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8th Amendment

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Comments

  • #992
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with control. Why is the notion of allowing a woman to end the life of an unborn child - HER own unborn child - not repulsive to you people?

    Once again, since it seems not to be sinking in - Fetus, not child.

    And it has everything to do with control. You want women's bodily autonomy taken away from them.


  • #993
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭swampgas


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    I still stand by my point that a bit of suffering on behalf of the mother is better than denying the unborn child a chance at a life. It's obviously not ideal - but in an ideal world noone would be raped so this wouldnt occur.

    That's easy for you to say, isn't it. You're not the pregnant raped woman.

    Tell me, why are you so against letting women decide for themselves? Are you so determined that your fairly hard-line approach isn't just good enough for you, it must be good enough for everyone else as well?

    What exactly would it cost you to allow other people the right to decide for themselves how such a pregnancy should be handled? Remember these other people are the ones that have to live with the consequences. Not you.


  • #994
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    swampgas wrote: »
    Remember these other people are the ones that have to live with the consequences. Not you.

    Remember also, to be fair, that one of the consequences is being hectored about being a "murderer" by the I-don't-do-empathy crowd.


  • #995
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Or let's say your wife was assaulted by an unknown stranger one day. Would you be prepared to force your wife to continue the rapist's pregnancy and give birth to her rapist's child - and how far would you go to force her to do so?

    I'd like to see this answered.


  • #996
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why is the notion of forcing a woman - or a child, for that matter - to remain pregnant against her will not repulsive to you?
    Because it is less unwelcome than ending a potential life.
    swampgas wrote: »
    That's easy for you to say, isn't it. You're not the pregnant raped woman.

    Tell me, why are you so against letting women decide for themselves? Are you so determined that your fairly hard-line approach isn't just good enough for you, it must be good enough for everyone else as well?

    What exactly would it cost you to allow other people the right to decide for themselves how such a pregnancy should be handled? Remember these other people are the ones that have to live with the consequences. Not you.
    It would not cost anything because it should not happen.
    Similarly to how we do not allow murders at any cost.


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  • #997
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Your question was related to Miss Y.

    If there was no alternative then yes. No excuse should allow a parent to kill/terminate/abort their own child. Ending the pregnancy when the child stands a chance outside the womb (like what happened in the miss Y case) would be acceptable.
    OK, so the second part of my question (which you may not have seen)
    - if your wife was raped and found herself pregnant, and wanted an abortion - would you really be prepared to force her to give birth to her rapist's baby?

    Only I'm married, and if I were pregnant through rape and didn't want to abort, I think that could cause problems between my husband and myself, not the other way around.
    I just can't see my husband - or any man - being happy to walk around the town with a pregnant wife and explain to people that it isnt his baby - never mind him physically forcing me to keep it.

    I'm just not seeing that as a plausible scenario. You?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #998
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    traprunner wrote: »
    I'd like to see this answered.

    It's a difficult situation but I would be forced to do so, yes.
    I'd be wondering what on earth I had done to be confronted by such a scenario but at the end of the day I would hope I would have the conviction of my own beliefs to stand by my wife and raise the child as our own.

    It's a notional question as my wife is not of child bearing age anyway.


  • #999
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    OK, so the second part of my question (which you may not have seen)
    - if your wife was raped and found herself pregnant, and wanted an abortion - would you really be prepared to force her to give birth to her rapist's baby?

    Only I'm married, and if I were pregnant through rape and didn't want to abort, I think that could cause problems between my husband and myself, not the other way around.
    I just can't see my husband - or any man - being happy to walk around the town with a pregnant wife and explain to people that it isnt his baby - never mind him physically forcing me to keep it.

    I'm just not seeing that as a plausible scenario. You?
    Indeed , I did not see that part of the post.
    I have answered above this, and, while I accept it would be difficult. I belive that my wife and I would get through the scenario through our strong faith and our belief that no human should be allowed to end a life regardless of the circumstances.

    We would tell everyone that the child was mine by the way, to address your other point.


  • #1000
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Indeed , I did not see that part of the post.
    I have answered above this, and, while I accept it would be difficult. I belive that my wife and I would get through the scenario through our strong faith and our belief that no human should be allowed to end a life regardless of the circumstances.

    We would tell everyone that the child was mine by the way, to address your other point.
    Right, so you'd force her to keep it as well? I admit, I hadn't actually thought your extremism went that far!

    What if she told you to take a running jump, that she wasn't going to do that? What then? Lock her up? I mean seriously, this is crazy Afghanistan Taliban-type stuff.

    Can you really not see that, or have you been locked for so long yourself into a mindset that it's now just too painful for you to admit is actually evil?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1001
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It would not cost anything because it should not happen.

    Women deciding how to deal with their own pregnancies doesn't cost you anything because it shouldn't happen?

    What are you saying here?


