8th Amendment

volchitsa

am946745 wrote: »

Strange how our Maternal Mortality rate is lower than the UK.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=2223

Not that strange. For one thing, ours is underreported. And rising.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/ireland-scores-poorly-for-rates-of-maternal-death-30756530.html

http://aimsireland.ie/irelands-maternal-death-rate-depends-on-who-you-are-asking/

More importantly, unless you have evidence that refusing to allow women abortions for health reasons actually increases survivial rates, that's completely irrelevant. And even if there was such evidence, it still wouldn't justify forcing women to continue pregnancies against their will. That's a human rights issue, and you can't necessarily save people's lives against their will.

am946745

volchitsa wrote: »

Not that strange. For one thing, ours is underreported. And rising.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831




More importantly, unless you have evidence that refusing to allow women abortions for health reasons actually increases survivial rates, that's completely irrelevant. And even if there was such evidence, it still wouldn't justify forcing women to continue pregnancies against their will. That's a human rights issue, and you can't necessarily save people's lives against their will.

Ah now. using that argument gets you nowhere. When pro-choice does not like the facts.. Then invent them.

We are not letting pregnant women die in Ireland. Our Obstetricians Gynecologists are not letting women at risk died from complications that they deal with every day of the week.

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

Strange how our Maternal Mortality rate is lower than the UK.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=2223

And yet Estonia, which is rate the lowest, has legal abortion.

Greece, Singapore, Sweden, Austria and almost all countries with a reduced MMR compared to Ireland. So if you're going to use that chart as a metric to argue for/against abortion then it's clearly a pro-choice result.

volchitsa

am946745 wrote: »

Ah now. using that argument gets you nowhere. When pro-choice does not like the facts.. Then invent them.

We are not letting pregnant women die in Ireland. Our Obstetricians Gynecologists are not letting women at risk died from complications that they deal with every day of the week.

What facts exactly are you referring to?

So Sally Rowlette and Savita Halappanavar - what? They didn't die? They would have died no matter where they were? Or a few avoidable deaths doesn't really matter? What exactly are you saying? One minte you're claiming our maternal death rates are important because (you think) they're good - and now you see they aren't as good as all that, suddenly the figures don't matter, our brave doctors are doing perfectly?

So remind us why you claim Savita Halappanavar died then? I thought you said there was medical negligence? Or do you now think the law was at fault?

am946745

SW wrote: »

And yet Estonia, which is rate the lowest, has legal abortion.

Greece, Singapore, Sweden, Austria and almost all countries with a reduced MMR compared to Ireland. So if you're going to use that chart as a metric to argue for/against abortion then it's clearly a pro-choice result.

Statistical syllogism does not lead to a fact based conclusion.

volchitsa

am946745 wrote: »

Statistical syllogism does not lead to a fact based conclusion.

No. So what was the relevance of your earlier post claiming (wrongly) that we have a significantly better rate than the UK? You're the one who brought a statistics claim into this.

Looks very much like you're doing what you accused pro-choice posters of doing, ie wanting to change the facts when you're in trouble.

am946745

volchitsa wrote: »

No. So what was the relevance of your earlier post claiming (wrongly) that we have a significantly better rate than the UK?

Because you claimed women health was at risk in Ireland because of the Eight Amendment. And that is not the case.

volchitsa

am946745 wrote: »

Because you claimed women health was at risk in Ireland because of the Eight Amendment. And that is not the case.

But it is. Several Obstetricians have said so, including Rhona Mahony. And the MMR, which only concerns maternal mortality, might not show that anyway.

pmasterson95

am946745 wrote: »

Statistical syllogism does not lead to a fact based conclusion.

Are you talking to yourself?

am946745

volchitsa wrote: »

But it is. Several Obstetricians have said so, including Rhona Mahony. And the MMR, which only concerns maternal mortality, might not show that anyway.

What about these who defend our Eight?

