Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

Brancott

I see the 2014 figures are up slightly for Irish women having abortions in the UK.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/increase-in-number-of-irish-travelling-to-uk-for-abortions-1.2242750

A total of 3,735 women with Irish addresses travelled to England or Wales for abortions last year, an increase on the 2013 of 3,679, the first year-on-year rise in the number of abortions for Irish citizens since 2001.

Of course what these figures haven't account for is the amount of women who purchase abortion pills online & successfully get them passed customs.

The effect of cheap air travel has also meant that the UK is no longer an exclusive destination for this procedure.

The true figure is probably then much higher than the 3,735 quoted, perhaps even a multiple of it.

Not lets be Irish about this & pretend it doesn't exist then bury our heads in the sand.

Arsemageddon

I have no idea what the title of this thread means, what is a miniature flag?

maxwell smart

What is the connection with miniature flags?

Valetta

Brancott wrote: »

Not lets be Irish about this & pretend it doesn't exist then bury our heads in the sand.

Who's pretending it doesn't happen?

galljga1

So lets remove the 8th and any nonsense reference to god/religion from the constitution and introduce legislation to govern abortion.

crazyderk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0aNxzF7MAk

This is the OP's reference to flags

Irish Guitarist

If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.

RobertKK

Yes, this is what we need on a nice summer's day, an abortion debate.

We know it happens, we know it exists, we know there are people on both sides of the argument, we know they won't agree.
Why not just read an old thread on it...

kneemos

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.

It would mean we sort our own problems though.

Nodin

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.

Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

lynski

The figures have been there or thereabouts for decades, since records began. In spite of changes to income, easy of travel, ease of access to contraceptives, social changes around acceptance of unmarried parents.
We have buried our collective heads in the sand for decades.
Legal, safe abortion needs to be available in Ireland, coupled with good sex education and cheap contraceptives.
These women are us, our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.
Just stop and think how you want to be treated by our country? How you want your female relatives to be treated? Time to grow up.

RobertKK

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

This is the argument you are using.

NachoBusiness

lynski wrote: »

These women are us, our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

Nodin

RobertKK wrote: »

If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

This is the argument you are using.

No, it is not. (Nor would we normally deport somebody wanted for murder to a country that employs the death penalty unless guarantees were given that sentence would not be sought.)

07Lapierre

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

If someone wants to leave the country to have an abortion in a country where it's legal you can't stop them. It doesn't mean making abortion legal here would be right.

But who decides if abortion is right? The state? The 14 year old girl who was raped? The father who doesn't want to be a dad? The doctor who knows the mother will die during childbirth? Etc,. Etc. the list is endless.

RobertKK

Nodin wrote: »

No, it is not. (Nor would we normally deport somebody wanted for murder to a country that employs the death penalty unless guarantees were given that sentence would not be sought.)

Yes it is, you are arguing we should have something here, because it is legal somewhere else.
My analogy was the same person with two separate murders, one in a country with no death penalty, the other in a country with the death penalty.

just because something is legal somewhere else doesn't mean we should ignore the will of the people who voted for protection of life of the mother and the unborn.

Lets say Ireland becomes very conservative in 30 years times, should we have a referendum to overturn the same sex marriage vote of 2015, because we then view the people of 2015 of being wrong?

Riskymove

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

Others would say that they have dealt with it by not allowing it here.

That is the problem with the issue around abortion as opposed, for example, to the recent marriage equality referendum. It is not a black and white, all or nothing issue.

There is a broad range of views amongst people on abortion and what degree to which it should be allowed.

Nodin

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes it is, you are arguing we should have something here, because it is legal somewhere else.
..................

No. Assisted suicide is illegal here. If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

gctest50

NachoBusiness wrote: »

The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, rapists, murderers not just numbers on a page.

oops you forgot to put in that bit in your post

Irish Guitarist

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. If theres something difficult or awkward happening on your doorstep, it's far better to ignore it and let somebody else deal with it, rather than get involved in the mess yourself.

No one is 'letting someone else deal with it'. If women want to go to a country where abortion is legal you can't forcibly stop them from leaving the airport.

