The Irish language is failing.

Going Strong · 03-06-2015 09:12AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That is just complete nonsense I haven't seen anything of the like.

How dare you question his in-depth research just like that. Sure hasn't he travelled the length and breadth of the country asking everyone their opinion on what they feel makes one 'Irish'. Granted, he never asked me but I'm sure that's just a minor oversight on his part and he'll be back to canvass my opinion soon enough.

Adamocovic · 03-06-2015 09:22AM

At the end of the day some people want to learn it, others don't. It's clear even from here.

The main thing , like stated a lot already, is making the language more practical. Teaching it for daily use rather than for writing reports on old irish books or poems. I know some would argue "there is no use for it in day to day living" which may be true in terms of work etc but if schools focused on teaching how to add it in when chatting it would be more succesful, just little things like talking about a match, something that happened, a film, etc. It is very handy abroad when you want to say something in private to someone who also knows it.

I know every now and then I use a sentence or two in conversation. Frankly most people don't like learning about poems and writing about books in English in school and thats a language we speak all the time, so a lot lose interest trying to do those things in a second language.

I'm not saying get rid of them, but maybe move the emphasis off of it, a large amount of teaching irish revolves around these things.

I still am under the opinion it wont improve until the teaching structure is revamped.

And I know some people argue there is no need for it and don't see it as a big thing to do with our cultural,which is a completely acceptable view, but a lot of people value it as they see it as uniquely Irish. I think the main thing is accepting that people have different opinions on it, it should not be compulsory for all of secondary school in my view, but should be in primary like the other subjects, just to get a feeling on whether the student wants to do it. I think teaching it also in the first year of secondary school (making it compulsory)and then making it an option like other subjects and languages would be beneficial, the people who have no interest don't have to learn it and then there is more time spent on teaching it to people who are interested.

Grayson · 03-06-2015 09:37AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It would have to go further than Gael School. All creches, pre-schools, primary schools, schools, colleges and universities should teach exclusively through Irish. All English lessons to be replaced by Irish. All government department face to face transactions, phone interactions and websites should be Irish only. This will include on-street personnel like the Gardai, customs, water department, right down to the street sweepers. All internal communication will be in Irish only. All state controlled TV and radio, the same. Surely RTE could be made to comply if they want their license fees. All staff in hospitals should communicate in Irish, except maybe in case of emergencies, then a translator should be made available. All Dail and parliament business, Irish only.
The above can be done immediately, since these are all government controlled outlets. Snapping the private sector into line would take a bit longer and cost a bit more, but with heavy incentives for all Irish content and hefty taxes for English language content, they could be whipped into shape. All English media content could finally be outlawed or heavily fined, Sky and other foreign language satellite providers would have to be made illegal, but Chorus and Saorview should be easily brought in line. The internet is a bit more tricky, but if the Chinese can do it, so can we. Or we could go for an "Intra Web", a self-contained Irish only network, foreign content could be requested, but those sites would have to be translated first. Google translate would be one way into Irish only only.
Otherwise we're just not taking this serious.
Of course it will become very difficult for foreigners to live and work here, especially if they fail the compulsory Irish exam they will have to pass on entry to the country in order to live and work here and foreign companies could face some challenges when interacting with the state, but all that can be overcome, with ever increasing propagation of the language.

I think someone mentioned this in the thread already but we have two official languages in our constitution. If you want to deny services in English then you'd need a referendum. Good luck with trying to get 50% of the people in the country to vote out the only language they speak

Adamocovic · 03-06-2015 09:41AM

Grayson wrote: »

I think someone mentioned this in the thread already but we have two official languages in our constitution. If you want to deny services in English then you'd need a referendum. Good luck with trying to get 50% of the people in the country to vote out the only language they speak

Just do the vote in Irish and maybe some will make the mistake of voting out English :pac:

corkonion · 03-06-2015 09:48AM

Leaving aside sentiment, there really is no practical use for Irish anymore. The 2011 Census, released by the Central Statistics Office Ireland (CSO), showed that Irish is only the third most spoken language in the country, after English and Polish. We are an english speaking country and using many hours of valuable teaching time on Irish does not add much to an overall education (same with religion). While much is made of our corporation rate tax structure for attracting foreign investment, we should not underrate the value of being an english speaking country. There are many Gael scoil schools there for those with a passion for Irish, but I believe that Irish should not be obligatory after national school.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2015 10:02AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That is just complete nonsense I haven't seen anything of the like.

That is massively unfair - you see it every time there's an Irish langauge thread on here!