Obstetricians / Gynaecologists

Dr. Makbul Ahmed MD PhD, MRCOG
Dr. Khawaja Naveed Anjum MB BS, MRCOG
Dr. John Bermingham MB BCh, MRCOG
Prof. John Bonnar MD, FRCPI, FRCOG
Dr. Maureen Brennan MB DCH, DTM&H, FRCOG
Dr. Michael Brassil MB BCh, FRCOG
Dr. Patrick Conway MD, FACOG
Dr. James Clinch MB BCh, MA, MD, FRCOG Past Master of the Coombe Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. Naser Giumaa MB BCh, MRCOG
Dr. Trevor Hayes MB BCh, FRCS, MRCOG
Dr. Bartlomiej Kuzera MD
Dr. Subhash Kohli MRCS, MB BS, MRCOG
Dr. Stephen Long DCH, MAO, FRCOG
Dr. Dermot MacDonald MD, FACOG, FRCOG, FRCPI, Past Master of the National Maternity Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. Alistair McFarlane MB BCh, FRCS, MRCOG
Dr. Eamon McGuinness MB BCh, MA, FRCPI, FRCOG
Dr. John Monaghan DCH, FRCPI, FRCOG
Dr. Vida Naciene MD, MRCOG
Prof. Eamon O’Dwyer MB, MAO, LLB, FRCPI, FRCOG
Dr. Eileen Reilly MB BCh, MRCOG
Dr. Shobha Singh MB BS, MRCOG
Dr. Cyril Thornton MB BCh, FRCOG
Dr. Helen O’Brien MB BCh, BAO, OBGYN
Dr. Phil Boyle MD, MICGP, MRCGP
Dr. Caroline Guindon MD, CFCMC
Dr. Rita O’Connor MB BCh, BAO, DCH, D.Obs
Dr. Hugh Nohilly MB BCh, BAO, MICGP, DRCOG
Prof. Michael Foley MB BCh, MRCOG, MAO
Dr. Patrick Burke MB BCh, BAO, FACOG
Dr. Pauline Nagle Olsen MD, FRCOG
Prof. Mary Josephine O’Sullivan MD, FACOG, MFM
Dr. Sebastian Borges MBBS, DGO, DHSM, LM, MRCOG
Dr. Gayle J. Borkowski MD
Dr. Richard Brazzel MD
Dr. Julia Bright MD
Dr. Evelyn Brister MD
Dr. Laurence Burns MD
Dr. Freda M. Bush MD, FACOG
Dr. Rafael José Cabrera MD
Dr. Bryon C. Calhoun MD, FACOG, FACS, MBA
Dr. Monique V. Chireau MD, MPH
Dr. Sandy Christiansen MD, FACOG
Dr. Damon Cudihy MD
Dr. Howard Curlin MD, FACOG
Dr. John Curlin MD, FACOG
Dr. Mary Davenport MD, FACOG
Dr. Joseph DeCook MD, FACOG
Dr. Edward Degnan MD, ABOG
Dr. Mark Doherty MD, FACOG, DABOG, FACS
Dr. Myles Dotto MD, FACOG
Dr. Brad Fields MD
Dr. Shaun J. Gillis MD
Dr. Carlos A. Gómez Fajardo PDS JLG
Dr. David D. Goodwin MD
Dr. Robert A. Graebe MD
Dr. J. Paul Gray MD
Dr. Donna J Harrison, MD
Dr. John G. Hartmann MD
Dr. Nathan Hoeldtke MD, FACOG
Dr. Christopher Keane MD
Dr. Christopher C. Homeyer MD, FACOG
Dr. Paul Jarrett MD, FACOG
Dr. Jean Kagia MBCHB(NBI), M Med OBS/GYNE
Prof. Jeffrey A. Keenan MD, HCLD, ABOG
Dr. Albert H. Kim MD
Dr. Jerome Klobutcher MD OBGYN
Dr. David L. Lang DO FACOG
Dr. Patrick Marmion MD, MPH
Dr. Danny McDonald MD, ABOG
Dr. John McLaughlin MD
Dr. Richard Moutvic MD, FACOG
