The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I never said that Irish language is the only part that's important to Irish identity?

Well tell us what is then. Not going to are you, because anything close to a proper answer will be instantly crushed and you know it.

Dan_Solo

indioblack wrote: »

So all my relatives in Cork are Anglophiles? Can't wait to tell them!

And I guess any IRA men who died fighting the English but couldn't speak Irish were Anglophiles all along too!

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well tell us what is then. Not going to are you, because anything close to a proper answer will be instantly crushed and you know it.

What is or isn't Irish identity isn't (i) for me to decide and (ii) relevant to this discussion about whether Irish should be compulsory in schools.

I don't think your post recognises either that there might be Irish identities

You still haven't explained why you think it is ok to spend mandatory time in Primary schools on learning Irish but not secondary school.

That doesn't appear a consistent position to me given your reason that effectively "Irish is a waste of time".

Also when you say that "a proper answer will be instantly crushed" - this doesn't make sense - how could a "proper" answer be instantly crushed if it's a "proper" answer?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

What is or isn't Irish identity isn't (i) for me to decide and (ii) relevant to this discussion about whether Irish should be compulsory in schools.

I don't think your post recognises either that there might be Irish identities

You still haven't explained why you think it is ok to spend mandatory time in Primary schools on learning Irish but not secondary school.

That doesn't appear a consistent position to me given your reason that effectively "Irish is a waste of time".

Also when you say that "a proper answer will be instantly crushed" - this doesn't make sense - how could a "proper" answer be instantly crushed if it's a "proper" answer?

You know full well what I said. Any definitive answer as to what Irish identity IS will be immediately squashed. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. And you know well that's what I meant by "proper". You're not fooling anybody. Hence you've now meandered off into the quite hilarious "Irish identities". What next? Every person in the world has their own identity perhaps? So why try to impose or define these identities? What would be the purpose? How can you then tell anybody that the Irish language should be part of any "Irish identity"?
BTW, I already answered the primary/secondary thing. More for an easy life than anything for now. Once it's out of secondary I'd be all for removing it completely. You are 100% correct: it is a waste of time to force anybody to learn it at any level.

HIB

tipparetops wrote: »

I do not think anyone can be confident in their national identity if they cannot speak their own language.

Isn't this a non sensical statement?

I mean....If it's their national identity, then by definition they see themselves as having close links to or an affinity with that nation. So, of course they're comfortable with it.

HIB

tipparetops wrote: »

No I do not need to think about it,
if you have your own language you are a real country,
If your language is given to you by way of occupation by a foreign power you have to ask, What are you?

You really need to buy a dictionary....an English one.

A country is "a nation with its own government occupying a particular territory "

Language has nothing to do with it.

Your own notions of what constitute "nationhood" will not alter the meaning the rest of the English speaking world assigns to the term.

dr.fuzzenstein

10 internet points who recognises this:

The President’s speech: ‘- Gaels! he said, it delights my Gaelic heart to be here today speaking Gaelic with you at this Gaelic feis in the centre of the Gaeltacht. May I state that I am a Gael. I’m Gaelic from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet - Gaelic front and back, above and below. Likewise, you are all truly Gaelic. We are all Gaelic Gaels of Gaelic lineage. He who is Gaelic, will be Gaelic evermore. I myself have spoken not a word except Gaelic since the day I was born - just like you - and every sentence I’ve ever uttered has been on the subject of Gaelic. If we’re truly Gaelic, we must constantly discuss the question of the Gaelic revival and the question of Gaelicism. There is no use in having Gaelic, if we converse in it on non-Gaelic topics. He who speaks Gaelic but fails to discuss the language question is not truly Gaelic in his heart; such conduct is of no benefit to Gaelicism because he only jeers at Gaelic and reviles the Gaels. There is nothing in this life so nice and so Gaelic as truly true Gaelic Gaels who speak in true Gaelic Gaelic about the truly Gaelic language. I hereby declare this feis to be Gaelically open! Up the Gaels! Long live the Gaelic tongue! / When this noble Gael sat down on his Gaelic backside, a great tumult and hand-clapping arose throughout the assembly.’

briany

Dughorm wrote: »

What is or isn't Irish identity isn't (i) for me to decide and (ii) relevant to this discussion about whether Irish should be compulsory in schools.

I don't think your post recognises either that there might be Irish identities

You still haven't explained why you think it is ok to spend mandatory time in Primary schools on learning Irish but not secondary school.

That doesn't appear a consistent position to me given your reason that effectively "Irish is a waste of time".

Also when you say that "a proper answer will be instantly crushed" - this doesn't make sense - how could a "proper" answer be instantly crushed if it's a "proper" answer?

Most young children aren't that focused and don't usually have a well developed sense of themselves or what they want to do. For that reason, it makes sense to have a set curriculum for them before they hit their teenage years, which is typically when most people begin to find the thing they're interested in, their course in life. At that point, it makes less sense to continue with compulsory education in pretty much any subject because students should be free to explore their options. At that point, Irish should be become an option, along with everything else.

FunLover18

tipparetops wrote:

Ok which are you - not able to learn it or do not want to learn it.

From your posts I'm trying to figure out what you actually want for the language. You either want everyone forced to learn it in the hope they might succeed and join you in the glow of true Irishness, or you want them forced to learn it and fail so you can have the glow all to yourself and be gloriously smug about it.

Either way the idea that you have the right to define or question someone else's national identity based on their choice of language is bollocks and I think you're extremely lucky that previous posters haven't taken more offence.

Your superiority complex is a wonder to behold as it is one of the reasons that Irish speakers have a bad name amongst many in this country, thankfully I'm lucky enough to know plenty of Irish speakers who don't treat me like a lesser Irishman and it's such a shame that your attitude exists because the imaginary codependency you've placed between the language and Irish identity is doing far more damage to the language than any 'laziness' or 'oafishness' but of course you can't or won't see that in the responses you've received, but in your defence English is only your second language.

HIB

briany wrote: »

The argument being made by some is that we're losing Irish and that's tragic because we're losing part of our identity, or, indeed our soul, as some might put it. We're losing Catholicism as well, as the country is becoming ever more secular, but why wouldn't Catholicism be just as much a part of the Irish identity as Irish is? Catholicism has been here for over 1500 years, the people have fought hard to retain it, it's informed many aspects of daily life and been much more than an ideology. In fact, it's outlasted the Irish language as a relevant thing on most of the island. I say they are historically equally important facets of the culture of the people and for it to be fashionable to bemoan the loss of one and silently cheerlead the loss of another as an irrelevance is a total hypocrisy, in my view. You have to recognise that all facets of culture can become irrelevant, no matter how entrenched they might have once been.

.

Very well said.

Culture is an evolving thing. The Irish language is probably already approaching the end of its lifecycle. It's natural to feel a little nostalgic when things change but attempting a King Canute usually doesn't help!

In practical terms, I find nationality only matters in the sense that those of the same nationality tend to have a similar set of experiences/influences. We grew up with the same TV shows, know the same celebrities and sports stars, understand each others slang,etc etc. Those things are the only reason it's sometimes easier to chat to other Irish people rather than foreigners.

tipparetops

A lot of jealousy here towards Irish speakers, especially when the thorny issue of patriotism is risen.
I do not link Irish patriotism with the IRA, like some posters here.
I do not relate Irish patriotism with child killers. some posters here need to get the chip off their shoulder.

PopePalpatine

I suppose I'd be jealous when you lot have cushy jobs-for-life in the civil service translating rarely-read documents into a language that will make them even more rarely read.

Dan_Solo

tipparetops wrote: »

A lot of jealousy here towards Irish speakers, especially when the thorny issue of patriotism is risen.
I do not link Irish patriotism with the IRA, like some posters here.
I do not relate Irish patriotism with child killers. some posters here need to get the chip off their shoulder.

It doesn't matter whether YOU link it or not. People who were willing to die for what THEY felt was Irish patriotism are now apparently Anglophiles because they spoke English. And if an Eskimo in Alaska learns Irish he's apparently now an Irishman while a Celtic shirt wearing lad from Ballybrack isn't because he can't speak it.
Again you're inventing jealousy which absolutely nobody here has shown. While you were learning Irish I was doing something else I wanted to do. Why would I be jealous when I didn't want to do Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

A lot of jealousy here towards Irish speakers, especially when the thorny issue of patriotism is risen.
I do not link Irish patriotism with the IRA, like some posters here.
I do not relate Irish patriotism with child killers. some posters here need to get the chip off their shoulder.

Clearly you haven't read a single post that debunked your ideas.

Patriotism, as I said earlier, is for those who are too lazy to think for themselves.

briany

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Clearly you haven't read a single post that debunked your ideas.

Patriotism, as I said earlier, is for those who are too lazy to think for themselves.

To be fair, if one person believes that Irish identity is inextricably tied to speaking Irish, you can't really talk them out of it anymore than they could talk you into it. I think this thread has made about as much progress as it's going to.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

briany wrote: »

To be fair, if one person believes that Irish identity is inextricably tied to speaking Irish, you can't really talk them out of it anymore than they could talk you into it. I think this thread has made about as much progress as it's going to.

True - that was pretty much my closing case. Unless he responds to previous points with something not rehashed, which I don't think he's capable of.

FunLover18

tipparetops wrote: »

A lot of jealousy here towards Irish speakers, especially when the thorny issue of patriotism is risen.
I do not link Irish patriotism with the IRA, like some posters here.
I do not relate Irish patriotism with child killers. some posters here need to get the chip off their shoulder.

People getting thorny when their national identity is questioned over such a trivial issue by someone who has no right and zero basis on which to do so? Who'd have thought it possible?

You're telling us we have a chip on our shoulders when you're the one calling non Irish speakers 'Anglophiles'.

Dan_Solo

briany wrote: »

To be fair, if one person believes that Irish identity is inextricably tied to speaking Irish, you can't really talk them out of it anymore than they could talk you into it. I think this thread has made about as much progress as it's going to.

I've no problem with anybody saying their own identity is due to factors X, Y and Z. Telling other people the minimum specs to be Irish is a load of crap though.

briany

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've no problem with anybody saying their own identity is due to factors X, Y and Z. Telling other people the minimum specs to be Irish is a load of crap though.

True. Also a point we'd do well to remember when talking about Irish-Americans.

dr.fuzzenstein

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I suppose I'd be jealous when you lot have cushy jobs-for-life in the civil service translating rarely-read documents into a language that will make them even more rarely read.

That is and has always been a racket. Jobs where the actual amount of work done per day is around the 20 minute mark and the rest is taken up with Facebook, coffee breaks, nipping into town for a bit or just dossing.
It's disgusting, it's wrong and where the hell do I apply?!

I used to work as a field technician repairing and setting up printers, copiers and faxes, any office that was in any way state run and in any way linked to "proper Irish activities" was exactly like that. You could be in there for 2-3 hours breaking your balls on their printers and copiers while they stood around gossiping.
It is the biggest doss going in Ireland. If you can get a job there, DO IT! You'll never work again in your life.

LorMal

wendell borton wrote: »

The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

it would be really silly for us all to learn Welsh - its not even spoken here

briany

There is another fallacy that strong proponents of the Irish language tend to use and that is this - Irish people are exceptionally lazy and don't care about their language, as if to say that were unnatural. 'Why can't we be like our fellow man on the continent who keeps their language?', they say. I put it to you, that we are exactly like our fellow man on the continent. I present a list of all the endangered languages in Europe.

As you can see, quite a number of 'lazy' people everywhere. Languages on the way out to beat the band. Some people need to wake up the reality of why a language dies.

tipparetops

The posters here remind me of Irish people I have met over the years, the first to get the Irish songs going, the first to boo England, throwing the beers into themselves. Throw a few Irish words at them and you can see the anger and jealousy in their eyes.

I detest the drinking culture, the false bravado, the ignorance of our own language, the obsession with a certain foreign sport.
there is people in this country, born and bred, who speak like yanks/brits.
It is hilarious and the joke is on ye.

dr.fuzzenstein

briany wrote: »

There is another fallacy that strong proponents of the Irish language tend to use and that is this - Irish people are exceptionally lazy and don't care about their language, as if to say that were unnatural. 'Why can't we be like our fellow man on the continent who keeps their language?', they say. I put it to you, that we are exactly like our fellow man on the continent. I present a list of all the endangered languages in Europe.

As you can see, quite a number of 'lazy' people everywhere. Languages on the way out to beat the band. Some people need to wake up the reality of why a language dies.

Nothing can last forever. We need to bemoan many great traditiones that are lost, flint knapper, hooper, wheelwright, farrier and many more. Should we spend millions to make sure these professions are kept alive? Ancient mesopotamian isn't spoken anymore.
Will we still speak English in 2000 years time? Maybe Esperanto will be the number 1 language.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

LorMal wrote: »

it would be really silly for us all to learn Welsh - its not even spoken here

Nor for that matter is Irish

Iwasfrozen

tipparetops wrote: »

The posters here remind me of Irish people I have met over the years, the first to get the Irish songs going, the first to boo England, throwing the beers into themselves. Throw a few Irish words at them and you can see the anger and jealousy in their eyes.

I detest the drinking culture, the false bravado, the ignorance of our own language, the obsession with a certain foreign sport.
there is people in this country, born and bred, who speak like yanks/brits.
It is hilarious and the joke is on ye.

I detest the drinking culture too but I detest the "I'm more Irish than you" mentality even more.

The Irish language is dying, get over it. The country has made its choice and Irish isn't coming back.

stefanovich

The English imposed their language and we took it like the cucks that we are. Also smoking ban and NCT.

briany

briany wrote: »

There is another fallacy that strong proponents of the Irish language tend to use and that is this - Irish people are exceptionally lazy and don't care about their language, as if to say that were unnatural. 'Why can't we be like our fellow man on the continent who keeps their language?', they say. I put it to you, that we are exactly like our fellow man on the continent. I present a list of all the endangered languages in Europe.

As you can see, quite a number of 'lazy' people everywhere. Languages on the way out to beat the band. Some people need to wake up the reality of why a language dies.

One of the main reasons for a language shift is simply down to having to deal with people who have a dominant language spoken by a much larger population.
The minority language speaker is always going to have to learn the major language as few if any speakers of the dominant language are going to bother to learn the minority language just to speak to maybe only one person or at most a small number ever.

There are many countries in Africa that have shifted to the European languages of the former colonialists, and most have continued with the process of shifting from their local languages in favour of English or French.

Maybe some will shift to Mandarin in the longer term future.

Grayson

stefanovich wrote: »

The English imposed their language and we took it like the cucks that we are. Also smoking ban and NCT.

What?

stefanovich

Grayson wrote: »

What?

We just accepted it like the cucks we are.