Fluoride update re IQ

jh79 · 17-06-2015 12:04pm

weisses wrote: »

It is not

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15153698

http://fluoridealert.org/issues/caries/topical_systemic/

Fluoridation is systemic

Systemic means ingested, fluoridation is a primary source of ingested fluoride other sources would include food, mouthwash and teeth brushing (whatever is swallowed). The ingested fluoride has no effect on dental health once you are an adult

The primary source of topical is teeth brushing other sources include water fluoridation , mouthwash and food. The fluoride which comes in contact with your teeth benefits your dental health.

A person who brushed their teeth with fluoridated water and drinks fluoridated water has more fluoride in their mouth ie topical effect.

I don't see where the confusion is coming from.

Topical means it occurs on surface of the teeth, fluoridated water comes in contact with the surface of your teeth.

jh79 · 17-06-2015 12:25pm

weisses wrote: »

It is not

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15153698

Fluoridation is systemic

Doesn't support your argument, I'm not saying the ingested fluoride is of any benefit, it is the small amount left behind in your saliva that is of benefit.

jh79 · 17-06-2015 12:30pm

jh79 wrote: »

1

This explains it

"Systemic fluorides are those that are ingested into the body and become incorporated into forming tooth structures.4 Systemic fluorides when ingested during tooth development are deposited to some extent throughout the tooth surface. However, the actual mechanism of action of systemic fluorides is from the topical protection as the fluoride present in saliva, which continually bathes the teeth, provides a constant source that is also incorporated into plaque and facilitates remineralization.5 Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation. Other sources include dietary supplements (tablets, drops or lozenges) and fluoride present in food and beverages."

http://www.allianceforacavityfreefuture.org/en/us/technologies/systemic-fluorides#.VYCWVsk1jqC

Are you honestly suggesting that water you drink somehow makes it into your stomach without coming into contact with your teeth??

weisses · 17-06-2015 12:35pm

jh79 wrote: »

Systemic means ingested, fluoridation is a primary source of ingested fluoride other sources would include food, mouthwash and teeth brushing (whatever is swallowed). The ingested fluoride has no effect on dental health once you are an adult

The primary source of topical is teeth brushing other sources include water fluoridation , mouthwash and food. The fluoride which comes in contact with your teeth benefits your dental health.

A person who brushed their teeth with fluoridated water and drinks fluoridated water has more fluoride in their mouth ie topical effect.

I don't see where the confusion is coming from.

Topical means it occurs on surface of the teeth, fluoridated water comes in contact with the surface of your teeth.

then Ill ask again

So water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth has erupted (SCHER) .... right ?

jh79 · 17-06-2015 12:37pm

weisses wrote: »

then Ill ask again

So water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth has erupted (SCHER) .... right ?

Yes and the significance of this is??

weisses · 17-06-2015 12:58pm

jh79 wrote: »

Yes and the significance of this is??

Well for starters the report that was presented quoted the SCHER report numerous times

But one of the conclusions of the SCHER report was that water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth have erupted ... So why continue mass fluoridation when the effects are questionable ?

It also proves the other point of all the countries that don't fluoridate having similar and better dental health compared to Ireland

jh79 · 17-06-2015 1:26pm

weisses wrote: »

Well for starters the report that was presented quoted the SCHER report numerous times

But one of the conclusions of the SCHER report was that water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth have erupted ... So why continue mass fluoridation when the effects are questionable ?

It also proves the other point of all the countries that don't fluoridate having similar and better dental health compared to Ireland

The systemic effects are questionable once teeth are formed.

The topical effects are not in question and water fluoridation contributes to this and this effect is seen in the form of reduced cariers.

The systemic (ingested) fluoride is just wasted but is not doing any harm as far as we can tell.

jh79 · 17-06-2015 1:37pm

Your confusing topical / systemic methods of delivery with topical / systemic mechanism of action.

Water fluoridation is a systemic delivery method that was once thought to have both a topical / systemic mechanism of action now it is believed to have only a topical mechanism of action once adult teeth have formed.

weisses · 17-06-2015 2:34pm

jh79 wrote: »

Your confusing topical / systemic methods of delivery with topical / systemic mechanism of action.

Water fluoridation is a systemic delivery method that was once thought to have both a topical / systemic mechanism of action now it is believed to have only a topical mechanism of action.

so if SCHER states The effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride is questionable.. what are they referring to exactly ?

jh79 · 17-06-2015 3:08pm

weisses wrote: »

so if SCHER states The effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride is questionable.. what are they referring to exactly ?