Dr. Alan J. Murnane MD, AAPLOG, FACOG
Dr. Elizabeth D. Nelson MD
Dr. William Polzin MD
Dr. Russell R Suda MD, FACOG
Dr. Kathleen M Raviele MD FACOG
Dr. Fred Seale MD FACOG
Dr. William Stalter MD FACOG
Prof. Joseph Stanford MD, MPSH, CFCMC
Dr. Mark Stegman MD, FACOG, CFCMC
Dr. Shawn Swan MD
Dr. Thomas Theocharides MD, FACOG, FRCS(C) FSOGC
Dr. Philip Tyndall MD, ACOG
Dr. Michael Valley MD ABOG
Dr. Nicole Varasteh MD
Dr. Steven Ver Beek MD, ABOG
Dr. Jerry Wittingen MD, FACOG
Dr. Hanna Klaus MD, FACOG
Dr. Clint Leonard FACOG
Dr. Rudolf Ehmann OBGYN
Dr. Robert Walley MD
Dr. Bruno Mozzanega MD
Dr. Mario Terán de la Vega MD
Dr. Jose Roberto Fuentes MD
Dr. Ventura Serrano MD
Dr. Patrick Yeung MD
Dr. Kyle A. Beiter, MD, FACOG
Dr. Michael Dixon, MD
Dr. George Buttigieg MD, LRCP, MRCS, DIPFP, FRCOG, KGCOM
Dr. Angélica María Sarmiento MD
Dr. Sergio Valenzuela MD
Dr. Mary Thomas MD
Dr. Nick Steinauer FACOG
Dr. Jose Sanchez-Méndez MD, PhD
Dr. Sebastian Illanes MD MSc
Dr. Michael O’Donnell OBGYN
Dr. James Linn MD
Dr. Ingeborg Collins MD
Dr. Arlene Conte MD
Dr. Jorge Neira OBGYN
Dr. Vicente Ramos Barrientos OBGYN
Dr. Daniel Wechter MD
Dr. Marcia Snowball MD
Dr. John Thorp MD
Dr. Michael Trierweiler MD, Dip ABOG
Dr. Courtney Malcarney MD, ACOG, ACS
Dr. John Tyndall MD, FACOG
Dr. Scott Cameron MD
Dr. Rafeal Vicens MD
Dr. Lawrence Cairns MD, FACOG
Dr. Lori Carrillo MD, FACOG
Dr. Graciano Singson MD
Dr. Robert Gannon MD
Dr. Thomas Sparks MD, OBGYN
Dr. Robert Plambeck MD
Dr. Monica Alexandrina Campen MD
Dr. Karla Polaschek MD, FACOG
Prof. Humberto Rodriguez MD
Dr. Anthony Levatino MD JD
Dr. Alfred Derby MD
Dr. Robert Albee MD, FACOG, ACGE
Dr. Miriam Duggan MD, OBYGYN
Dr. Cicy Jose DGO
Dr. Angelo Francesco Filardo AIGOC
Dr. Maurice Caillet MD
Dr. Camilla Hersh MD, F.A.C.O.G.
Dr. Philip Lewis MD
Dr. Trevor Martenson MD, OBGYN
Dr. Jacob Peyton MD
Dr. Karin Shinn DO
Dr. John Shields MD
Dr. William Coyle MD,FACS, FACOg
Dr. Peter Verrill MD FACOG
Dr. Dana Jacques MD
Dr. John O’Neill MB BAO BCh, OBGYN
Dr. Francoise Pinguet MD
Dr. Josephine Martina MS. OG
Dr. Beatrice Labenere MD
Dr. Brendan Miller MBBS, FRACGP, MRANZCOG
Dr. Sylvie de Kermadec MD
Prof. Farah Asghar MD, FRCOG
Dr. Lanett Guthmann MD, FACOG
Dr. Poussie Pascale MD
Dr. Josef Lingenhoele MD, OBGYN
Dr. Tania Errasti MD
Dr. Stephen Robinson MD
Dr. Jeffrey Henney MD
Dr. Margaret Hart DO
Dr. Casey Reising MD
Dr. Jason Peters MD
Dr. Scott Osborn DO
Dr. William P. Mueller MD
