The Irish language is failing.

Mumha

Aineoil wrote: »

That's a very sweeping statement. People who live in the Gaeltacht areas of Ireland speak Irish just as you speak English.

It might be better for you if there weren't Gaeltacht areas, as they hold themselves as the "keepers of the flame" jealously. It's almost like if you're not born with the peeling of Bow Bells, you're not a real Cockney. And unfortunately that follows through in positions of influence, where those are looked down on for not being Gaelgoirs. Look at the uproar at Joe McHugh's appointment, and even though he threw himself into the learning of the language, I've still read comments deriding him, rather than being inclusive.

Let's face it, the Irish Language "industry" is simply an effort to suck more and more public money from the Government, or EU, for the cosy cartel.

briany

Dughorm wrote: »

You haven't given persuasive reasons to not learn the language. We can always learn other things but that can be an addition.

The question is not why one should or shouldn't learn Irish, the question is what bumps it up high enough on the list of priorities vs. all the other things a person could be learning. Yes, Irish can be an addition, but there are only so many hours in the day.

Mumha

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Congratulations kid you'll never use Irish again. I hope all that time spent learning it was worth it.

A relation of mine is studying to be a primary teacher at the moment, and has been driven demented by a w@nker of a Gaelgoir who is making her life hell over the standard of her Irish. It's disgraceful that someone who would make a wonderful primary school teacher, and has reasonable Irish as it is, is being held to ransom by jackbooted Gaelgoir.

Grayson

Do You Even Squat wrote: »

Just finished my HL Irish paper 2 today. I'm hoping for at least an A2. It's pretty sad that by the time I'm 30, I'll have the same level of Irish as the foundation level students in my year.

Probably the level of a first year student.

Bayberry

dlouth15 wrote: »

But the main advantage is that he will get a good result in Honours Irish. I wonder how much he will use it 4 or 5 years from now.

Probably the same use that many of the people who do honours English, honours Maths, honours Geography, honours Biology etc.

People do 6-8 subjects at leaving cert level. Most of them will go on to do a 3rd level course that really only makes use of 2 or 3 of them to any great extent, maybe 4 if they do a science course.

The other subjects at leaving cert weren't a total waste, but nobody seems to have the same chip on their shoulder about them that they have about Irish.

Dughorm

Do You Even Squat wrote: »

Never did algebra or geometry in primary school but at least i got to know how to conjugate verbs in the past tense. Spent over 3 hours a week in irish class and 3 hours a week studying irish over 6 years. Time well spent

If you're confident of an A2 as Gaeilge then you probably have a reasonable command of the language - have you gone beyond the curriculum in any way?

Have you looked at a TG4 documentary? Have you ever bought a book in Irish if you like reading? Considered joining a ciorcal gaeilge?

The great thing for you is that all those hours you have put in are behind you now - it's your choice as to whether you now want to use your Irish skills for your college course if that's the route you'll pursue or just for the pure enjoyment of it or not at all. It's up to the individual, but your education has given you these options. Go n-éirí leat

Mumha

briany wrote: »

The question is not why one should or shouldn't learn Irish, the question is what bumps it up high enough on the list of priorities vs. all the other things a person could be learning. Yes, Irish can be an addition, but there are only so many hours in the day.

I personally have no problem with Irish being taught in Primary School, though I wish they would teach a foreign language as well, from such a young age. However, compulsory Irish should go, in secondary schools, or make a second language compulsory and that could be Irish, French or whatever.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You haven't given persuasive reasons to not learn the language. We can always learn other things but that can be an addition.

Can I ask if you are immortal? Otherwise this is instantly demonstrably false.

Dughorm

briany wrote: »

The question is not why one should or shouldn't learn Irish, the question is what bumps it up high enough on the list of priorities vs. all the other things a person could be learning. Yes, Irish can be an addition, but there are only so many hours in the day.

That comes back to your philosophy of education. I think Irish should be core and not a choice. It is not unusual that countries' national languages form part of their core curriculum.

I think the present curriculum broadly addresses that balance between core and individual priorities. It could be improved in the ways I outlined previously.

The student in the post above now has an education, which because Irish forms part of it, allows him/her to use the language to advance his career, enjoy a substantial portion of Irish culture past and present and have an additional means of communication. Well rounded education in my view.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can I ask if you are immortal? Otherwise this is instantly demonstrably false.

Haha, I'd say you've been waiting a while for that opportunity :P

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Because of I've better things to do with my life than learn how to speak a language which will be guaranteed 100% entirely useless for any conceivable purpose?

But that's not correct.

How can you become a primary school teacher without Irish?

How can you sing the national anthem at any soccer/GAA game without Irish?

How can you get the shift at a céilí in the Gaeltacht without at least a cúpla focal?

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote: »

That comes back to your philosophy of education. I think Irish should be core and not a choice. It is not unusual that countries' national languages form part of their core curriculum.

I think the present curriculum broadly addresses that balance between core and individual priorities. It could be improved in the ways I outlined previously.

The student in the post above now has an education, which because Irish forms part of it, allows him/her to use the language to advance his career, enjoy a substantial portion of Irish culture past and present and have an additional means of communication. Well rounded education in my view.

But it is unusual that a country's national language is spoken outside of school by less than 50% (I'm unsure how low to go) of the population.

I don't have a major problem with Irish in primary schools, kids at that age are too young to think that Irish is waste of time (or at least I was). It's only as they get older that they begin to start questioning things, and why we're obliged to learn a language which the rest of the grown up population doesn't use is a pretty obvious question.

You mentioned earlier the burden isn't on you to prove why Irish is worth learning, but it is. When you insist on taking time from a student and telling them they have to learn Irish during that time (which is what the state is doing) then I think it's only fair that the onus is on you to explain why. Making Irish optional does not deprive anybody of their right to study Irish, compulsory Irish deprives students of time they could be spending learning a subject they deem more appropriate to their future careers or even just a subject they enjoy.

I don't see why people should have to justify offering a choice

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

But that's not correct.

How can you become a primary school teacher without Irish?

Well we have a decent definition of a circular answer here anyway for you...

Mumha

Dughorm wrote: »

But that's not correct.

How can you become a primary school teacher without Irish? See above

How can you sing the national anthem at any soccer/GAA game without Irish? Use the English version/Irish Phonetics that the lrish Anglos use

How can you get the shift at a céilí in the Gaeltacht without at least a cúpla focal? Let them see the size of your wallet i do phoca

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Haha, I'd say you've been waiting a while for that opportunity :P

Haha indeed. Are you going to answer it then or not?

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

But it is unusual that a country's national language is spoken outside of school by less than 50% (I'm unsure how low to go) of the population.

True.

I don't have a major problem with Irish in primary schools, kids at that age are too young to think that Irish is waste of time (or at least I was). It's only as they get older that they begin to start questioning things, and why we're obliged to learn a language which the rest of the grown up population doesn't use is a pretty obvious question.

I'd agree with you, but we have to be consistent here - the majority of the English course is poetry, drama and Shakespeare - topics which the majority of the public don't use either (i'm guessing... not claiming to be an expert here).

So perhaps you are of the option that all subjects should be optional - in which case Irish would be no different.

But that isn't my philosophy of education as I explained above.

You mentioned earlier the burden isn't on you to prove why Irish is worth learning, but it is. When you insist on taking time from a student and telling them they have to learn Irish during that time (which is what the state is doing) then I think it's only fair that the onus is on you to explain why. Making Irish optional does not deprive anybody of their right to study Irish, compulsory Irish deprives students of time they could be spending learning a subject they deem more appropriate to their future careers or even just a subject they enjoy.

I don't see why people should have to justify offering a choice

That logic applies to all compulsory subjects. As I explained above, I think we have a fair balance between core and choice subjects. The content of those core subjects is certainly up for debate in my opinion.

Mumha

FunLover18 wrote: »

But it is unusual that a country's national language is spoken outside of school by less than 50% (I'm unsure how low to go) of the population.

I don't have a major problem with Irish in primary schools, kids at that age are too young to think that Irish is waste of time (or at least I was). It's only as they get older that they begin to start questioning things, and why we're obliged to learn a language which the rest of the grown up population doesn't use is a pretty obvious question.

You mentioned earlier the burden isn't on you to prove why Irish is worth learning, but it is. When you insist on taking time from a student and telling them they have to learn Irish during that time (which is what the state is doing) then I think it's only fair that the onus is on you to explain why. Making Irish optional does not deprive anybody of their right to study Irish, compulsory Irish deprives students of time they could be spending learning a subject they deem more appropriate to their future careers or even just a subject they enjoy.

I don't see why people should have to justify offering a choice

2011 figures


Speaks Irish daily outside the education system
Both sexes
All ages 77,185

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Haha indeed. Are you going to answer it then or not?

Am I immortal? - I'll tell you after I'm dead - we can be like the squabbling corpses in Cré na Cille

See http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/cr%C3%A9-na-cille-%C3%B3-cadhain-s-squabbling-corpses-revived-in-english-1.2154852

Dughorm

Originally Posted by Dan_Solo
Because of I've better things to do with my life than learn how to speak a language which will be guaranteed 100% entirely useless for any conceivable purpose?

Originally Posted by Dughorm
But that's not correct.

How can you become a primary school teacher without Irish?

Originally Posted by Dan_Solo
Well we have a decent definition of a circular answer here anyway for you...

