Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.

8th Amendment

1…3233353738…65

Comments

  • #1022
    Milana Sticky Klutz
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Milana Sticky Klutz


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    I'm sorry to hear about your miscarriage. An experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. While I may disagree with your points, please don't take that as any disrespect or underappreciation of the situation.

    But, if it is not a baby, why therefore is it so upsetting for parents when a miscarriage occurs?

    Have you never been offered something you wanted only for it subsequently no longer be available?

    Or believe that you were going to get something only for it not to materialize?


  • #1023
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    Because it was potentially a baby. When something you want has the potential to happen and that potential is lost, that's upsetting. You can't possibly not understand that.

    But it existed for a while, and then died.
    A small difference, but it explains the differing mindset between pro life and pro choice people.


  • #1024
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Ok, lets disregard my statement that it wouldnt happen to me. Lets assume for an instance that it did. Lets also assume notionally that my wife decided she was now pro choice.

    It would not be acceptable behavior to physically force her. I wouldnt do that. However if I thought that she was at risk of ending a child's life I woudl notify the authorities and do whatever would be in my power to stop her from doing so.

    OK, thank you for that.

    So if we can dig a little deeper (I'm not trying to catch you out, I just genuinely cannot understand your views and am trying to work out exactly what the logic is), why would it not be acceptable to physically force her, since you would presumably have no such qualms if she were trying to kill one of your born children?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1025
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    But it existed for a while, and then died.
    A small difference, but it explains the differing mindset between pro life and pro choice people.

    It really doesn't. Pro-choice people don't claim that fetuses don't exist.


  • #1026
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have you never been offered something you wanted only for it subsequently no longer be available?

    Or believe that you were going to get something only for it not to materialize?

    If you plant an acorn, and then it subsequently dies after the first shoots occur, is that potential or is that a young tree?


  • Advertisement
  • #1027
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    It really doesn't. Pro-choice people don't claim that fetuses don't exist.
    No but they claim babies are not babies


  • #1028
    Milana Sticky Klutz
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Milana Sticky Klutz


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    If you plant an acorn, and then it subsequently dies after the first shoots occur, is that potential or is that a young tree?

    What if it dies before the first shoots occur?


  • #1029
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Really people still think this is good to keep? Even after "pro-life" crap causing the death of Savita Halapenavar and that nightmare situation where a slowly decaying corpse was being treated as an incubator.


    Some peoples willingness to stick out from the crowd defies logic.


  • #1030
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    OK, thank you for that.

    So if we can dig a little deeper (I'm not trying to catch you out, I just genuinely cannot understand your views and am trying to work out exactly what the logic is), why would it not be acceptable to physically force her, since you would presumably have no such qualms if she were trying to kill one of your born children?

    Because of a number of reasons. I don't believe that a man using physical force toward a woman is ever acceptable unless there are severe severe mitigating circumstances.

    I'll qualify my statement and say the only time I would use physical force would be if she was holding an abortion tablet in her hand and was moving it toward her mouth. That would only be after attempting reasoning with her.


  • #1031
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    No but they claim babies are not babies

    No, they state that fetuses are not babies. It's not really a claim so much as a medical fact.


  • Advertisement
  • #1032
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What if it dies before the first shoots occur?
    After the roots have sprouted and the shoots have grown underground but not cracked the surface? If you dig it up then, you will see it is still a tree.
    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    Really people still think this is good to keep? Even after "pro-life" crap causing the death of Savita Halapenavar and that nightmare situation where a slowly decaying corpse was being treated as an incubator.


    Some peoples willingness to stick out from the crowd defies logic.
    Pro life "crap" (rather insulting) did not cause the death of Savita.
    Don't know how many times I have to hear that. Poor hospital standards killed her.


  • #1033
    inocybe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    I'm sorry to hear about your miscarriage. An experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. While I may disagree with your points, please don't take that as any disrespect or underappreciation of the situation.

    But, if it is not a baby, why therefore is it so upsetting for parents when a miscarriage occurs?

    I won't generalise. I can only tell you that for me the upset was almost entirely focussed on the loss of what could have been. What I lost was my future baby, and that was really really sad, but it was not grief like you would feel if a born child had died. In fact it was a trigger for me to become actively pro-choice, that and actually going through a full term pregnancy.
    Being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term against your wishes would be my choice of an experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.


  • #1034
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    No, they state that fetuses are not babies. It's not really a claim so much as a medical fact.

    But, I say again, what does a fetus grow into?


  • #1035
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    After the roots have sprouted and the shoots have grown underground but not cracked the surface? If you dig it up then, you will see it is still a tree.