Dr. Louise Murphy MD
Dr. Theo O’Donnell MD
Dr. Nancy Lefever MD
Dr. Amy Hogan MD, CFCMC
Dr. Reynaldo Garza MD
Dr. Maria Cuda DO
Dr. Marguerite Duane MD, MHA, FAAFP
Dr. Clement Marrinan MBBS, FRCOG, FRANZCOG
Dr. Robyn James MD
Dr. Richard Fry MD
Dr. Thomas Giebmanns MD
Dr. Amy Givler MD
Dr. Paul Keough MD
Dr. Luke McLindon MBBS, FRACGP
Dr. Marissa Ogle MD
Dr. Albertine Omani MD
Dr. Africa Rebollo Cuadro MD
Dr Maria Isabella Sereni MD
Dr. Jerry Sinclair MD
Dr. Jerome Sinsky MD
Prof. Leonard Smith MD
Dr. Roy Stringfellow MD ABOG
Dr. Barbara Susang-Talamo MD, FACOG
Dr. Antoinette Torte BHSc, MBBS, DRANZCOG
Dr. James R. VanCuren MD
Dr. Leo Wrona MD, ACOBG
Dr. Paul Carpentier MD, CFCMC
Dr. Lester Jurgens MD
Dr. Leonard Marotta MD, MS, FACOG
Dr. Amin Louli MB BCh, FRCOG, FICS
Dr. Jimmy Baggot MD
Dr. MIriam Pereira MD
Dr. Mark Rollo MD
Dr. Catherine Grant MB BS, DipRACOG
Dr. Julene Haack MBBS Hons I, Dip RANZCOG, FRACGP
Dr. Kathy O’Connell MD
Dr. Lachlan Dunjey MB BS, FRACGP, DObstRCOG
Dr. Patrick Jr. Yeung MD, FACOG, SLS, AAGL, ACOG, ASCCP, AAFP
Dr. Geoffret Hunt MBBS, DRANZCOG, FRACGP, FARGP
Dr. Elvis Seman MBBS, FRCOG, FRANZCOG, EUCOGE
Dr. Joshua Johannson MD, ABOG
Dr. Johnny Bryant MD, ABOG
Dr. James Hartman MD, ABOG
Dr. Fred Seale MD, FACOG
Dr. Nancy Goodwine Wozniak MD, ABOG
Dr. Anita Avery MD, ABOG
Dr. Sarah Smith MD
Dr. Melissa Allen MD, FACOG
Dr. Anita Showalter DO, ABOG
Dr. John North MBBS, FRACS, FAOrthA
Dr. Norman Gage MRCOG, UK FRANZGOG
Dr. Magdalena Szymanska MD
Dr. William R Coyle FACS, FACOG
Dr. Alan Donoghue MB BCh, MBA, FRANZCOG, FRCOG
Dr. Michael S. Parker MD, ABOG
Dr. Adrian K. Thomas FRACOG, FRANZCOG
Dr. Susan Rutherford MD, ABOG, MFM
Dr. Albert Bringardner MD, LFACOG
Dr. Steve Brewbaker MD, ABOG
Dr. Anne Manning MD, ABOG
Dr. Leonard Marotta, MD, MS, FACOG
Dr. Margaret Keresztesi
Dr. Vansen Wong, OBGYN
Dr. Ionel Trifon Cioata OBGYN MD PhD
Dr. Rafael Ordonez Martin OBGYN
Dr. José Inganio Tubío OBGYN
Dr. Victoriano Gracia OBGYN
Dr. Carlos Lana Antolin OBGYN
Dr. Esteban Rodriguez Martin OBGYN
Dr. Rafael Luis Pineda OBGYN
Prof. Juan Pablo Pineda OBGYN
Dr. Andrej Mikolasik OBGYN
Dr. Deirdre Little MBBS DRANZCOG FACRRM
Dr. Joao Malta OBGYN
Prof. Ernesto Beruti OBGYN PhD
Dr. Jorge Gonzalez MD PhD
Dr. John-David Zamora, MD OBGYN GYN Oncologist
Dr. Leah Zamora MD FPOGS
Dr. Gabriele Falconi MD, PhD
Con. George Buttigieg, MD, LRCP,MRCS, FRCOG, DIP FP, FRCO, MA (Melita), KGCOM
Dr. Ronald Motley, MD, PhD