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  • #1002
    Milana Sticky Klutz
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Milana Sticky Klutz


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with control. Why is the notion of allowing a woman to end the life of an unborn child - HER own unborn child - not repulsive to you people?

    Because it's not a whimsical decision, and I trust that if someone has come to the conclusion that an abortion is the best course of action for them, that they've considered the position, using a lot more factors than I could conceivably investigate on their behalf in order to come to the conclusion.

    In my opinion that person is better placed than you or I to decide their best course of action in the vast majority of cases.


  • #1003
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    No voter, do you feel that talking therapy ALONE is enough to 'fix' the trauma caused by rape?

    That is the ONLY thing a pregnant rape victim can have. The medications commonly used for trauma/anxiety/depression damage the foetus.

    So, you feel a rape victim should just get on with it, with no recommended treatment plan (treatment plans for rape victims include medication for 6-9 months as a starting point)? Only therapy?


  • #1004
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    Women deciding how to deal with their own pregnancies doesn't cost you anything because it shouldn't happen?

    What are you saying here?
    No, I'm saying it should cost infinite amounts. It should not be allowed happen.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    Right, so you'd force her to keep it as well? I admit, I hadn't actually thought your extremism went that far!

    What if she told you to take a running jump, that she wasn't going to do that? What then? Lock her up? I mean seriously, this is crazy Afghanistan Taliban-type stuff.

    Can you really not see that, or have you been locked for so long yourself into a mindset that it's now just too painful for you to admit is actually evil?

    There would be no forcing involved. Luckily my wife and I share the same belief system. Indeed we met at a church organised dance, and it's kind of fitting because our whole belief system and life structure has grown together with our combined faith.

    I would not have spent my life married to a woman who would even countenance the idea of ending the life (or potential life) of anything, let alone our unborn child (regardless of who the biological "father" was, as I said earlier it would still be our child, since she was the mother)


  • #1005
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Jenny Thalia wrote: »
    No voter, do you feel that talking therapy ALONE is enough to 'fix' the trauma caused by rape?

    That is the ONLY thing a pregnant rape victim can have. The medications commonly used for trauma/anxiety/depression damage the foetus.

    So, you feel a rape victim should just get on with it, with no recommended treatment plan (treatment plans for rape victims include medication for 6-9 months as a starting point)? Only therapy?

    I think that whatever a psychotherapist would reccomend for the best of both parties involved should be done. Balancing the need of the mother for therapy (medical or counselling or whatever) versus the need of the child to exist.


  • #1006
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    There would be no forcing involved. Luckily my wife and I share the same belief system.

    But there would be forcing involved if the woman in question did not share your belief system. Are you OK with force in such a situation?


  • #1007
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    But there would be forcing involved if the woman in question did not share your belief system. Are you OK with force in such a situation?
    If it is done to prevent the death of a potential child then yes of course I am.
    The same as our legal system is. As proven by the miss Y case.


  • #1008
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    No, I'm saying it should cost infinite amounts. It should not be allowed happen.



    There would be no forcing involved. Luckily my wife and I share the same belief system. Indeed we met at a church organised dance, and it's kind of fitting because our whole belief system and life structure has grown together with our combined faith.

    I would not have spent my life married to a woman who would even countenance the idea of ending the life (or potential life) of anything, let alone our unborn child (regardless of who the biological "father" was, as I said earlier it would still be our child, since she was the mother)

    It's easy to say one thing until a situation arises. Thankfully your wife never had to face the situation mentioned before and now as you said she is no longer of child baring age.


  • #1009
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    traprunner wrote: »
    It's easy to say one thing until a situation arises. Thankfully your wife never had to face the situation mentioned before and now as you said she is no longer of child baring age.
    Like I say, I make no pretense it is not an easy situation for anyone.
    But we can only do what we believe is right in any situation.


  • #1010
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    If it is done to prevent the death of a potential child then yes of course I am.
    The same as our legal system is. As proven by the miss Y case.

    I think that's despicable. Essentially torturing an innocent, already traumatised girl just to satisfy your own belief system is ghoulish.


  • #1011
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Like I say, I make no pretense it is not an easy situation for anyone.
    But we can only do what we believe is right in any situation.

    Or what you and people like you believe is right, regardless of what "we" believe.


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  • #1012
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    No, I'm saying it should cost infinite amounts. It should not be allowed happen.

    There would be no forcing involved. Luckily my wife and I share the same belief system. Indeed we met at a church organised dance, and it's kind of fitting because our whole belief system and life structure has grown together with our combined faith.

    I would not have spent my life married to a woman who would even countenance the idea of ending the life (or potential life) of anything, let alone our unborn child (regardless of who the biological "father" was, as I said earlier it would still be our child, since she was the mother)

    The question wasn't about how likely it is. It was about teasing out your views based on a hypothetical (for you, but alas real for others) case.
    I'm sure you can imagine that someone to whom such a thing happens may be surprised by their own reaction to it, so that there are plenty of examples where even a woman who has always been against abortion, when she finds herself in certain situation (FFA, rape etc) realizes that she herself in that situation, absolutely needs to terminate the pregnancy.