    Pro life "crap" (rather insulting) did not cause the death of Savita.
    Don't know how many times I have to hear that. Poor hospital standards killed her.
    Well thats just plain wrong the prevention of the termination led to her death.
    What about the other scenario. Whats your excuse there?


  • #1036
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    But, I say again, what does a fetus grow into?

    A baby. What's your point?


  • #1037
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    Well thats just plain wrong the prevention of the termination led to her death.
    What about the other scenario. Whats your excuse there?

    People like you sometimes make me wish i was pro choice!


  • #1038
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Because of a number of reasons. I don't believe that a man using physical force toward a woman is ever acceptable unless there are severe severe mitigating circumstances.

    I'll qualify my statement and say the only time I would use physical force would be if she was holding an abortion tablet in her hand and was moving it toward her mouth. That would only be after attempting reasoning with her.
    Attempted murder presumably being the most mitigating of all circumstances?

    SO you knock the abortion tablet out of her hand but she scrabbles around and finds it. What then?

    Thing is, either you decide that force is acceptable (because abortion is murder and because force was going to be used on Miss Y and so could be in another case in the future) or you say that force isn't acceptable against a woman who wants to abort because abortion is not the same as killing a person.

    You can't really have it both ways.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1039
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    A baby. What's your point?
    Don't kill it. That's my point.
    What's yours?


  • #1040
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Murder presumably being one?

    SO you knock the abortion tablet out of her hand but she scrabbles around and finds it. What then?

    Thing is, either you decide that force is acceptable (because abortion is murder and because force was going to be used on Miss Y and so could be in another case in the future) or you say that force isn't acceptable against a woman who wants to abort because abortion is not the same as killing a person.

    You can't really have it both ways.
    Force is acceptable to prevent worse acts (abortion/murder being one of them for instance)

    As proven by the miss Y case, the state agrees with me.


  • #1041
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Don't kill it. That's my point.
    What's yours?

    I don't plan on killing any babies. We're talking about fetuses though, which is different no matter how much you pretend otherwise.


  • Advertisement
  • #1042
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    People like you sometimes make me wish i was pro choice!

    Maybe you can't remember. I'll ask again. What about when this precious law meant a corpse was forcibly kept alive to act as an incubator?


  • #1043
    Milana Sticky Klutz
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Milana Sticky Klutz


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    But, I say again, what does a fetus grow into?

    Eventually, a corpse.


  • #1044
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    I don't plan on killing any babies. We're talking about fetuses though, which is different no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

    Killing a fetus means you've ended the life of a baby.
    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    Maybe you can't remember. I'll ask again. What about when this precious law meant a corpse was forcibly kept alive to act as an incubator?

    I can remember perfectly.
    When the choice is one death or two, which is better?


  • #1045
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Eventually, a corpse.
    But a lot slower generally.


  • #1046
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Killing a fetus means you've ended the life of a baby.



    I can remember perfectly.
    When the choice is one death or two, which is better?
    So you see no issue with a decaying corpse acting as an incubator? That does say quite a lot about you.


  • #1047
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Killing a fetus means you've ended the life of a baby.

    No, it means you've prevented the life of a baby from beginning. You can't end something before it starts.


  • #1048
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    But a lot slower generally.

    You havent heard of stillborns in your little bubble no?


  • #1049
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    So you see no issue with a decaying corpse acting as an incubator? That does say quite a lot about you.
    Decaying? It was on life support, hardly decaying.
    Kev W wrote: »
    No, it means you've prevented the life of a baby from beginning. You can't end something before it starts.

    Heartbeat begins after a few weeks. If life ends when the heart stops why does it not begin when it starts?
    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    You havent heard of stillborns in your little bubble no?
    Generally is a simple word to understand.;)


  • #1050
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Force is acceptable to prevent worse acts (abortion/murder being one of them for instance)

    As proven by the miss Y case, the state agrees with me.
    So you would force your wife, physically if necessary, to carry a rapist's fetus to term and pretend that it was yours? And then to bring it up, seeing as everyone else thought it was yours.

    Personally I think that could lead her to a nervous breakdown, leaving you to bring up this unwanted child and your other children, but perhaps that would be ok for you.

    Can you really not imagine that this might be too much of a psychological burden to expect a woman to bear against her will? That's the part I can't get over - that you don't see that choosing to do this is one thing, but a law (and/or a partner) who forces the raped woman to do it is quite another.

    But you've been perfectly clear, so I suggest we agree to differ, and leave it at that.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Advertisement
  • #1051
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Heartbeat begins after a few weeks. If life ends when the heart stops why does it not begin when it starts?

    Because that's not how cause and effect works.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement