The Irish language is failing.

jackofalltrades · 08-06-2015 02:29AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Articale 42 also states:
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

It could be argued that not teahing your child irish would be in violation of this.

My post was referring to teaching students in all subjects through Irish, rather than whether they should be taught Irish or not.

lizzyman · 08-06-2015 02:35AM

For what it's worth, I wish they would stop trying to flog a dead horse and just let Irish die. Nasty sounding language (to my ears anyway) and this nonsense of having road signs and all official documents also available in Irish is a pointless waste of time and money.

lizzyman · 08-06-2015 02:36AM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Hiberno-English is just English that wasn't learned properly and then was taught to others.

ironic considering the topic at hand

+1000

08-06-2015 06:48AM

Grayson wrote: »

I'd imagine it just wasn't possible. They probably had the same problem we do now. Where are you going to find that many qualified teachers who can speak fluent Irish. I doubt there were enough fluent speakers who could teach stuff like higher maths.

Possibly true in the 1920s, should have been possible by the 1940s after two decades worth of primary education with Irish being taught.

08-06-2015 07:31AM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

And Manx has gone from the point from where it literally was extinct, to having a hundred speakers and schools in the language. Ironically, it took an English immigrant to lead the revival after the last native speaker died!

I saw a TV programme where the Manx revival was discussed and it died because the remaining native speakers had no interest in continuing with the language, nor did they support any attempts to revive it.

It had to die first!

dr.fuzzenstein · 08-06-2015 08:22AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I saw a TV programme where the Manx revival was discussed and it died because the remaining native speakers had no interest in continuing with the language, nor did they support any attempts to revive it.

It had to die first!

So maybe the same is true for Irish? If it were let to die, people would flock to revive it. Suddenly it would be cool. Imagine that as a concept! :P:D

08-06-2015 08:59AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So maybe the same is true for Irish? If it were let to die, people would flock to revive it. Suddenly it would be cool. Imagine that as a concept! :P:D

Probably is for many of the older speakers, not so much for younger ones. Not at all for younger people who want to use it as a second language.

whisky_galore · 08-06-2015 09:24AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So maybe the same is true for Irish? If it were let to die, people would flock to revive it. Suddenly it would be cool. Imagine that as a concept! :P:D

Linguistic hipsters?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-06-2015 09:58AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

My post was referring to teaching students in all subjects through Irish, rather than whether they should be taught Irish or not.

Yeah, I know - but the quoted article requires for the government to provide services for said education in both lanaguges - so teaching only in Irish (all subjects) would reqire a referendum.

CruelCoin · 08-06-2015 10:16AM

Grayson wrote: »

I'd imagine it just wasn't possible. They probably had the same problem we do now. Where are you going to find that many qualified teachers who can speak fluent Irish. I doubt there were enough fluent speakers who could teach stuff like higher maths.

God, i can see it now....Kids thumbing furiously through their english-irish dictionaries while the teacher is going through calculus in his/her finest donegal accent.

What a disaster that would be.

PopePalpatine · 08-06-2015 10:22AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

God, i can see it now....Kids thumbing furiously through their english-irish dictionaries while the teacher is going through calculus in his/her finest donegal accent.

What a disaster that would be.

Why do you hate the Gaelgóirí cine máistir? :pac:

mickydoomsux · 08-06-2015 10:33AM

Irish is a complete waste of teaching time and resources in already overburdened schools and should be entirely removed from the curriculum. People can teach their kids irish at home if they want.

We may as well be teaching them how to repair tube televisions and rotary telephones for all that Irish is worth in the modern world.

The Corinthian · 08-06-2015 10:55AM

Ahhh... the tedious Irish language debate.

On one side, people with a hatred for the language, having been force fed it for 12 years with nothing to show for it, who would like nothing more than to see it die.

On the other side, Gaelgores playing out our own version of the dead parrot sketch, denying that there's any problem with the language and claiming that numbers are rising, despite it being clear that it is and has been in decline for decades, with statistics reporting its health being laughably collated at this stage.

Search through some of the threads here from ten or fifteen years ago and you'll see their posts telling us how the Gaelscoils had ushered in a revival in the language. Yet, here we are again.

In the middle, a few are left who would like to see the language being actually used, but have seen absolutely no vision or reform in the language's handling for decades and are not expecting to see any - least of all from the Gaelgores.

It's like sitting in a hospital, by the bedside of a dying relative and almost wishing it was over.

mickydoomsux · 08-06-2015 11:01AM

It would be over pretty quickly if all government support for the language was pulled.

dr.fuzzenstein · 08-06-2015 11:19AM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It would be over pretty quickly if all government support for the language was pulled.

Maybe not, see linguistic hipsters.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-06-2015 12:33PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ahhh... the tedious Irish language debate.