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

Statistical syllogism does not lead to a fact based conclusion.

Funny that you reject your own argument when reflected back at you.

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

But it is. Several Obstetricians have said so, including Rhona Mahony. And the MMR, which only concerns maternal mortality, might not show that anyway.

What's Rhona's record on keeping her hospital clean and sterile?

am946745

SW wrote: »

Funny that you reject your own argument when reflected back at you.

Did I start out saying Ireland was unsafe for a Mother to have a child? That our laws were adding risk to the mother?

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

What about these who defend our Eight?

[....signatories of Dublin Declartion]

This was dealt with in another thread by oldrnwsr. Excellent worthwhile read.

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I'm a bit short on time at the moment but I will get to all your points over the weekend. However, I wanted to deal with this one sooner than the others because it is the most heinous of the bad arguments you promulgate in your posts.

Before we get to the declaration, let's get a couple of things out of the way.

This declaration arose, as Lingua Franca points out, from a symposium organised by anti-abortion activists and composed entirely of pro-life medical professionals. This degree of self-selection already makes it unrepresentative of the medical field and medical best practice.
Secondly, it is an appeal to authority. The declaration makes no reference to research or publications to support its claim but is rather a position statement, the collective "opinion" of these doctors. This makes the declaration utterly useless.
Thirdly, the claim about abortion never being medically necessary is plain wrong. The term "direct abortion" used in the declaration appears nowhere in the medical literature as PopePalpatine points out. The term comes from a comment made by one of the signatories, John Bonnar in 1992:

"It is actually intervening, usually in a normal pregnancy, to get rid of the
pregnancy, to get rid of the foetus. That is what we would consider the direct procurement of an abortion. In other words, it’s an unwanted baby and, therefore, you intervene to end its life. That has never been a part of the practice of Irish obstetrics and I hope it never will be."

Bonnar further clarified direct abortion in 2000 stating:

"In current obstetrical practice rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention is required at a stage in pregnancy when there will be little or no prospect for the survival of the baby, due to extreme immaturity. In these exceptional situations failure to intervene may result in the death of both mother and baby. We consider that there is a fundamental difference between abortion carried out with the intention of taking the life of the baby, for example for social reasons, and the unavoidable death of the baby resulting from essential treatment to protect the life of the mother."

So, what the declaration actually says is that abortion carried out for non-medical reasons is not medically necessary. Blinding flash of the obvious there.

There are, as has been shown on this thread previously, conditions which do require abortion as a treatment. Ectopic pregnancy, for example:

"Ectopic pregnancies is a life-threatening condition. The pregnancy cannot continue to birth (term). The developing cells must be removed to save the mother's life."


[Source]

Furthermore, it also goes against the testimony given to the Dail Committee on Abortion:

Dr. Declan Keane - Master of the National Maternity Hospital

"HELLP syndrome, which is a variant of pre-eclamptic
toxaemia, a condition where the mother has severe hypertension
where the liver is involved … We had a case in 1998,
as I say, where the woman was severely ill with this
condition. She was transferred to a neighbouring general
hospital under the care of the liver specialist and the medical
opinion that we got from the liver specialist was that this
woman was going to die if her pregnancy did not end. It was
a very difficult decision to make. We obviously had to not
only talk at length with the parents involved but with our
legal team as well. But there was no other way in which this
woman would have lived if the pregnancy had continued.
Continuing his evidence Dr Keane referred to another rare condition:

I note that the Green Paper and indeed the submissions have
talked about other possible indications which would include
severe cardiac disease in pregnancy and Eisenmenger’s
syndrome has been mentioned. The Coombe Hospital had a
woman who died from Eisenmenger’s syndrome only last year
and I suspect that the master of the Coombe may wish to
make a comment on that later on. Certainly in my experience
in Oxford we unfortunately again had to terminate two
pregnancies in women with Eisenmenger’s syndrome because
the real risks to the woman, if the pregnancy had continued,
were considerable."


Now, on to the declaration. The declaration which arose out of a symposium of just 150 medical professionals has now attracted 700 signatures. Now even if all of these professionals are doctors and Irish that is still just 4% of the total doctors registered in Ireland. However, this figure is subdivided as follows:

225 OBGYNs
307 Medical Professionals (Aren't they all medical professionals?)
41 Midwives & Nurses
34 Neonatologists & Paediatricians
13 Medical Students (Seriously?)

So, firstly, the "over 700 signatories" touted by the website turns out to be just 620.
Secondly, there are 41 nurses & midwives who have signed the declaration. However, according to An Bord Altranais there were over 66,000 active registered nurses in Ireland in 2013. That's just 0.06% of the total. So again completely unrepresentative.
Thirdly, there are 13 medical students included. Even though this declaration is just an opinion piece anyway, why the well would the signatures of medical students be at all persuasive. I'm sure they signed because of all their years of experience in dealing with the complications of pregnancy.