While we're at it let's relax our gun laws. If someone want to buy a gun and carry it around with them they can just go to Texas.

lynski

The pregnant woman, she decides. She is one of Ireland's well educated youth, our much lauded knowledge economy, smart,decisive, coveted in all areas except her bodily autonomy.
If you disagree with abortion ( and personally it is not for me, right now) then don't have one, but 4000 Irish women each year have one, they deserve dignity.
Btw I have no interest in discussing foetuses- medical experts have the job of deciding the safety & ethicality of medical procedures.

Riskymove

Nodin wrote: »

No. Assisted suicide is illegal here. If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

it is actually even more bizarre as suicide (or more accurately I guess, attempted suicide) is not a crime here presently.

NachoBusiness

Nodin wrote: »

If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

Would you support the country charging such women with a crime so?

Riskymove

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

No one is 'letting someone else deal with it'. If women want to go to a country where abortion is legal you can't forcibly stop them from leaving the airport.

actually that has happened

galljga1

RobertKK wrote: »

If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

This is the argument you are using.

This is just utter nonsense.

lynski

Riskymove wrote: »

actually that has happened

It is happening all the time, worst case was a woman forced to have a Caesarian section @ 26 wks to preserves our 'no abortions here' status.

Nodin

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Would you support the country charging such women with a crime so?

Of course not. However no Irish citizen or resident should be forced to go abroad for a medical service on the 'wink and a nod' basis that currently exists.

RobertKK

Nodin wrote: »

No. Assisted suicide is illegal here. If you try to assist somebody committing suicide here or going abroad to do so, you will face a charge. Abortion is illegal here, if you have or perform an abortion you will face charges. However you can legally leave the country for the purpose of having an abortion. It's a cop out, moral cowardice and a classic example of passing the buck.

The people of 1983 were not cowards, they voted for what they believed, like the people of 2015 did in the most recent referendums.
Should we just keep voting on the same referendums because some are unable to accept what was the will of the people, like we do with European referendums?
Would you be happy to re-visit referendums like the same sex marriage referendum in the future?

galljga1

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes it is, you are arguing we should have something here, because it is legal somewhere else.
My analogy was the same person with two separate murders, one in a country with no death penalty, the other in a country with the death penalty.

just because something is legal somewhere else doesn't mean we should ignore the will of the people who voted for protection of life of the mother and the unborn.

Lets say Ireland becomes very conservative in 30 years times, should we have a referendum to overturn the same sex marriage vote of 2015, because we then view the people of 2015 of being wrong?

If you want to petition for that, feel free. Do not be surprised however to find in 30 years time that the support rate for SSM is in the region of 80 to 85%.

Cuban Pete

NachoBusiness wrote: »

The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

Every sperm and egg has the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

RobertKK

galljga1 wrote: »

This is just utter nonsense.

When talking of nonsense, speak for your own posts before you look elsewhere.

Riskymove

RobertKK wrote: »

The people of 1983 were not cowards, they voted for what they believed, like the people of 2015 did in the most recent referendums.

societies change

how long should the will of the people of 1983 remain over existing citizens?

Nodin

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

No one is 'letting someone else deal with it'. If women want to go to a country where abortion is legal you can't forcibly stop them from leaving the airport.
..........

Until recently, you could, should it become known that was why they were travelling. However this changed to the 'as long as it doesn't happen on our holy soil' approach we have now.

And then theres the problem of young women in state care, who can't travel.

RobertKK

galljga1 wrote: »

If you want to petition for that, feel free. Do not be surprised however to find in 30 years time that the support rate for SSM is in the region of 80 to 85%.

That is nonsense, how do you know that?

Just guessing which is based on nothing.

Little CuChulainn

Riskymove wrote: »

societies change

how long should the will of the people of 1983 remain over existing citizens?

Until they vote in a government with a mandate to change it.

ThinkProgress

I think we all know a few adults that should have been aborted... lol

Is this not evidence enough that we should legalise it?

I'd be in favour of a few retrospective abortions too! :P

Nodin

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Until they vote in a government with a mandate to change it.

I'd suggest "Until they vote in a government with the bollocks to change it" would be closer to the truth. I'd say a large majority support abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities and rape at the very least.

Little CuChulainn

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest "Until they vote in a government with the bollocks to change it" would be closer to the truth. I'd say a large majority support abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities and rape at the very least.

I doubt there is as many in the latter as in the former.

RobertKK

Riskymove wrote: »

societies change

how long should the will of the people of 1983 remain over existing citizens?

Life of the woman and the unborn has not changed.