    So you still haven't answered the question : from the position you now hold (because of course you too might find that your views changed, if it actually happened, but let's stay with your views today) if your wife felt she couldnt live with that pregnancy, do you think it would be acceptable behaviour on your part to physically force her to do so?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1013
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Kev W wrote: »
    I think that's despicable. Essentially torturing an innocent, already traumatised girl just to satisfy your own belief system is ghoulish.

    No, it's to stop the death of her unborn child. Which would be despicable if she were allowed to end its life.
    Kev W wrote: »
    Or what you and people like you believe is right, regardless of what "we" believe.

    What the country's legal system believes.
    And of course it is not right to end a childs life regardless of what you believe.


  • #1014
    inocybe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    It's not a bunch of cells.
    At a few weeks (8-10) it is formed into a recognisable shape (albeit a small one) of a baby.

    Having miscarried at 9 weeks, let me tell you it is absolutely unequivocally not a baby. It has potential, but at that stage to suggest it has equal rights to a woman is insulting. To have that as law is nothing less than disgusting to me as a woman and as a mother.


  • #1015
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The question wasn't about how likely it is. It was about teasing out your views based on a hypothetical (for you, but alas real for others) case.
    I'm sure you can imagine that someone to whom such a thing happens may be surprised by their own reaction to it, so that there are plenty of examples where even a woman who has always been against abortion, when she finds herself in certain situation (FFA, rape etc) realizes that she herself in that situation, absolutely needs to terminate the pregnancy.

    So you still haven't answered the question : from the position you now hold (because of course you too might find that your views changed, if it actually happened, but let's stay with your views today) if your wife felt she couldnt live with that pregnancy, do you think it would be acceptable behaviour on your part to physically force her to do so?

    Ok, lets disregard my statement that it wouldnt happen to me. Lets assume for an instance that it did. Lets also assume notionally that my wife decided she was now pro choice.

    It would not be acceptable behavior to physically force her. I wouldnt do that. However if I thought that she was at risk of ending a child's life I woudl notify the authorities and do whatever would be in my power to stop her from doing so.


  • #1016
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,978 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Ok, lets disregard my statement that it wouldnt happen to me. Lets assume for an instance that it did. Lets also assume notionally that my wife decided she was now pro choice.

    It would not be acceptable behavior to physically force her. I wouldnt do that. However if I thought that she was at risk of ending a child's life I woudl notify the authorities and do whatever would be in my power to stop her from doing so.

    Thankfully people of this mindset are a dying breed.


  • #1017
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    inocybe wrote: »
    Having miscarried at 9 weeks, let me tell you it is absolutely unequivocally not a baby. It has potential, but at that stage to suggest it has equal rights to a woman is insulting. To have that as law is nothing less than disgusting to me as a woman and as a mother.

    I'm sorry to hear about your miscarriage. An experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. While I may disagree with your points, please don't take that as any disrespect or underappreciation of the situation.

    But, if it is not a baby, why therefore is it so upsetting for parents when a miscarriage occurs?


  • #1018
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »

    I would not have spent my life married to a woman who would even countenance the idea of ending the life (or potential life) of anything, let alone our unborn child (regardless of who the biological "father" was, as I said earlier it would still be our child, since she was the mother)
    Actually just on this point - are you really telling us you knew this to be the case before you got married - ie you went through this sort of scenario before marriage - or do you mean that after you married, you would have left your wife (and children) if she'd said _ during a discussion about Miss Y, say - that she would not keep such a child?

    Only it seems to me that any man who can be so certain of what his wife "would think" about any given scenario, however unlikely to pertain to them, is actually simply projecting his own views onto her.

    I wonder if she's allowed to have her own views at all? :eek:

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1019
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Thankfully people of this mindset are a dying breed.

    Or are being aborted? :cool:


  • #1020
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »

    But, if it is not a baby, why therefore is it so upsetting for parents when a miscarriage occurs?

    Because it was potentially a baby. When something you want has the potential to happen and that potential is lost, that's upsetting. You can't possibly not understand that.


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  • #1021
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Actually just on this point - are you really telling us you knew this to be the case before you got married - ie you went through this sort of scenario before marriage - or do you mean that after you married, you would have left your wife (and children) if she'd said, durng a discussion about Miss Y, say) that she would not keep such a child?

    Only it seems to me that any man who can be so certain of what his wife "would think" about any given scenario, however unlikely to pertain to them, is actually simply projecting his own views onto her.

    I wonder if she's allowed to have her own views at all? :eek:

    No, of course I didnt know it when we first got together. However in my day, thoughts of aborting children were not entertained by anyone so it was pretty much a given.

    Of course I wouldnt' have left my wife, in any circumstance. It's not my place to judge. We got married for better and for worse so we would work through any issues.


This discussion has been closed.
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