Now, the most important question here is whether these signatories are Irish. From the perspective of whether or not the claim is true, nationality is irrelevant, however, the Dublin Declaration supporters such as yourself are promulgating this statement as if it is somehow meaningful or representative of the opinions of doctors. Even if all these doctors were Irish, their opinions would just be a tiny minority, but the question is are they all Irish?

As it turns out, unsurprisingly, NO.

Let's take some examples, starting with the Medical Professionals group:


Dr. John Wilks (Signature no. 307, Medical Professionals)

Writer for pro-life website lifeissues.net and a Consultant Pharmacist (in Japan).


Dr. Douglas Randell BSc(Med) MBBS, DAvMed, MACTM, FRACGP, FACAsM (Signature no. 294, Medical Professionals)

A specialist in Aerospace medicine with a registered clinic at:

Harrison Road,
Duntroon,
Canberra 2600,
Australia


Dr. Eamonn Mathieson MBBS FANZCA
Dr. Rhys Morgan MBBS (Hons) FANZCA
(Signatures 265 & 266, Medical Professionals)

Both of the above are registered anaesthetists and hold the qualification FANZCA (Fellow of the Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists. Mathieson currently works at the Mercy Hospital for Women in Melbourne, while Morgan no longer actually practices medicine but rather sits on a number of boards and committees including government medical advisory committees, chairman of Welseley Anaesthesia & Pain Management Group and the board of a rural development programme in Shaanxi province, China. Of course all this free time away from medicine means that he could complete his degree in theology from the Australian College of Theology.


Dr. Jonathan Baré MBBS FRACS (Signature 267, Medical Professionals)


A qualified surgeon from Melbourne, Bare specialises in Knee & Hip Surgery. So I'm sure he's eminently qualified to speak about his 0 years of experience in dealing with pregnant women.


Dr. Joseph Turner MBBS, BMedSc(Hons), PhD, FACRRM (Signature 239, Medical Professionals)

A qualified doctor and pharmacy lecturer, Turner specialises in Rural and Remote Medicine (FACRRM). So he was ideally suited to dealing with all the pregnant women he encountered while serving as Lead Doctor on US TV series Survivor.


Dr. Amanda Lamont MBBS, DipWH, CFCMC, CFCE (Signature 203, Medical Professionals)

A fertility specialist, Lamont practices medicine from her clinic in:

Suite 15, Dr 7 Medical Centre 162 Wanneroo Rd, Yokine WA 6060, Australia

So a woman who spends her professional life helping women to conceive is against abortion. Gee, there's a shocker.


Dr. Dominic Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh (Signature 84, Medical Professionals)

A triple specialist, Pedulla specialises in cardiology, vein diseases and vascular medicine at the Oklahoma Vein & Endovascular Center. I'm sure that he has lots of conversations about abortion as he spends his days blasting varicose veins from little old ladies.


The medical professionals group is a disparate group of doctors from across the globe whose expertise in the area (the one thing that even be remotely persuasive) is borderline at best. And this is supposed to be proof of what exactly?


As for the OBGYN group:

Dr. John North MBBS, FRACS, FAOrthA (Signature 212, Obstetricians & Gynaecologists)

John North is a qualified orthopaedic surgeon with 38 years of specialist experience in Queensland. Hold on, isn't this supposed to be the list of OBGYNs. Oops! The FAOrthA qualification should have been a dead giveaway.


Dr. Norman Gage MRCOG, UK FRANZGOG (Signature 213, Obstetricians & Gynaecologists)

A member of Doctors for the Family, Gage has campaigned against same-sex marriage along with his fundamentalist Christian cohorts. So I'm sure he is relying on solid medical evidence in forming his opinion and not his religious beliefs. Right?


Dr. Margaret Hart DO (Signature 158, Obstetricians & Gynaecologists)


A specialist in geriatric medicine from Jackson, Minnesota. I'm sure she must be totally outraged at all the senior citizens plaguing her for abortions.


Dr. Sebastian Borges MBBS, DGO, DHSM, LM, MRCOG (Signature 32, Obstetricians & Gynaecologists)

This name should stand out if none of the others don't. A qualified OBGYN, Borges practiced in Irish hospitals in the 1980s before relocating to Scotland. Borges was struck off in 2001 for sexually inappropriate and unnecessary examinations of women in the UK. A bastion of moral courage right there.

All told out of the 225 names on this list there are over 150 Americans not to mention doctors from Australia, Colombia, Malta, Italy, France, Poland, Canada, Spain and Chile. In total less than 30 of the 225 names are active registered doctors in Ireland.