You asked - I answered...

Not 100% entirely useless at the moment - whether you want it to be might be another question though!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Am I immortal? - I'll tell you after I'm dead - we can be like the squabbling corpses in Cré na Cille

See http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/cr%C3%A9-na-cille-%C3%B3-cadhain-s-squabbling-corpses-revived-in-english-1.2154852

Yes, also amazingly hilarious. Clap clap.
Now, are you still insisting there is "always" time to learn anything you want? Or is learning Irish some magical extra time added to your lifespan?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You asked - I answered...

Not 100% entirely useless at the moment - whether you want it to be might be another question though!

So you had what
1. Torturing the next generation with a useless almost extinct language.
2. Learning what some specific Irish song is about, because just reading the words in English wouldn't do the job. Oh no, couple of 100 hours learning a new language to get some tiny nuance in an anthem where the lyrics don't matter a **** to anybody anyway.
3. Getting a shift at a ceilidh.

Were you whining something earlier about making a persuasive case?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, also amazingly hilarious. Clap clap.
Now, are you still insisting there is "always" time to learn anything you want? Or is learning Irish some magical extra time added to your lifespan?

Well I do endeavour to keep you entertained... have to throw you the odd sprat!
I'll keep the Breadán Feasa to myself then...

(Explainer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_of_Knowledge)

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So you had what
1. Torturing the next generation with a useless almost extinct language.
2. Learning what some specific Irish song is about, because just reading the words in English wouldn't do the job. Oh no, couple of 100 hours learning a new language to get some tiny nuance in an anthem where the lyrics don't matter a **** to anybody anyway.
3. Getting a shift at a ceilidh.

Were you whining something earlier about making a persuasive case?

I'd agree with you on the torturing part - that's criminal in my view and not necessary. There are so many creative ways of learning languages and it pains me that teachers aren't given the flexibility to be creative with Irish in this way.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Well I do endeavour to keep you entertained... have to throw you the odd sprat!
I'll keep the Breadán Feasa to myself then...

(Explainer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_of_Knowledge)

That's three times I've asked you to explain how there is an infinite amount of time in your life to learn anything you want.
And three time you've refused to answer.
Which is, in itself, as much an answer as anybody needs.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I'd agree with you on the torturing part - that's criminal in my view and not necessary. There are so many creative ways of learning languages and it pains me that teachers aren't given the flexibility to be creative with Irish in this way.

This again for the millionth time.
It isn't "how Irish is being taught" is the problem.
Nobody wants to learn it or speak it at all.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's three times I've asked you to explain how there is an infinite amount of time in your life to learn anything you want.
And three time you've refused to answer.
Which is, in itself, as much an answer as anybody needs.

An answer to what though? You seem to think you have discovered an unassailable argument which is relevant?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This again for the millionth time.
It isn't "how Irish is being taught" is the problem.
Nobody wants to learn it or speak it at all.

Your omniscience regarding this and questions to do with the space-time continuum are impressive. Maith thú!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

An answer to what though? You seem to think you have discovered an unassailable argument which is relevant?

You yourself thought it was relevant when you said there's "always" time to learn a new language such as Irish (despite it being a big fat waste of time).
Are you going to explain this "always" or just retract it?
Let me guess, option three, break your arse to avoid the question. Yet again.

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote: »

I'd agree with you, but we have to be consistent here - the majority of the English course is poetry, drama and Shakespeare - topics which the majority of the public don't use either (i'm guessing... not claiming to be an expert here).

So perhaps you are of the option that all subjects should be optional - in which case Irish would be no different.

But that isn't my philosophy of education as I explained above.

The English curriculum can afford to be poetry, drama, and Shakespeare because we're fluent in it. It's not just about teaching us the language it's about teaching us critique and analysis which can applied to every day conversation and online discussions.

I think you suggested earlier that there could be 2 Irish subjects, a mandatory conversational class, and an optional subject for poetry and literature. I think this is unnecessary; If Irish were taught properly and conversationally in primary school students should be educated enough in it come LC to study poetry, etc. What would be the focal point of a conversation based Irish class at LC level?

I'll have to read back on your philosophy.

Dughorm wrote: »

That logic applies to all compulsory subjects. As I explained above, I think we have a fair balance between core and choice subjects. The content of those core subjects is certainly up for debate in my opinion.

Irish is the only subject that the department of education says students must study at Leaving Cert level. Compulsory Maths and English seems to be down to schools, probably because of course requirements or something like that. The chances are even if the state did remove mandatory Irish at LC the schools might still keep it in place given that all NUIs require Irish (although from a previous thread on the topic I seem to remember someone saying that that was easy to get around).

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Your omniscience regarding this and questions to do with the space-time continuum are impressive. Maith thú!

Meaningless drivel.