Fluoride update re IQ

weisses

SpaceSasqwatch wrote: »

That website uses data provided by dr paul connett to make that graph.He's a well known flouride scaremonger/charlatan so can be safely ignored for being a quack.

That graph is referring to percentage of population that receives fluoridated water when you look at the numbers .... Only Spain should read 10 percent

confusing and sloppy

EoghanIRL

miss tickle wrote: »

Consumption of refined carbohydrates is a moot point. Most western countries have a large consumption of refined carbohydrates, have zero additional fluoride, and still have comparable or better dental outcome. But no matter, with the current privatization of Irish water, it may now possible to approach the European court of human rights, and demand that our water, which we will be purchasing, is not contaminated with additional fluoride.

A recent study revealed that 24pc of Irish adults skip brushing their teeth at least one morning a week. This is in the news recently carried out by oral b. There are lots of statistics out there for the percentage of adults and children who don't brush their teeth in Ireland.
It is important that these people get flouride from another source. Refined carbohydrates isn't a moot point in this case and I fail to see how it is a moot point in general seeing as how it is known that Irish children consume more sugary sweets than children in other countries . Getting flouride from drinking water would definitely help their oral health as it would help stop the early stages of the decay process such as enamel demineralization.

For flourosis to occur or the more serious collagen defects to occur you need levels of flouride higher than what we have in our water supply.0.7ppm is deemed safe. You take much more of a risk drinking well water from your own source as some areas in Ireland do have high flouride levels.

It is nice to think that flouride in the water is a conspiracy. However if you understand what flouride at these levels actually does then you would see how the tinfoil hat brigade skeptics are actually making the situation worse by putting doubts in people's heads.

Torakx

That's only 24%, according to a toothbrush company.
I prefer not to medicate everyone for the sake of a minority.
I'd actually prefer not to medicate a minority for the sake of a majority either! it's ludicrous. There is another option called education.

There is one possible issue I haven't had cleared up yet.
What prevents absorbtion of flouride when it is in someones mouth in the form of toothpaste?
Everything else gets absorbed into the blood through the mouth. I am curious if we can be sure Flouride is not the same and why?

Cianmcliam

Torakx wrote: »

That's only 24%, according to a toothbrush company.
I prefer not to medicate everyone for the sake of a minority.
I'd actually prefer not to medicate a minority for the sake of a majority either! it's ludicrous. There is another option called education.

Ireland ranks as worst for children eating the kinds of sticky, sugary foods that cause decay, much higher than most EU countries. We are also among the worst for brushing habits. If this were to change in the future then we could rethink adding fluoride.

There is one possible issue I haven't had cleared up yet.
What prevents absorbtion of flouride when it is in someones mouth in the form of toothpaste?
Everything else gets absorbed into the blood through the mouth. I am curious if we can be sure Flouride is not the same and why?

Very little gets absorbed while in the mouth, it is broken down and enzymes prepare it for the stomach but most toothpaste is spat and rinsed out. Fluoride in water circulates in the system and is then present in your saliva, protecting your teeth 24 hours a day.

jh79

http://www.timesofisrael.com/deputy-health-minister-moves-to-restore-water-fluoridation/

Looks like fluoridation is to be reinstated in Israel.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

http://www.timesofisrael.com/deputy-health-minister-moves-to-restore-water-fluoridation/

Looks like fluoridation is to be reinstated in Israel.

Fluoride is commonly added to national water supplies by governments throughout the world in order to prevent tooth decay, but critics say overconsumption of the invisible, odorless, tasteless gas is a health hazard.

Dont you just love the spin ....There is only ONE country doing it nationally ...Correct me if I'm wrong

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Dont you just love the spin ....There is only ONE country doing it nationally ...Correct me if I'm wrong

I don't think it is spin, just the easiest way to say that different countries have water fluoridation programs in place.

weisses

But only one in the whole world on a national level right ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

But only one in the whole world on a national level right ?

I dunno, possibly but i think your being a bit pedantic. In my opinion all the article is saying is that various countries have water fluoridation programs in place. I don't believe they are trying to mislead people.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

I dunno, possibly but i think your being a bit pedantic. In my opinion all the article is saying is that various countries have water fluoridation programs in place. I don't believe they are trying to mislead people.