Un Croissant · 03-06-2015 10:06AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It would have to go further than Gael School. All creches, pre-schools, primary schools, schools, colleges and universities should teach exclusively through Irish. All English lessons to be replaced by Irish. All government department face to face transactions, phone interactions and websites should be Irish only. This will include on-street personnel like the Gardai, customs, water department, right down to the street sweepers. All internal communication will be in Irish only. All state controlled TV and radio, the same. Surely RTE could be made to comply if they want their license fees. All staff in hospitals should communicate in Irish, except maybe in case of emergencies, then a translator should be made available. All Dail and parliament business, Irish only.
The above can be done immediately, since these are all government controlled outlets. Snapping the private sector into line would take a bit longer and cost a bit more, but with heavy incentives for all Irish content and hefty taxes for English language content, they could be whipped into shape. All English media content could finally be outlawed or heavily fined, Sky and other foreign language satellite providers would have to be made illegal, but Chorus and Saorview should be easily brought in line. The internet is a bit more tricky, but if the Chinese can do it, so can we. Or we could go for an "Intra Web", a self-contained Irish only network, foreign content could be requested, but those sites would have to be translated first. Google translate would be one way into Irish only only.
Otherwise we're just not taking this serious.
Of course it will become very difficult for foreigners to live and work here, especially if they fail the compulsory Irish exam they will have to pass on entry to the country in order to live and work here and foreign companies could face some challenges when interacting with the state, but all that can be overcome, with ever increasing propagation of the language.

**** me. Difficult for foreigners to work here, and everyone else.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2015 10:09AM

Un Croissant wrote: »

**** me. Difficult for foreigners to work here, and everyone else.

Probably part of the appeal of the idea. I'm also of the he's-being-sarcastic opinion, but it can be hard to tell sometimes.

Reiver · 03-06-2015 10:21AM

http://www.thejournal.ie/kate-shannon-ware-kerry-ireland-deportation-irish-speaking-children-2136598-Jun2015/

Irish speaking kids being deported is currently popular in the Journal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2015 10:32AM

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/kate-shannon-ware-kerry-ireland-deportation-irish-speaking-children-2136598-Jun2015/

Irish speaking kids being deported is currently popular in the Journal.

Irrelevant to discussion.

Bored_lad · 03-06-2015 10:47AM

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/kate-shannon-ware-kerry-ireland-deportation-irish-speaking-children-2136598-Jun2015/

Irish speaking kids being deported is currently popular in the Journal.

Completely irreverent just because you can speak Irish doesn't mean we should ignore the fact you are an illegal immigrant who came on a three month tourist visa years ago. If they really wanted to stay they should have went through the proper procedures to get visas.

Knasher · 03-06-2015 10:55AM

Bored_lad wrote: »

If they really wanted to stay they should have went through the proper procedures to get visas.

Granted that the story is only from their prospective, but it does sound like they made a genuine effort to follow the proper procedures. It seems a little weird that the GNIB can renew your permission to stay, but if they do then the INIS will use that as grounds to kick you out.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2015 11:03AM

Knasher wrote: »

Granted that the story is only from their prospective, but it does sound like they made a genuine effort to follow the proper procedures. It seems a little weird that the GNIB can renew your permission to stay, but if they do then the INIS will use that as grounds to kick you out.

True, but again - irrelevant. Start new thread.

Carlos Orange · 03-06-2015 11:23AM

Knasher wrote: »

Granted that the story is only from their prospective, but it does sound like they made a genuine effort to follow the proper procedures.

Even from their perspective it sounds like he was working here illegally.

Kev W · 03-06-2015 02:11PM

psinno wrote: »

Why wouldn't they pay for it. Sure it is our national dance. It would be a shame if our kids couldn't do the Irish dance. Everyone else is doing it.

They can dance if they want to.
They can leave their friends behind.

briany · 03-06-2015 03:02PM

There'll always be the problem that Irish is a rock hard language to learn for people who are primarily used to speaking English. My own post secondary attempts to (re)learn Irish tend to end in head-scratching over the fact that, for example, there's no reliable form of the infinitive verb. There are rules, but those rules are so often broken. Every time I try to master even simple grammatical concept, I'm confronted with dizzying colour-coded lists of rules, slender endings, broad endings etc. etc. . Trying to learn through text is difficult for a lot of people, because it's easily overwhelming and discouraging, which is why I would like to see a proper spoken course that breaks things right down into the fundamentals and builds it up. That or short text-based "rules of thumb".