On one side, people with a hatred for the language, having been force fed it for 12 years with nothing to show for it, who would like nothing more than to see it die.

On the other side, Gaelgores playing out our own version of the dead parrot sketch, denying that there's any problem with the language and claiming that numbers are rising, despite it being clear that it is and has been in decline for decades, with statistics reporting its health being laughably collated at this stage.

Search through some of the threads here from ten or fifteen years ago and you'll see their posts telling us how the Gaelscoils had ushered in a revival in the language. Yet, here we are again.

In the middle, a few are left who would like to see the language being actually used, but have seen absolutely no vision or reform in the language's handling for decades and are not expecting to see any - least of all from the Gaelgores.

It's like sitting in a hospital, by the bedside of a dying relative and almost wishing it was over.

Read back, we have the ideas. We've expressed rhem .

Don't force it - conplsion is counterproductive.
Engage kids that are starting school.
Teach it as a language not a school subject.
Teach it as you would a second language, not a first.
Train people who are passionate about it to share their passion.

What we lack is the power and ability to actually engage the powers that can make these changes in open discussion.

briany · 08-06-2015 12:39PM

Un Croissant wrote: »

Just watching the news and the Irish language is failing, even in the Gaeltacht.

♪On a cold and gray An Spidéal morn, a poor little Gaelic child is born in the Gaeltacht....

And his mathair cries.♪

The Corinthian · 08-06-2015 01:06PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It would be over pretty quickly if all government support for the language was pulled.

It won't be pulled overnight. While the language is not quite the same sacred cow it once was, there are still too many vested interests and politically it is still a little to sensitive to do this.

I'd expect to see it's mandatory status in education and government eroded slowly. Eventually this would eventually lead to budgetary cuts, as this is where real opposition will appear - when the jobs associated with Irish would become threatened. And finally, it's nominal status as 'first language' will remain long after it's gone.

Unfortunately, and I do mean unfortunately, that's where I see it all going in the long run.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Read back, we have the ideas. We've expressed rhem .

I've not said people have no ideas. I've said that on one side the only idea held is to see the language die and the other side the language is alive and well and how dare you suggest otherwise - that middle ground has either become the exception, rather than the rule, increasingly or has been abandoned to apathy.

Train people who are passionate about it to share their passion.

Evangelists? Great; just what the Irish educational system needs more of.

What we lack is the power and ability to actually engage the powers that can make these changes in open discussion.

Who is 'we' exactly?

Iwasfrozen · 08-06-2015 01:53PM

lizzyman wrote: »

For what it's worth, I wish they would stop trying to flog a dead horse and just let Irish die. Nasty sounding language (to my ears anyway) and this nonsense of having road signs and all official documents also available in Irish is a pointless waste of time and money.

+1000

darkpagandeath · 08-06-2015 02:00PM

Can I ask, What are the origins of Irish ? There were people here before the celts.

briany · 08-06-2015 02:42PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, What are the origins of Irish ? There were people here before the celts.

Based on the current archaeological evidence (subject to change), the Celts never 'invaded' Ireland the way they invaded Britain, so meat and veg of the Irish genetic stew is still thought to be those waves of more-or-less unknown peoples who came to Ireland's shores in prehistoric times. As for where Irish came from, it is thought to have arrived here, in a proto- form via trade links with Britain or the continent, and gradually became the language to speak if you wanted to get ahead, replacing whatever mumbo-jumbo people were speaking at the time. Historians can't seem to agree on a period of introduction, but it seems to have been a fair way BC.

darkpagandeath · 08-06-2015 02:47PM

briany wrote: »

Based on the current archaeological evidence (subject to change), the Celts never 'invaded' Ireland the way they invaded Britain, so meat and veg of the Irish genetic stew is still thought to be those waves of more-or-less unknown peoples who came to Ireland's shores in prehistoric times. As for where Irish came from, it is thought to have arrived here, in a proto- form via trade links with Britain or the continent, and gradually became the language to speak if you wanted to get ahead, replacing whatever mumbo-jumbo people were speaking at the time. Historians can't seem to agree on a period of introduction, but it seems to have been a fair way BC.

That's what I thought. Some people go on like the celts committed some kind of genocide instead of only having a small presence in Ireland.

gormdubhgorm · 08-06-2015 05:59PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I'm was refering specifically to parents/students that have poor levels of English.

Fairly sure this means you can't force children to be taught in Irish.
Since this wouldn't be respectful of parents who can't speak the language, but want to home school their kids.

(See other comments above on article 8 by myself an another poster)
I willing to be corrected but since Irish is part of the hertitage of the state I believe it will also have protection under European law. Particulary as it is now an "official" language in the EU. Since EU law is said to take precedent to Irish law I am fairly sure that Ireland would win the case if they went with the all-Irish schools plan.
Maybe a constitutional lawyer/European lawyer can fill in the gaps a bit here for me here a bit?

As for the source of children of foreign nationals picking up the Irish Language better then the Irish kids a teacher has commented on this thread that this in fact true.

As for the general attitude to foreigners learning the Irish language I think the following article sums up the attitude Irish people have unfortunately

http://http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/radio-documentary-follows-foreigners-learning-irish-1.1853989

gormdubhgorm · 08-06-2015 06:17PM

What amazes me is that Hungary managed to revive Hungarian but Ireland has made a balls of it.

Over a hundred years ago the idea was to copy the Hungarian's
Here is a article I found paralleling the Irish/Hungarian national language "crusade" and how Thomas Davis had a romantic view about the Irish languages revival written by a Hungarian (in English the lingua franca of the world :eek:).

http://webbut.unitbv.ro/BU2012/Series%20IV/BULETIN%20IV/03_Pinter_red.pdf

I think that Ireland's youth is now more concerned with talking like American's "like" and following the Kardashians then the modh coinniollach!

gormdubhgorm · 08-06-2015 06:22PM

Grayson wrote: »

Barely. It wasn't at first. Then after a lot of whining it became a "treaty language" and after more whining it became an official language.

At one point it also met the criteria for a dead language according to the EU.

Yeah and now they have people hired in Europe to translate any Irish

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irish-becomes-the-23rd-official-language-of-eu-430615.html

AnLonDubh · 08-06-2015 06:53PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, What are the origins of Irish ? There were people here before the celts.

Basically what briany said. Proto-Celtic arrived in Ireland via the continent from a small number of Celtic settlers. It then evolved into a distinctive form of Celtic, i.e. Irish, over the next few centuries.

That Irish is dying/on the verge of extinction should be no surprise to anybody who is familiar with the Gaeltacht. The chance to revive it was already missed by the 1940s and Irish people dont seemed to have wanted to speak it anymore. I love it and its linguistic history myself, but c'est la vie.

darkpagandeath · 08-06-2015 07:01PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah and now they have people hired in Europe to translate any Irish

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irish-becomes-the-23rd-official-language-of-eu-430615.html

Do we have any Irish only speaking politicians ?

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 07:22PM

darkpagandeath wrote:

Do we have any Irish only speaking politicians ?

They'd never get elected given the majority of constituencies are English speaking.

jackofalltrades · 08-06-2015 07:26PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

(See other comments above on article 8 by myself an another poster)
I willing to be corrected but since Irish is part of the hertitage of the state I believe it will also have protection under European law. Particulary as it is now an "official" language in the EU. Since EU law is said to take precedent to Irish law I am fairly sure that Ireland would win the case if they went with the all-Irish schools plan.
Maybe a constitutional lawyer/European lawyer can fill in the gaps a bit here for me here a bit?

What part of Article 8 gives you the right to tell people what language they can teach their children in?
Article 8 Section 3 only refers to "official purposes", which I would understand to mean when dealing with the state.
You would be stretching the definition in my opinion to apply it to citizens/private organisations.

As for the source of children of foreign nationals picking up the Irish Language better then the Irish kids a teacher has commented on this thread that this in fact true.

As for the general attitude to foreigners learning the Irish language I think the following article sums up the attitude Irish people have unfortunately
http://http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/radio-documentary-follows-foreigners-learning-irish-1.1853989

One teacher and a radio documentary isn't really the source I was looking for. I was thinking more in the line of a study.

Aineoil · 08-06-2015 09:30PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I had a look at bua na cainte on edco you mentioned previously. Would you happen to know if the interactive pc software is available or is it for teachers only? Thanks!

I'm not sure if it's available for parents. For schools you pay for a licence to

access the site on the internet for a school year. I think, if I remember

correctly, the licence cost around 70 euro for the year but I stand to be

corrected on that.

The children's books cost extra about 8 euro for the Junior Infant book.

Last year I went to a presentation about the new scheme where I met Martina

Ní Fhátharta and Seán de Brún - the creators of the new program.

I am acquainted with Seán (nice man). He comes from a village near me.

I have no invested interest in promoting the scheme. I have just met him a few

times.

Ok I do waffle on.

But Seán and Martina were only thinking about the program in regards to

teachers. Maybe they have ideas about parental involvement? I don't know.

If you have no objection I can contact Seán tomorrow and ask him?

Croissant might know Seán as well?

You could also look at Séideán Sí. It's used primarily in Gaelscoileanna. The

program gives you the 3 canúintí. Bua na Cainte was based on Séideán Sí.

All the best!

The Irish language is failing.

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