Once you swallow water the fluoride in that portion is of no benefit ie ingested fluoride serves no purpose once adult teeth have erupted.

It is because of its contribution to the topical effect (raised fluoride in saliva) that fluoridation is effective.

weisses · 17-06-2015 3:27pm

jh79 wrote: »

Once you swallow water the fluoride in that portion is of no benefit ie ingested fluoride serves no purpose once adult teeth have erupted.

It is because of its contribution to the topical effect (raised fluoride in saliva) that fluoridation is effective.

That is not an answer to my simple question

jh79 · 17-06-2015 4:04pm

weisses wrote: »

That is not an answer to my simple question

Ingesting fluoride is of no benefit to an adult is the simple answer.

The above has no bearing on the effectiveness of fluoridation because it has a topical mechanism of action.

How you think this is a justification for ending fluoridation I don't know.

jh79 · 17-06-2015 4:20pm

weisses wrote: »

That is not an answer to my simple question

Fluoride Alert et al like people to get confused on this for obvious reasons, a systemic delivery method can have a topical mechanism of action. You can't consume food and beverages without it touching your teeth!

Unless you can show that water fluoridation doesn't contribute to the topical mechanism of action your argument falls on its face.

SCHER report just restates the now accepted theory that once adult teeth are formed the mechanism of action of systemic delivery systems such as water fluoridation are solely topical. Maybe it is worded badly but common sense should prevail in this case. You can't drink without it touching your teeth!

Bottom line cariers are reduced and SCHER does not disagree with this and nobody disagrees with SCHER when it says systemic is of no benefit once adult teeth are formed.

No matter what way you try and spin it there is no justification for ending fluoridation here.

A few simple questions for you;

A) Is mouthwash a systemic or topical delivery system?

If you swallow mouthwash is it a topical or systemic delivery system?

C) Is the mechanism of action of mouth wash systemic or topical and is it the same mechanism in A and B?

weisses · 17-06-2015 7:16pm

jh79 wrote: »

Fluoride Alert et al like people to get confused on this for obvious reasons, a systemic delivery method can have a topical mechanism of action. You can't consume food and beverages without it touching your teeth!

Unless you can show that water fluoridation doesn't contribute to the topical mechanism of action your argument falls on its face.

SCHER report just restates the now accepted theory that once adult teeth are formed the mechanism of action of systemic delivery systems such as water fluoridation are solely topical. Maybe it is worded badly but common sense should prevail in this case. You can't drink without it touching your teeth!

Bottom line cariers are reduced and SCHER does not disagree with this and nobody disagrees with SCHER when it says systemic is of no benefit once adult teeth are formed.

No matter what way you try and spin it there is no justification for ending fluoridation here.

A few simple questions for you;

A) Is mouthwash a systemic or topical delivery system?

If you swallow mouthwash is it a topical or systemic delivery system?

C) Is the mechanism of action of mouth wash systemic or topical and is it the same mechanism in A and B?

Why is it so difficult to answer one simple question ??

If SCHER states The effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride is questionable.. what are they referring to exactly ?

jh79 · 17-06-2015 7:16pm

weisses wrote: »

Why is it so difficult to answer one simple question ??

If SCHER states The effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride is questionable.. what are they referring to exactly ?

Ingesting fluoride is of no benefit

weisses · 17-06-2015 7:19pm

jh79 wrote: »

Ingesting fluoride is of no benefit

And thus the best thing they came up with is to put it in our drinking water ..terrific

jh79 · 17-06-2015 7:22pm

weisses wrote: »

And thus the best thing they came up with is to put it in our drinking water ..terrific

But the ingested fluoride is harmless and that that remains in the saliva is beneficial.

"Water fluoridation as well as topical fluoride applications, e.g. fluoridated toothpaste or
varnish, appears to prevent caries, primarily on permanent dentition, but topical
application is the more efficient measure."

SCHER report

weisses · 17-06-2015 8:57pm

jh79 wrote: »

But the ingested fluoride is harmless and that that remains in the saliva is beneficial.

"Water fluoridation as well as topical fluoride applications, e.g. fluoridated toothpaste or
varnish, appears to prevent caries, primarily on permanent dentition, but topical
application is the more efficient measure."

SCHER report

Also SCHER

Systemic exposure to fluoride through drinking water is associated with an increased risk
of dental and bone fluorosis in a dose-response manner without a detectable threshold.
Limited evidence from epidemiological studies points towards other adverse health
effects following systemic fluoride exposure, e.g. carcinogenicity, developmental
neurotoxicity and reproductive toxicity

jh79 · 17-06-2015 9:12pm

weisses wrote: »

Also SCHER

Read pg 39

weisses · 18-06-2015 7:24am

jh79 wrote: »

Read pg 39

I did

And page 30

The few studies of water fluoridation
discontinuation do not suggest significant increases in dental caries.