As for the Neonatologists & Paediatricians group, well what do you know the same ragtag bunch of fundamentalist christians (Michelle Cretella is a writer for lifesitenews and an anti-SSM campaigner) and non-nationals. In this list just 2 out of 34 names are Irish. Even this list, however isn't immune from the falsehoods of the other list. One name on the list stands out: Eucharia Anunobi. While listed as a doctor, this former actress turned evangelical minister has no such qualifications.


This list is worse than useless, it is composed of doctors (mostly non-specialists) giving their opinion. Many of them belong to conservative Christian advocacy groups indicating their positions have more to do with religion than any real medical science. Only a small fraction of the overall list is Irish meaning that whatever way you slice it, these opinions don't represent anyone but the people who signed. It has no bearing on best practice or the opinions of the majority of doctors.

Your argument based as it is on this list is fractally wrong.

am946745

DUBLIN DECLARATION ON MATERNAL HEALTHCARE
“As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion – the purposeful destruction of the unborn child – is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion, and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”

http://www.dublindeclaration.com/signatories/

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

Did I start out saying Ireland was unsafe for a Mother to have a child? That our laws were adding risk to the mother?

No, and neither did I respond to the above in any way but rather to your use of stats to suggest that no abortion leads to lower MMR rates. Even though your own link shows that to be incorrect.

Black Menorca

am946745 wrote: »

DUBLIN DECLARATION ON MATERNAL HEALTHCARE
“As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion – the purposeful destruction of the unborn child – is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion, and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”

http://www.dublindeclaration.com/signatories/

Gotta love the Dublin Declaration.

am946745

SW wrote: »

This was dealt with in another thread by oldrnwsr. Excellent worthwhile read.

Did I ever argue against delivering the child when a women is suffering from pre-eclamptic toxaemia? Doctors ALREADY carry out these procedures. The fact they do due diligence and check their facts before ending the pregnancy is good.

Our eight amendment is clear.. There is rights at both ends, but it does not constrain our medics to end a pregnancy to save the mothers life.

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

Did I ever argue against delivering the child when a women is suffering from pre-eclamptic toxaemia? Doctors ALREADY carry out these procedures. The fact they do due diligence and check they facts before ending the pregnancy is good.

Our eight amendment is clear.. There is rights at both ends, but it does not constrain our medics to end a pregnancy to save the mothers life.

is there a reason you seem to argue against something I haven't said? It's the second such post in minutes.

The post was to give information about the signatories of the declaration and to show that very few of the signatories (e.g 30 of 225 OBGYNs listed) are based in Ireland.

am946745

SW wrote: »

is there a reason you seem to argue against something I haven't said? It's the second such post in minutes.

The post was to give information about the signatories of the declaration and to show that very few of the signatories (e.g 30 of 225 OBGYNs listed) are based in Ireland.

So, non Irish are what ? Are they fake signatures or less qualified?

In case you haven't noticed there are a good number of non-Irish doctors now working in Irish Hospitals.

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

So, non Irish are what ? Are they fake signatures or less qualified?

Never said anything of the kind.

In case you haven't noticed there are a good number of non-Irish doctors now working in Irish Hospitals.

How did you get 'no foreign doctors work in Ireland' from 'doctors not based in Ireland'?

am946745

SW wrote: »

Never said anything of the kind.

How did you get 'no foreign doctors work in Ireland' from 'doctors not based in Ireland'?

What is the point you are making?

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

What is the point you are making?

Just wondering what is noteworthy of a declaration signed by a few hundred pro-life doctors, nurses from around the world. Especially when posted by someone who was recently decrying people posting biased links to support their argument.

am946745

SW wrote: »

Just wondering what is noteworthy of a declaration signed by a few hundred pro-life doctors, nurses from around the world. Especially when posted by someone who was recently decrying people posting biased links to support their argument.

So their qualifications mean nothing? As regards bias. well it seems its a case here of fight fire with fire.

conorh91

SW wrote: »

This was dealt with in another thread by oldrnwsr. Excellent worthwhile read.

Ehhm hugely selective quote rather, and ironically so, considering his criticism.