How long does it take for society to change something which is wrong to view it as a right?

Look at Amnesty International, out supporting abortion, yet it's founder was against it, and it was only when he was gone that they chose to view some abortions as being ok, but it went against the person who made the organisation famous.
It also cost the organisation money as many will not support Amnesty now for what some would view as it's support for a human right abuse.

RobertKK

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest "Until they vote in a government with the bollocks to change it" would be closer to the truth. I'd say a large majority support abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities and rape at the very least.

Fatal fetal abnormality is not black and white.

Anyone who thinks it is do not know personal cases where there are children living normal lives, despite the mother being told the unborn child would not live.

PARlance

What size does a flag have to be before it's miniature?

Nodin

RobertKK wrote: »

Fatal fetal abnormality is not black and white.

.............

Yep. There are children born with no brains now leading successful lives and contributing to society.

Riskymove

RobertKK wrote: »

Life of the woman and the unborn has not changed.

actually I think the views on, for example, how to treat cases where the baby won't live or where as a result of incest or rape (issues largely unreported or dealt with in 1983), have changed significantly

and frankly, I think the view of the value of the life of a woman has increased significantly since then too

Cookie_Monster

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. There are children born with no brains now leading successful lives and contributing to society.

Strange how politics tends to attract such leading lights :pac:

Nodin

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I doubt there is as many in the latter as in the former.

"The Behaviour & Attitudes Poll of 916 eligible voters is published in today’s Sunday Times and finds that 59 per cent of people favour abortion where “the mother displays suicidal feelings”.
Seventy-four per cent of those polled said that where pregnancy results from rape abortion should be permissible with a fifth of those polled opposed to this.
Even more, 80 per cent, believe that a fatal foetal abnormality situation should mean that a woman has access to an abortion while 87 per cent are in favour of abortion where the mother’s life is in danger – but not from the risk of suicide."
http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-ireland-rape-fatal-foetal-abnormality-771180-Jan2013/
A 6% difference, in that poll at least.

frostyjacks

If a neighbouring country has abortion-on-demand that's no reason for us to change our constitution. It's fine the way it is, the people voted for it already.

07Lapierre

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Every sperm and egg has the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

What about the eggs that are not fertalised every month? what about all those poor sperm that actually make into the fallopioan tubes, but only the fastest/strongest one makes it to the bloddy egg! :rolleyes:

NachoBusiness

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Every sperm and egg has the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

Not nearly as much as a baby at four to five month stage of fetal growth they don't. Do sperm cells have a heart beat? Do they have a gender? Can they be witnessed wincing, grimacing and sucking their thumbs? Nah, so away and think up a better retort than that facetious nonsense.

Thankfully most abortions are carried out before 13 weeks and only around 10% between 14 and 24 but it's still far too many in my view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl4co46cN2U

Little CuChulainn

Nodin wrote: »

"The Behaviour & Attitudes Poll of 916 eligible voters is published in today’s Sunday Times and finds that 59 per cent of people favour abortion where “the mother displays suicidal feelings”.
Seventy-four per cent of those polled said that where pregnancy results from rape abortion should be permissible with a fifth of those polled opposed to this.
Even more, 80 per cent, believe that a fatal foetal abnormality situation should mean that a woman has access to an abortion while 87 per cent are in favour of abortion where the mother’s life is in danger – but not from the risk of suicide."
http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-ireland-rape-fatal-foetal-abnormality-771180-Jan2013/
A 6% difference, in that poll at least.

And they had one before the same sex marriage referendum saying it would be 80:20. I just don't think that there would be as many supporting the rape scenario after the canvassing and campaigning is done. They are different issues and shouldn't be lumped together.

gctest50

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a neighbouring country has abortion-on-demand that's no reason for us to change our constitution. It's fine the way it is, the people voted for it already.

de people joe ......... and that was the problem

voting should have been restricted to :

women 21 - 35 ( nice wide margin there )

except

no nuns ( won't be having none ) no creche workers, nurses,teachers and a few more

Muahahaha

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

No one is 'letting someone else deal with it'. If women want to go to a country where abortion is legal you can't forcibly stop them from leaving the airport.

eh, that exact scenario just happened last year, teenager was raped and feel pregnant and wanted to go to the UK to abort. She was certified as suicidal but the State refused her leaving the country to get an abortion