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Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

12467…31

Comments

  • #92
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Can you have elective amputations if you're a man?

    Who said anything about the same rights? You want it to have the vote?
    And isn't a zygote not also human? Is it a cow?

    It can be a cow yes.


    But way to science.


  • #93
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    efb wrote: »
    Why should a zygote have the same rights as a human woman?

    I appreciate that you are trying to make your argument seem stronger but we both know that abortions at the zygote stage are non existent.
    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    Can you give birth? are you forced to carry something around in you for 9 months??

    If not then tbh you should shut the **** up and let the women have the choice

    I'm not going to marry a dude either. Should I not have voted for same sex marriage? I will never have a symphysiotomy so should I withdraw my support for the campaign to have sufferers compensated. I'm pretty sure I will never be the victim of ethnic genocide in Africa. Should I ignore it? Society is not about doing what is right for yourself.


  • #94
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    efb wrote: »
    I have full autonomy over my body, but in this country thats only because I'm male

    This is my view. I believe in full body autonomy for everybody so that takes precedence over any other factor.


  • #95
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I appreciate that you are trying to make your argument seem stronger but we both know that abortions at the zygote stage are non existent.



    I'm not going to marry a dude either. Should I not have voted for same sex marriage? I will never have a symphysiotomy so should I withdraw my support for the campaign to have sufferers compensated. I'm pretty sure I will never be the victim of ethnic genocide in Africa. Should I ignore it? Society is not about doing what is right for yourself.

    I'm a dude, doubt voting to give women the choice for abortions is about myself.


  • #96
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    will abortion effect those women?

    So that's a yes. Interesting. So only each particularly affected group should decide/care about the issues affecting them and only them. Wow.


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  • #97
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    c_man wrote: »
    So that's a yes. Interesting. So only each particularly affected group should decide/care about the issues affecting them and only them. Wow.

    will it effect you? no? will it benefit others? yes? Then why would you deny people that?


    I wonder how many anti abortion people would be so staunch if it was their daughters lives at risk? or if it was there daughters that got pregnant by rape? would they still demand its carried full term and abortion is murder?


  • #98
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    It can be a cow yes.
    Well, I can't object to abortions of cow zygotes, to be fair, although I'd rather not ask how a woman ended up with one in the first place.


  • #99
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    will it effect you? no? will it benefit others? yes? Then why would you deny people that?

    I wouldn't deny it at all. All the rest of your points are debatable.

    Taxpayers only voting in the general election next, right?


  • #100
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Here's a quick training manual for the pro lifers

    http://prolifetraining.com/resources/five-minute-12/


  • #101
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    the unborn could also be a cow or does the term unborn only apply to humans???


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  • #102
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    This is my view. I believe in full body autonomy for everybody so that takes precedence over any other factor.

    tbh I think this angle is down to the push to view abortion simply as an equality issue. I think that will be a major obstacle to it ever becoming legal here.

    the problem is that it is not about the woman's body but the body of the foetus

    at some point the foetus is another life and not part of the woman's body so to speak.

    there are all sorts of contradictions around this view - for example (a trite one perhaps) I know someone who supports abortion but goes nuts over the idea of a woman smoking or drinking while pregnant.


  • #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nodin wrote: »
    Of course not. However no Irish citizen or resident should be forced to go abroad for a medical service on the 'wink and a nod' basis that currently exists.
    So should we extend euthanasia law to children, just because Belgium does it?

    Should we allow numbered bank accounts, just because Switzerland allows them?

    Should we allow paid-surrogacy arrangements, just because some states in the USA do?

    I understand the well-meaning of this argument on abortion, but it's deeply flawed.

    We extend abortion to women because it is right to give women that freedom over their own lives. It would be right if nobody else did it. The fact that anybody else is doing it, or not, or even that people travel for accessing abortion, is irrelevant.


  • #104
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,776 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You are ignoring the reason that people don't believe in it. Most people do not support abortion because they value the life of the unborn child as much as the life of the mother.

    As I said if people dont believe in abortion then thats fair enough- they shouldn't have one and no-one will force them to. But for women who find themselves raped and pregnant or with a baby inside them that will die within minutes of birth then surely those women deserve to have a choice over what happens to their body? Or do we just keep sending them over to the UK and continue to pretend a problem doesn't exist?


  • #105
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    I would take the Christopher Hitchens approach to abortion - to suggest that an unborn foetus is not an unborn human being is manifestly nonsense.


  • #106
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Can you have elective amputations if you're a man?
    Well, yes :).
    I can amputate my own arm and I won't be charged with any crime. Though I might be carted off to the madhouse.

    While you're right in that it is not possible to actually get an elective amputation in Ireland and therefore it's practically not available, the act of amputation is not in itself illegal and you have the legal ability choose to remove your own arm.

    The difference here is that the act of abortion is, in itself, illegal. That's regardless of whether it's done by a competent professional or a dangerous DIY procedure.

    Which means that women are in fact legally denied the ability to choose.