Because he ignores altogether names like :

Prof John Bonnar, former professor of Obstetrics & Gynaecology at Trinity College Dublin
Prof. Eamon O’Dwyer, Professor of Obstetrics & Gynaecology at NUIG
Dr. James Clinch, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Past Master of the Coombe Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. Dermot Mac Donald, MD, FACOG, FRCOG, FRCPI, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Past Master of National Maternity, Dublin.
Dr. John bermingham, Consultant Obstetrician at University Hospital in Waterford
Dr. Michael Brassil, MB BCh, FRCOG, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Portiuncula Hospital, Co. Galway.
Dr. Maureen Brennan, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist Retired, Dublin.
Dr. Eamon Mc Guinness, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, St. James Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. Naser Giumaa, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Portiuncula Hospital, Co. Galway.
Dr. Trevor Hayes, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, St. Lukes Hospital, Kilkenny.
Dr. Bartlomiej Kuzera, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Sims International Fertility Clinic, Dublin.
Dr. Subhash Kohli, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Retired, Kildare
Dr. John Monaghan, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Portiuncula Hospital, Co. Galway.
Dr. Vida Naciene, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Family Med Clinic, Clontarf, Dublin.
Dr. Eileen Reilly, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Galway Clinic, Galway.
Dr. Shobha Singh, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Midland Regional Hospital, Portlaoise.
Dr. Cyril Thornton, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Cork Clinic, Cork.

I'm not sure how many others on that list are operating in Ireland, but it's clearly substantial from that brief glance.

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

So their qualifications mean nothing? As regards bias. well it seems its a case here of fight fire with fire.

no, I never said their qualifications (those of them that have relevant qualifications) mean nothing. Just that it's no surprise that a room full of pro-life advocates signed a document stating they oppose abortion.

Delirium

conorh91 wrote: »

Ehhm hugely selective quote rather, and ironically so, considering his criticism.

Because he ignores altogether names like :

Prof John Bonnar, former professor of Obstetrics & Gynaecology at Trinity College Dublin
Prof. Eamon O’Dwyer, Professor of Obstetrics & Gynaecology at NUIG
Dr. James Clinch, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Past Master of the Coombe Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. Dermot Mac Donald, MD, FACOG, FRCOG, FRCPI, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Past Master of National Maternity, Dublin.
Dr. John bermingham, Consultant Obstetrician at University Hospital in Waterford
Dr. Michael Brassil, MB BCh, FRCOG, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Portiuncula Hospital, Co. Galway.
Dr. Maureen Brennan, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist Retired, Dublin.
Dr. Eamon Mc Guinness, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, St. James Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. Naser Giumaa, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Portiuncula Hospital, Co. Galway.
Dr. Trevor Hayes, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, St. Lukes Hospital, Kilkenny.
Dr. Bartlomiej Kuzera, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Sims International Fertility Clinic, Dublin.
Dr. Subhash Kohli, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Retired, Kildare
Dr. John Monaghan, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Portiuncula Hospital, Co. Galway.
Dr. Vida Naciene, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Family Med Clinic, Clontarf, Dublin.
Dr. Eileen Reilly, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Galway Clinic, Galway.
Dr. Shobha Singh, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Midland Regional Hospital, Portlaoise.
Dr. Cyril Thornton, Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist, Cork Clinic, Cork.

I'm not sure how many others on that list are operating in Ireland, but it's clearly substantial from that brief glance.

The post stated that there were 30 active registered doctors in Ireland from a list of 225 OBYNs. I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion he ignored the list you provided. They fall under the 30 he mentioned.

PopePalpatine

Black Menorca wrote: »

Gotta love the Dublin Declaration.

I find it hard to love something that's so full of crap.

conorh91

SW wrote: »

The post stated that there were 30 active registered doctors in Ireland from a list of 225 OBYNs.

OK well there are nowhere near that many of consultant obstetricians and gynecologists in Ireland. I think there are actually less than 100 consultant obstetricians and gynecologists registered in Ireland, so it's no surprise they're not all Irish.

It is clear that a substantial number of Irish experts in obstetrics and gynecology are in agreement that abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

It isn't clear what the rest of them think because it is impossible to infer anything from their silence, but I don't see how such a substantial proportion of experts operating in Irish hospitals can be dismissed.

PopePalpatine

Here's a bit more background info. Surprise, surprise, Youth Defence's Eoghan de Faoite organised it. :rolleyes: