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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭d2ww


    "Really?" Yes.

    Unless you can prove otherwise, your view is little more than wishful thinking that the people of Ireland are actually in love with the Irish language, yet mysteriously refuse to learn and use it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I did religion as the bull**** compulsory class about stds and personality types. The school across the road took it as an exam subject and did history etc.

    I had lessons in dogma and doctrine. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,750 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    It raises the bigger question of should we be teaching it at all. I read on another forum recently how foreign science students in Ireland are amazed that first year of undergrad degrees is spent bringing everyone up to the level that they were at in school. There isn't much ICT or technology teaching in school and I think nowadays more and more people are going to need this even where it isn't there core role. That 40 minutes every day could be put to better use. The education system should be preparing students as best it can for the world they live in today, not pandering to the sentimental or political ideas from the past.

    To be honest it's not the worst thing to be learning. I'd to learn 3 text books of crap for junior cert religion. I don't mind a class a week on our own religion but I don't give a crap where the Muslims meet up for the annual booze up.

    Why couldn't that time and effort have been spent learning how to computer program. would have made college a hell of a lot easier. Also wasting time learning English poems and stories (same with Irish).

    And history. Tone it down a bit. nobody really gives a **** what houses looked like 5 thousand years ago. So much pointless **** was forced into my brain for the junior I'm still trying to clear some of it out until this day.

    God school could have been so enjoyable if they dumped history and religion and tone English down to simply reading and writing skills plus irish to reading and writing only.

    Still can't to this day understand how computer programming is not mandatory across all students for the junior cert. There is massive job potential and future growth in this area.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    I don't mind a class a week on our own religion
    Checks mass attendance... nope.
    Same goes for Irish of course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,318 ✭✭✭✭briany


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    To be honest it's not the worst thing to be learning. I'd to learn 3 text books of crap for junior cert religion. I don't mind a class a week on our own religion but I don't give a crap where the Muslims meet up for the annual booze up.

    Why couldn't that time and effort have been spent learning how to computer program. would have made college a hell of a lot easier. Also wasting time learning English poems and stories (same with Irish).

    And history. Tone it down a bit. nobody really gives a **** what houses looked like 5 thousand years ago. So much pointless **** was forced into my brain for the junior I'm still trying to clear some of it out until this day.

    God school could have been so enjoyable if they dumped history and religion and tone English down to simply reading and writing skills plus irish to reading and writing only.

    Still can't to this day understand how computer programming is not mandatory across all students for the junior cert. There is massive job potential and future growth in this area.

    I've heard the (conspiracy) theory that school, particularly primary school, is more of an instrument to indoctrinate kids into wider society than a place where they go to learn valuable skills that couldn't be learned elsewhere. A place where they go to essentially be babysat while their parents work, where they learn to work to a schedule, accept authority figures and cooperate with peers outside of their family/community, and take in a world view as mandated by the state. Skills pertaining to the interests of the individual, or many practical everyday skills can wait until later, in or around adulthood, it would seem.

    Reading and Maths are the two basic things that most kids take out of primary. Ideally, primary education would feature a larger component to stimulate the individual interests and curiosities of kids while also teaching some practical skills. This, of course, would lead to chaos in the curriculum. In the connected age, it's harder and harder to understand where school really fits as an educational tool as a child can hop on a computer (with the requisite reading and writing skills) and learn whatever they want and with much greater accuracy and depth than most of us ever had access to as kids.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    But it will never, ever, ever be as useful as English, most people native or more proficient language. Switching to Irish "because we learned it in school" would be the same as insisting on speaking in English without using words starting with a vowel just to make it harder. Nobody would bother.

    That's a separate issue. I never claimed irish would be as useful as English. I don't believe any credible irish proponent wants irish to replace English as the language of commerce here.

    It's the type of irish learned at present which I believe is not useful. Technical vocab about debates, poetry etc...is being learned instead of vocab to hold a simple conversation.

    Why is being able to hold a conversation in a second language useful? I think that doesn't need to be explained.

    Why should that language be irish? I don't see why not. After all we all appear agreed that the foundation should be mandatory in primary school. Why not build on it. People can choose additional languages to begin from stratch like they do at present.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    smash wrote: »
    Be it chemistry, biology, physics or computer science, a science subject will be beneficial in life. Irish for the most part wont..

    I did chemistry in the LC, got an A in it and have never used it since. Have used irish more .

    Not convinced by your argument that a science subject should be mandatory.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭johnny osbourne


    how do you say - i'm happy- in irish

    my guess is, tá gáire orm, or tá mé sásta, but neither sound right?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why is being able to hold a conversation in a second language useful? I think that doesn't need to be explained.
    No, no, do go ahead. "so nobody will know when we're insulting them amongst ourselves"? That sort of thing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I don't believe any credible irish proponent wants irish to replace English as the language of commerce here.
    Conradh Na Gaelige, which claims to represent the Irish-language 'community' wants to replace English with Irish as the common tongue of Ireland. It's the reason for the organisation's existence for the past 100 years and this aim was ratified as recently as 2008.

    It's a very influential organisation, having lobbied the FF government to implement the Official Languages Act and which now threatens to have its supporters vote against the government if it interferes with the compulsory-Irish policy in schools. So, while I think Conradh's aim is absurd, it appears to have some credible influence on Irish life. This absurdity, of course undermines the Conradh's respect among the majority population.