Not pedantic .... Fact

Huge difference stating national when it should read local supply,

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Not pedantic .... Fact

Huge difference stating national when it should read local supply,

In the context of the article it is not significant.

Various countries have water fluoridation programs and Israel happens to be reinstating theirs that's all the article is saying.

jh79

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0602/705305-fluoride/

Is this the report the minister promised the various councils that voted to end fluoridation? I thought they back tracked on that promise?

Anyways they found no evidence of negative effects according to rte.

Can't seem to find the report but came across this link in which Alex White TD addressed questions from Hot Press / GAF.

http://www.fluoridesandhealth.ie/download/pdf/mr_alex_white_td_minister_of_state_answers_questions_from_hot_press_april_2013.pdf

jh79

The full report is available here

http://www.hrb.ie/publications/

Treora

jh79 wrote: »

The full report is available here

http://www.hrb.ie/publications/

Class: 2+ years & 2.5k posts (90% on fluoride). Cannot tell if it is brain trauma or a vested interest (sockpuppet) pay cheque that keeps you going. But keep howl'n at the wind.

Here is something to keep you going for the next 500 posts - no definited proof of harm does not mean definitive proof of benefit nor definitive proof of harmlessness.

Rant on jh79

jh79

Treora wrote: »

Class: 2+ years & 2.5k posts (90% on fluoride). Cannot tell if it is brain trauma or a vested interest (sockpuppet) pay cheque that keeps you going. But keep howl'n at the wind.

Here is something to keep you going for the next 500 posts - no definited proof of harm does not mean definitive proof of benefit nor definitive proof of harmlessness.

Rant on jh79

Welcome back,

The dental benefits of fluoridation are universally accepted so were left out of the report.

You can't prove that a substance is harmless (what would you observe in such an experiment?) you can only show at what point it causes adverse effects if at all.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

The dental benefits of fluoridation are universally accepted so were left out of the report.

As the report is more then happy enough to use the SCHER report as a refference why did they not act upon one of their conclusions ?

SCHER

Water fluoridation as well as topical fluoride applications (e.g. fluoridated toothpaste or
Fluoride and fluoridating agents of drinking water
32
varnish) appears to prevent caries, primarily on permanent dentition. No obvious
advantage appears in favour of water fluoridation compared with topical prevention. The
effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source is questionable
once the permanent teeth have erupted.
SCHER agrees that topical application of fluoride is most effective in preventing tooth
decay. Topical fluoride sustains the fluoride levels in the oral cavity and helps to prevent
caries, with reduced systemic availability. The efficacy of population-based policies, e.g.
drinking water, milk or salt fluoridation, as regards the reduction of oral-health social
disparities, remains insufficiently substantiated.

Overheal

Treora wrote: »

Class: 2+ years & 2.5k posts (90% on fluoride). Cannot tell if it is brain trauma or a vested interest (sockpuppet) pay cheque that keeps you going. But keep howl'n at the wind.

Here is something to keep you going for the next 500 posts - no definited proof of harm does not mean definitive proof of benefit nor definitive proof of harmlessness.

Rant on jh79

367 posts, over 13 years, mostly in CT, with a handful of infractions warning you about your behavior, has done nothing to curb your terrible forum manners. Take a ban and figure that out yeah?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

As the report is more then happy enough to use the SCHER report as a refference why did they not act upon one of their conclusions ?

SCHER

Not sure what you mean, they should promote topical application more?

In fairness i think everyone knows you should brush twice a day and floss etc . I know i could do better and fluoridation helps make up for my shortcomings.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Not sure what you mean, they should promote topical application more?

No the fact that they find any continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source questionable

Is water fluoridation a form of continued systemic exposure ?

jh79

1

weisses wrote: »

No the fact that they find any continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source questionable

Is water fluoridation a form of continued systemic exposure ?

