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Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

  • 09-06-2015 01:02PM
    #1
    Brancott
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭Brancott


    I see the 2014 figures are up slightly for Irish women having abortions in the UK.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/increase-in-number-of-irish-travelling-to-uk-for-abortions-1.2242750
    A total of 3,735 women with Irish addresses travelled to England or Wales for abortions last year, an increase on the 2013 of 3,679, the first year-on-year rise in the number of abortions for Irish citizens since 2001.

    Of course what these figures haven't account for is the amount of women who purchase abortion pills online & successfully get them passed customs.

    The effect of cheap air travel has also meant that the UK is no longer an exclusive destination for this procedure.

    The true figure is probably then much higher than the 3,735 quoted, perhaps even a multiple of it.

    Not lets be Irish about this & pretend it doesn't exist then bury our heads in the sand.


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Comments

  • #2
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    I have no idea what the title of this thread means, what is a miniature flag?


  • #3
    maxwell smart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    What is the connection with miniature flags?


  • #4
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Brancott wrote: »

    Not lets be Irish about this & pretend it doesn't exist then bury our heads in the sand.

    Who's pretending it doesn't happen?


  • #5
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    So lets remove the 8th and any nonsense reference to god/religion from the constitution and introduce legislation to govern abortion.


  • #6
    crazyderk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭crazyderk


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0aNxzF7MAk


    This is the OP's reference to flags


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  • #7
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.


  • #8
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,772 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Yes, this is what we need on a nice summer's day, an abortion debate.

    We know it happens, we know it exists, we know there are people on both sides of the argument, we know they won't agree.
    Why not just read an old thread on it...


  • #9
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,971 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.


    It would mean we sort our own problems though.


  • #10
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.

    Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.


  • #11
    lynski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    The figures have been there or thereabouts for decades, since records began. In spite of changes to income, easy of travel, ease of access to contraceptives, social changes around acceptance of unmarried parents.
    We have buried our collective heads in the sand for decades.
    Legal, safe abortion needs to be available in Ireland, coupled with good sex education and cheap contraceptives.
    These women are us, our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.
    Just stop and think how you want to be treated by our country? How you want your female relatives to be treated? Time to grow up.


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  • #12
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,772 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

    If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
    Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

    This is the argument you are using.


  • #13
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    lynski wrote: »
    These women are us, our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

    The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.


  • #14
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
    Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

    This is the argument you are using.

    No, it is not. (Nor would we normally deport somebody wanted for murder to a country that employs the death penalty unless guarantees were given that sentence would not be sought.)


  • #15
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,403 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.

    But who decides if abortion is right? The state? The 14 year old girl who was raped? The father who doesn't want to be a dad? The doctor who knows the mother will die during childbirth? Etc,. Etc. the list is endless.


  • #16
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,772 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, it is not. (Nor would we normally deport somebody wanted for murder to a country that employs the death penalty unless guarantees were given that sentence would not be sought.)

    Yes it is, you are arguing we should have something here, because it is legal somewhere else.
    My analogy was the same person with two separate murders, one in a country with no death penalty, the other in a country with the death penalty.

    just because something is legal somewhere else doesn't mean we should ignore the will of the people who voted for protection of life of the mother and the unborn.

    Lets say Ireland becomes very conservative in 30 years times, should we have a referendum to overturn the same sex marriage vote of 2015, because we then view the people of 2015 of being wrong?


  • #17
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

    Others would say that they have dealt with it by not allowing it here.

    That is the problem with the issue around abortion as opposed, for example, to the recent marriage equality referendum. It is not a black and white, all or nothing issue.

    There is a broad range of views amongst people on abortion and what degree to which it should be allowed.


  • #18
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes it is, you are arguing we should have something here, because it is legal somewhere else.
    ..................

    No. Assisted suicide is illegal here. If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.


  • #19
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

    The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, rapists, murderers not just numbers on a page.

    oops you forgot to put in that bit in your post


  • #20
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

    No one is 'letting someone else deal with it'. If women want to go to a country where abortion is legal you can't forcibly stop them from leaving the airport.

    While we're at it let's relax our gun laws. If someone want to buy a gun and carry it around with them they can just go to Texas.


  • #21
    lynski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    The pregnant woman, she decides. She is one of Ireland's well educated youth, our much lauded knowledge economy, smart,decisive, coveted in all areas except her bodily autonomy.
    If you disagree with abortion ( and personally it is not for me, right now) then don't have one, but 4000 Irish women each year have one, they deserve dignity.
    Btw I have no interest in discussing foetuses- medical experts have the job of deciding the safety & ethicality of medical procedures.


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  • #22
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Nodin wrote: »
    No. Assisted suicide is illegal here. If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

    it is actually even more bizarre as suicide (or more accurately I guess, attempted suicide) is not a crime here presently.


  • #23
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    Nodin wrote: »
    If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

    Would you support the country charging such women with a crime so?


  • #24
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    No one is 'letting someone else deal with it'. If women want to go to a country where abortion is legal you can't forcibly stop them from leaving the airport.

    actually that has happened


  • #25
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    RobertKK wrote: »
    If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
    Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

    This is the argument you are using.

    This is just utter nonsense.


  • #26
    lynski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    Riskymove wrote: »
    actually that has happened

    It is happening all the time, worst case was a woman forced to have a Caesarian section @ 26 wks to preserves our 'no abortions here' status.


  • #27
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    Would you support the country charging such women with a crime so?

    Of course not. However no Irish citizen or resident should be forced to go abroad for a medical service on the 'wink and a nod' basis that currently exists.


  • #28
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,772 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Nodin wrote: »
    No. Assisted suicide is illegal here. If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

    The people of 1983 were not cowards, they voted for what they believed, like the people of 2015 did in the most recent referendums.
    Should we just keep voting on the same referendums because some are unable to accept what was the will of the people, like we do with European referendums?
    Would you be happy to re-visit referendums like the same sex marriage referendum in the future?


  • #29
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes it is, you are arguing we should have something here, because it is legal somewhere else.
    My analogy was the same person with two separate murders, one in a country with no death penalty, the other in a country with the death penalty.

    just because something is legal somewhere else doesn't mean we should ignore the will of the people who voted for protection of life of the mother and the unborn.

    Lets say Ireland becomes very conservative in 30 years times, should we have a referendum to overturn the same sex marriage vote of 2015, because we then view the people of 2015 of being wrong?

    If you want to petition for that, feel free. Do not be surprised however to find in 30 years time that the support rate for SSM is in the region of 80 to 85%.


  • #30
    Cuban Pete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Cuban Pete


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

    Every sperm and egg has the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.


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  • #31
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,772 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    galljga1 wrote: »
    This is just utter nonsense.

    When talking of nonsense, speak for your own posts before you look elsewhere.


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