    Second language choices should certainly include Irish but it should be optional. After 100 years, you'd think it would be obvious that you cannot force people to speak Irish.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    how do you say - i'm happy- in irish

    my guess is, tá gáire orm, or tá mé sásta, but neither sound right?

    Tá áthas orm...



    Couldn't resist :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why is being able to hold a conversation in a second language useful? I think that doesn't need to be explained.

    Why not ancient Aramaic?

    I don't think anyone questions the benefits of an extra language but what the language is. Latin would be more valuable to most people. It's handy for sciences. It's also very useful fo learning other European languages.

    I did latin in secondary school. The weird thing is that I was actually more comfortable with it after a year than I was with Irish


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,318 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I did chemistry in the LC, got an A in it and have never used it since. Have used irish more .

    Not convinced by your argument that a science subject should be mandatory.

    Did Physics and got an A in that. Haven't used it since. Have used Irish less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    briany wrote: »
    Did Physics and got an A in that. Haven't used it since. Have used Irish less.

    So you do not walk or run?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Conradh Na Gaelige, which claims to represent the Irish-language 'community' wants to replace English with Irish as the common tongue of Ireland.
    ...
    So, while I think Conradh's aim is absurd, it appears to have some credible influence on Irish life. This absurdity, of course undermines the Conradh's respect among the majority population.

    Second language choices should certainly include Irish but it should be optional. After 100 years, you'd think it would be obvious that you cannot force people to speak Irish.

    I said credible proponents. As you say yourself those goals are absurd.

    Surely then their influence is incredible rather than credible :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Grayson wrote: »
    I don't think anyone questions the benefits of an extra language
    Well actually I do when you have to use valuable school time learning it when you could be doing something useful for yourself/society/humanity instead.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,318 ✭✭✭✭briany


    So you do not walk or run?

    Do no chemical processes happen inside Dughorm's body?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭johnny osbourne


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Tá áthas orm...

    :)

    ok was thinking of that too, still doesn't sound right,

    i wanted to say , we are happy and healthy so i'm gonna go with, tá muid sláinte agus happy :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    ok was thinking of that too, still doesn't sound right,

    i wanted to say , we are happy and healthy so i'm gonna go with, tá muid sláinte agus happy :)
    Neatly proving the fact that for just about everybody it's easier and better to just use English in the first place...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Grayson wrote: »
    Why not ancient Aramaic?

    Isn't that a religious language? Sure do we really need more religion in schools??
    Grayson wrote: »

    I don't think anyone questions the benefits of an extra language but what the language is. Latin would be more valuable to most people....

    I did latin in secondary school. The weird thing is that I was actually more comfortable with it after a year than I was with Irish

    Which says a lot about (I) the way you were taught and (ii) what you were taught.

    Tell me, as a latin scholar, you realise that the tiseal ginideach was the genetive case in latin? I sure didnt... if anything learning latin helped me learn more irish. Maybe the answer is have both latin and irish mandatory

    /joke


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    briany wrote: »
    Do no chemical processes happen inside Dughorm's body?

    Better ask him that.
    He agrees with me so therefore, you know?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    briany wrote: »
    Did Physics and got an A in that. Haven't used it since. Have used Irish less.

    Funnily enough I wish I did physics as it's actually a hobby of mine now!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Better ask him that.
    He agrees with me so therefore, you know?

    Surely those are biochemical processes? Should have done biology too darn it!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Isn't that a religious language? Sure do we really need more religion in schools??
    As "religious" as Latin is. Or any other language that anybody's ever used to convey religion.
    So no actually.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Neatly proving the fact that for just about everybody it's easier and better to just use English in the first place...

    Isn't that circular logic though... it's easier for a native speaker to use their native language therefore it's easier and better for them to do so...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,318 ✭✭✭✭briany


    People also say that Latin's a good primer for further study into the modern Romance languages that are based upon it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Grayson wrote: »


    I did latin in secondary school. The weird thing is that I was actually more comfortable with it after a year than I was with Irish

    I did Latin too. I'm not too sure if many schools do it today. I loved Latin and

    Irish, but then again I love languages. I was very lucky in the fact that the

    secondary school I went to valued languages. We did French, German, Irish and

    Latin in first year. You chose the languages you wanted to learn at the end of first year.

    Actually Latin is a brilliant language to explore. I obviously can't speak Latin

    as we were taught it as a dead language.

    But I do have a greater understanding of English having been exposed to Latin.



    Learning Irish has many benefits too. At the ripe old age of 40 I went to UCG to

    learn Italian. Before I did the course you could write on a postage stamp the

    amount of Italian I knew. It was an exam course. I am very competitive so I

    wanted to do well.

    Irish helped me no end to learn Italian. Sounds weird but it's the truth.

    So to add to the thread, maybe learning another language might help to learn

    another?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Isn't that circular logic though... it's easier for a native speaker to use their native language therefore it's easier and better for them to do so...

    I think it might just be logic logic. In a nation of native English speakers speaking English is the easiest way to go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    As "religious" as Latin is. Or any other language that anybody's ever used to convey religion.
    So no actually.
    Not to go off topic but apparently there are religious languages see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language

    I was mixing up hebrew with ancient Aramaic my apologies


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Isn't that circular logic though... it's easier for a native speaker to use their native language therefore it's easier and better for them to do so...
    Yeah, but that's English for just about everybody, not Irish. Don't see how that's helping the pro-compulsory case one bit.


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