. The Dublin declaration distinguishes between purposeful abortions and medical intervention to save a mother's life: for example, they do not consider removing the unborn during an ectoptic pregnancy to be an abortion. It's rather a semantic point perhaps.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that the ACOG does not cite suicidal ideation as an sound clinical reason for abortion.

But your whole argument is that definition of 'abortion' adopted by the signatories of the Dublin Declaration should take precedence over that of ACOG and AFAIK that of the vast majority of ob/gyns elsewhere in the world...Is there are any other area of medical practice where this sort of (predominantly) Irish exceptionalism applies?

Loafing Oaf

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I also doubt that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists used that moronically loaded term "direct abortion" in their statement.

And he didn't say 'direct abortion' in the line I quoted anyway...

conorh91

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But your whole argument is that definition of 'abortion' adopted by the signatories of the Dublin Declaration should take precedence over that of ACOG

No it isn't. I called their point semantic.

I see ACOG's position and the Dublin declaration as achieving the same end result. I don't particularly care whether it's called abortion or direct abortion, or whatever. I accept that there are situations where a medical intervention to save the life of a woman will result in the death of the unborn, but i don't think a purposeful abortion (or direct abortion, if you prefer) is necessary.

I don't think you understand this point, because it has already been made. i don't know what else to say to you.

Delirium

conorh91 wrote: »

I don't believe it contradicts the Dublin declaration, some of whose adherents are members of the ACOG. The Dublin declaration distinguishes between purposeful abortions and medical intervention to save a mother's life: for example, they do not consider removing the unborn during an ectoptic pregnancy to be an abortion. It's rather a semantic point perhaps.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that the ACOG does not cite suicidal ideation as an sound clinical reason for abortion.

why would they when they advocate for abortion on request prior to foetal viability? The scenario they support would mean that women wouldn't have to be suicidal before being allowed an abortion.

PDF of their statement on abortion as per Nov 2014.

Loafing Oaf

conorh91 wrote: »

No it isn't. I called their point semantic.

I see ACOG's position and the Dublin declaration as achieving the same end result. I don't particularly care whether it's called abortion or direct abortion, or whatever.

Then I can't see why you're bringing up the Dublin declaration. Like you say we'll have to leave it there I guess...

K-9

conorh91 wrote: »

Unless one is of the opinion that suicide is a wise or rational response to a pregnancy, then one has to seriously consider the possibility that a woman who responds to pregnancy in that way is perhaps suffering from some underlying condition to which she is perhaps predisposed.

That's a pretty text book example of depression and suicide from my experience of it, often some event triggers underlying depression. Basically the depression was always there, with good and bad times, often it's only when people take stock and look back at their lives that episodes of depression stand out. They just wouldn't have been aware at the time that these were bouts of depression. Its a clever little beast at hiding itself like that!

K-9

Looking at it practically, does it really matter if somebody had a predisposition to depression and suicide?

A pregnancy making a woman suicidal means she is going to require medium to long term care, and often relapses occur in recovery. I'm not sure what the woman is supposed to do in the interim, some of time which she'll be heavily pregnant! Again, are we suggesting a suicidal pregnant woman should be forced to carry through with the birth because she might be well in 2 or 3 years time?

PopePalpatine

I can't believe no-one's brought up (at least explicitly) the effect of a crisis pregnancy on a woman's mental health. IIRC a psychiatrist took issue with the Legatus cronies using their research to claim that abortion damages a woman's mental health, rather than the crisis pregnancy that she aborted.

Black Menorca

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Here's a bit more background info. Surprise, surprise, Youth Defence's Eoghan de Faoite organised it. :rolleyes:

Fair play to him.

Black Menorca

oscarBravo wrote: »

No? Well, I'm sure there's some other equally patronising reason that a man can explain to a woman as to why she's suicidal.

What has gender got to do with suicide claims from men or women?

Black Menorca

traprunner wrote: »

She can stab herself in the stomach if she wishes. Better keep the knives hidden.

Hence the reason full time supervision needs to be considered in some cases.