  • #107
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    As I said if people dont believe in abortion then thats fair enough- they shouldn't have one and no-one will force them to. But for women who find themselves raped and pregnant or with a baby inside them that will die within minutes of birth then surely those women deserve to have a choice over what happens to their body? Or do we just keep sending them over to the UK and continue to pretend a problem doesn't exist?

    Sending them? Nobody is being sent to my knowledge. They just aren't being prevented. You're asking if they should have a choice over what happens to their body. But that isn't the question. The question is whether they should have a choice over the body of another, and not just nay choice, the choice to extinguish it.


  • #108
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    seamus wrote: »
    The difference here is that the act of abortion is, in itself, illegal. That's regardless of whether it's done by a competent professional or a dangerous DIY procedure.

    in fairness there is a significant difference between a limb and a foetus


  • #109
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,776 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Sending them? Nobody is being sent to my knowledge. They just aren't being prevented. You're asking if they should have a choice over what happens to their body. But that isn't the question. The question is whether they should have a choice over the body of another, and not just nay choice, the choice to extinguish it.

    In the case of rape or fatal foetal abnormalities I'd have no problems with that. Its the woman herself who knows what is best for her at the end of the day. IMO having a public health policy where the State says that a woman should carry an essentially dead baby inside her body for 9 months is nothing short of barbaric. Telling a raped woman who finds herself pregnant that she is now expected to have that baby is pretty barbaric too and its no wonder some women turn suicidal over the issue, they want to get away from the rape and move on but the State doesn't agree and expects them to go through even further trauma than they already have.

    Anyway at the end of the day if our abortion policy are designed to stop abortions happening well then it hasn't worked- Irish women travel to the UK every day of the week for an abortion. So instead of sweeping our public health problems under the British carpet why don't we just stand up and address the problem from the perspective of 'how it is' rather than the current perspective of 'how we'd like it to be'. The abortion issue just wont go away and will get bigger and bigger as more and more Irish women who have had them feel disenfranchised by our public health system.


  • #110
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    efb wrote: »
    the unborn could also be a cow or does the term unborn only apply to humans???
    Ah, but what I was pointing out was that you specifically described one as human and the other not. And unless we're discussing veterinary science, they're both human. Had you not specified human for either or had for both then fine, but doing so for only one was suspect to say the least.

    The second mistake you made was suggesting that it is a zygote - it's not one for long, so unless you are suggesting that it's ok to abort only while it is in the zygote stage, then you really have to correct your language.

    As for the 'same rights' line, that was just too funny.


  • #111
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    seamus wrote: »
    The difference here is that the act of abortion is, in itself, illegal. That's regardless of whether it's done by a competent professional or a dangerous DIY procedure.
    Well argued!


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  • #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The question is whether they should have a choice over the body of another, and not just nay choice, the choice to extinguish it.
    Yes, they should.

    If you have a rare (almost unique) blood type, should the police be allowed to bundle you in the back of a van, and compel you to donate a spare kidney to a stranger? Of course not.

    That's effectively what the pro-life lot demand of pregnant rape victims.

    She's been stolen away and raped, and now they're forcing her to use her body to give life to another human as part of that transaction.


  • #113
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    seamus wrote: »
    Which means that women are in fact legally denied the ability to choose.

    If Thomas Beatie was pregnant and living in Ireland today, could he have an abortion?


  • #114
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    So what is our ban actually achieving?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #115
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    K-9 wrote: »
    So what is our ban actually achieving?
    Given the state of the Irish medical establishment, probably safer abortions abroad.


  • #116
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    K-9 wrote: »
    So what is our ban actually achieving?

    Sweeping it underneath somebody else's carpet.


  • #117
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Riskymove wrote: »
    tbh I think this angle is down to the push to view abortion simply as an equality issue. I think that will be a major obstacle to it ever becoming legal here.

    the problem is that it is not about the woman's body but the body of the foetus

    at some point the foetus is another life and not part of the woman's body so to speak.

    there are all sorts of contradictions around this view - for example (a trite one perhaps) I know someone who supports abortion but goes nuts over the idea of a woman smoking or drinking while pregnant.

    I disagree. It is completely about the woman's body and she can freely choose what to do with it.


  • #118
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    I disagree. It is completely about the woman's body and she can freely choose what to do with it.

    well you are entitled to your view of course


  • #119
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I for one think it's absolutely appalling in this day and age in a civilised society, that there are people who don't know the abortion and miniature flag reference.

    :pac:


  • #120
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    If Thomas Beatie was pregnant and living in Ireland today, could he have an abortion?
    Do we have to preface every use of the word "woman" with "biological", or for the sake of this discussion can we just assume it's implicit and not start splitting hairs here?


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  • #121
    Brancott
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭Brancott


    K-9 wrote: »
    So what is our ban actually achieving?

    (1) Raising the coffers of the NHS by 3,700 x €500

    (2) Keeping that nasty sin out of Ireland so we'll all go to heaven, wheay

    (3) Giving fringe politicians an easy soapbox


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