And page 29

Figure 2 indicates that independent of the fluoridation policies across the EU Member
States, there has been a consistent decline over time in tooth decay in 12 year old
children from the mid-1970s, regardless of whether drinking water, milk or salt are
fluoridated

jh79 · 18-06-2015 8:13am

weisses wrote: »

I did

And page 30

And page 29

Overall conclusion is that it is effective and safe.

Again you are confusing effectiveness with necessity.

Unless you can show it is not necessary in Ireland what you are quoting is pointless. Continually pointing out that Ireland hasn't the best dental health in Europe isn't helping your argument.

jh79 · 18-06-2015 8:29am

weisses wrote: »

I did

And page 30

And page 29

The SCHER report highlights all studies in this area, highlighting them doesn't validate them.

After reading all of these studies the people behind the SCHER report concluded that fluoridation was safe and effective.

jh79 · 18-06-2015 8:32am

weisses wrote: »

Also SCHER

Systemic exposure to fluoride through drinking water is associated with an increased risk
of dental and bone fluorosis in a dose-response manner without a detectable threshold.
Limited evidence from epidemiological studies points towards other adverse health
effects following systemic fluoride exposure, e.g. carcinogenicity, developmental
neurotoxicity and reproductive toxicity

What was the SHER reports conclusion based on these pieces of research??

weisses · 18-06-2015 8:36am

jh79 wrote: »

The SCHER report highlights all studies in this area, highlighting them doesn't validate them.

So if it highlights the positive effects of fluoridation it doesn't really validate them either then ?

weisses · 18-06-2015 8:45am

jh79 wrote: »

Systemic exposure to fluoride through drinking water is associated with an increased risk
of dental and bone fluorosis in a dose-response manner without a detectable threshold.
Limited evidence from epidemiological studies points towards other adverse health
effects following systemic fluoride exposure, e.g. carcinogenicity, developmental
neurotoxicity and reproductive toxicity

What was the SHER reports conclusion based on these pieces of research??

the application of the general rules of
the weight-of-evidence approach indicates that these observations cannot be
unequivocally substantiated.

There was evidence supporting it but SCHER found it was not enough ... does it rule out the conclusions ...I think not

jh79 · 18-06-2015 10:34am

weisses wrote: »

the application of the general rules of
the weight-of-evidence approach indicates that these observations cannot be
unequivocally substantiated.

There was evidence supporting it but SCHER found it was not enough ... does it rule out the conclusions ...I think not

Can't rule anything out but it doesn't come even close to being a justification for ending fluoridation.

jh79 · 18-06-2015 10:36am

weisses wrote: »

So if it highlights the positive effects of fluoridation it doesn't really validate them either then ?

But the conclusion does.

weisses · 18-06-2015 10:56am

jh79 wrote: »

But the conclusion does.

That also goes for the negative findings regarding fluoridation that where expressed in the report

jh79 · 18-06-2015 11:45am

weisses wrote: »

That also goes for the negative findings regarding fluoridation that where expressed in the report

How do you mean , the negative findings were dismissed?

The occurrence of endemic skeletal fluorosis has not been reported in the EU general
population.

There is not sufficient evidence linking fluoride in the drinking water to the development
of osteosarcoma.

Fluoride intake from drinking water at the level occurring in the EU does not appear to
hamper children’s neurodevelopment and IQ levels.

Human studies do not suggest adverse thyroid effects at realistic human exposures to
fluoride.

There is no new evidence from human studies indicating that fluoride in drinking water
influences male and female reproductive capacity.

How does this report help your cause in any way?

weisses · 18-06-2015 11:53am

jh79 wrote: »

How do you mean , the negative findings were dismissed?

The occurrence of endemic skeletal fluorosis has not been reported in the EU general
population.

There is not sufficient evidence linking fluoride in the drinking water to the development
of osteosarcoma.

Fluoride intake from drinking water at the level occurring in the EU does not appear to
hamper children’s neurodevelopment and IQ levels.

Human studies do not suggest adverse thyroid effects at realistic human exposures to
fluoride.

There is no new evidence from human studies indicating that fluoride in drinking water
influences male and female reproductive capacity.

How does this report help your cause in any way?

The points I raised earlier ??

Fluoride update re IQ

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