This explains it

"Systemic fluorides are those that are ingested into the body and become incorporated into forming tooth structures.4 Systemic fluorides when ingested during tooth development are deposited to some extent throughout the tooth surface. However, the actual mechanism of action of systemic fluorides is from the topical protection as the fluoride present in saliva, which continually bathes the teeth, provides a constant source that is also incorporated into plaque and facilitates remineralization.5 Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation. Other sources include dietary supplements (tablets, drops or lozenges) and fluoride present in food and beverages."

http://www.allianceforacavityfreefuture.org/en/us/technologies/systemic-fluorides#.VYCWVsk1jqC

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

1

This explains it

"Systemic fluorides are those that are ingested into the body and become incorporated into forming tooth structures.4 Systemic fluorides when ingested during tooth development are deposited to some extent throughout the tooth surface. However, the actual mechanism of action of systemic fluorides is from the topical protection as the fluoride present in saliva, which continually bathes the teeth, provides a constant source that is also incorporated into plaque and facilitates remineralization.5 Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation. Other sources include dietary supplements (tablets, drops or lozenges) and fluoride present in food and beverages."

http://www.allianceforacavityfreefuture.org/en/us/technologies/systemic-fluorides#.VYCWVsk1jqC

So the bolded part would apply to Ireland as well and according to SCHER the effects are questionable

The
effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source is questionable
once the permanent teeth have erupted.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

So the bolded part would apply to Ireland as well and according to SCHER the effects are questionable

Ingesting (systemic) fluoride only has an effect on teeth that are forming. For an adult the benefits of fluoridation come from its topical mechanism of action ie its contribution to fluoride levels in saliva.

"SCHER agrees that topical application of fluoride is most effective in preventing tooth decay"

Fluoridation is included in the above, your saliva is in constant contact with your teeth and because of water fluoridation your fluoride levels in saliva are raised.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Ingesting (systemic) fluoride only has an effect on teeth that are forming. For an adult the benefits of fluoridation come from its topical mechanism of action ie its contribution to fluoride levels in saliva.

"SCHER agrees that topical application of fluoride is most effective in preventing tooth decay"

Fluoridation is included in the above, your saliva is in constant contact with your teeth and because of water fluoridation your fluoride levels in saliva are raised.

No Sorry JH you are missing the point

You stated/quoted yourself that Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation .. That can be copied to the Irish situation so we are left with the SCHER statement stating :The
effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source is questionable
once the permanent teeth have erupted

So water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth has erupted .... right ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

No Sorry JH you are missing the point

You stated/quoted yourself that Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation .. That can be copied to the Irish situation so we are left with the SCHER statement stating :The
effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source is questionable
once the permanent teeth have erupted

So water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth has erupted .... right ?

"Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation"

The point your missing is that fluoridation is not exclusively systemic it is just the primary source.

Topical is not exclusively teeth brushing it also includes fluoridation.

So when you drink 0.7mg / L fluoride a % of that is systemic (ingested) and is essentially wasted so to speak and a smaller % elevates fluoride levels in saliva and has a topical mechanism of action. End result is less cariers.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

"Today the primary source of systemic fluoride in the U.S. is water fluoridation"

The point your missing is that fluoridation is not exclusively systemic it is just the primary source.

I'll ask again

So water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth has erupted .... right ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I'll ask again

So water fluoridation is a systemic exposure and the effects are questionable once the permanent teeth has erupted .... right ?

Its effects, specifically in this context of systemic exposure, are questionable.

Its overall effect is not questionable.

What's your point we know the end result is less cavities?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Its effects, specifically in this context of systemic exposure, are questionable.

Its overall effect is not questionable.

What's your point we know the end result is less cavities?

That is not in the SCHER report .. You just add in the "context" yourself

jh79 wrote: »

The point your missing is that fluoridation is not exclusively systemic it is just the primary source.

How is fluoridation not exclusively systemic ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

That is not in the SCHER report .. You just add in the "context" yourself



How is fluoridation not exclusively systemic ?

it goes without saying the context is systemic as the overall conclusion of SCHER was positive.

"SCHER agrees that topical application of fluoride is most effective in preventing tooth decay"

Fluoridation is a form of topical application because it elevates fluoride levels in saliva and your saliva is in contact with your teeth. You can't drink water or eat food without it coming in contact with your teeth.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

it goes without saying the context is systemic as the overall conclusion of SCHER was positive.

I don't know if you deliberately try to avoid the point but Ill try again

SCHER

The effect of continued systemic exposure of fluoride from whatever source is questionable
once the permanent teeth have erupted.

How is fluoridation not exclusively systemic ?

Its directly from the report !!!

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Fluoridation is a form of topical application because it elevates fluoride levels in saliva and your saliva is in contact with your teeth. You can't drink water or eat food without it coming in contact with your teeth.

It is not

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15153698

http://fluoridealert.org/issues/caries/topical_systemic/

Fluoridation is systemic