Best thing I've seen in this regard is Pimsleur, but that, and I'm not exaggerating, spends about a half an hour on one short exchange and is quite robotic in feel.

dlouth15 · 03-06-2015 04:33PM

There's very little research on how much Irish is actually spoken in Ireland. Most of the figures quoted are from the census questionaire where people are asked if they speak Irish. But no effort is made to define what "speak Irish" actually means. It could mean carrying out a fluent conversation or it could just mean using a stock phrase here and there. And what is having knowledge of Irish? Most people in Ireland can't speak Irish in any meaningful sense of the word but they would have some knowledge of it. It could mean passing pass Irish in the leaving or group cert.

Research could be conducted on how much people actually know of the language and how much it is actually used. Standard linguistic research.

But it is not in the interest of either Government or language activists do do this as it would be too much of a reality check.

Instead the numbers speaking Irish on a daily basis on the Conradh na Gaeilge website includes 450,000 simply because they are pupils in schools in a country where daily Irish classes are compulsory.

In no way are school pupils attending classes in any way equivalent to genuine speakers of a language. I did French every day at school but I was never a daily speaker of French. This sort of distortion only applies in the highly politicized realm of Irish language activism.

FunLover18 · 03-06-2015 05:17PM

dlouth15 wrote:

There's very little research on how much Irish is actually spoken in Ireland. Most of the figures quoted are from the census questionaire where people are asked if they speak Irish. But no effort is made to define what "speak Irish" actually means. It could mean carrying out a fluent conversation or it could just mean using a stock phrase here and there. And what is having knowledge of Irish? Most people in Ireland can't speak Irish in any meaningful sense of the word but they would have some knowledge of it. It could mean passing pass Irish in the leaving or group cert.

ERSI did a survey a couple of years back. AFAIK respondents were asked how often they use the language 60% said never, the remaining 40% was divided amongst daily, weekly, etc. I'm rounding the figures and can't link on my phone but it's a very interesting report.

Shep_Dog · 03-06-2015 05:28PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

ERSI did a survey a couple of years back. AFAIK respondents were asked how often they use the language 60% said never, the remaining 40% was divided amongst daily, weekly, etc. I'm rounding the figures and can't link on my phone but it's a very interesting report.

Was that the 'ESRI' survey which was not written, published or analysed by the ESRI, but was simply conducted by them under contract? I seem to recall that one was written by a very enthusiastic Irish speaker and the results were published personally and not by the ESRI. I think it contained an endorsement from Conradh?

Interesting maybe, but not independent.

dlouth15 · 03-06-2015 05:36PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

ERSI did a survey a couple of years back. AFAIK respondents were asked how often they use the language 60% said never, the remaining 40% was divided amongst daily, weekly, etc. I'm rounding the figures and can't link on my phone but it's a very interesting report.

I would be interested in seeing that but even there it seems to be based on self-reporting and what to speak Irish actually means. My father used to use an Irish phrase most days but at the same time he didn't speak Irish.

If you ask someone if they "speak French", many people even though they may have done the subject at school and maybe passed an exam will say no. I did the subject at school and passed the Leaving cert but I don't "speak French" on the basis that if I went to France I could not understand French as it is spoken by French people to each other and could not converse freely with them outside of very basic phrases.

Likewise, even though I know some Irish phrases having done the subject at school, I don't "speak Irish". Now there are many that pepper their English conversation with Irish phrases. They are speaking Irish on a daily basis in a narrow sense of the word. But these surveys tend not to distinguish between these two meanings.

A proper linguistic survey would have people not merely asking but also observing the extent to which Irish is used in Ireland on a daily basis. They would be engaging with people to see the extent of their language ability as well as seeing whether Irish was actually being used on the ground.

But I have not seen the report so I stand to be corrected.

jackofalltrades · 03-06-2015 05:38PM

Somebody on a previous "Irish language" thread posted a link, to a video shot in St. Stephen's Green Shopping Centre.
In the video a man made an announcement over the intercom in Irish that he was giving away €10 to anyone who came up to him.
I think in total three maybe four people came up to him, in a busy shopping centre.

I know it's not scientific, but it shows just how few people understand even the most basic of phrases.

Trojan Donkey · 03-06-2015 05:42PM

If our government really wanted us to learn Irish, it should have been the only language used by teachers in every subject in school.

I'm talking about reversing the system. The priorities of both Irish and English should switch.

It know it would be a big step since the majority of the population speaks only English. But after a while it would work. After all, English is supposedly a lot harder to learn than Irish. If a person from, for example, Japan came into the country and had absolutely no English or Irish, Irish would be easier to learn than English.
All teachers should speak Irish when teaching any subject. Sure, isn't listening to a language being spoken a great way to pick up words?

Please answer me this. Why should ANYONE have to learn Chinese? I have never heard that statement before. Could someone let me in on it?

FunLover18 · 03-06-2015 05:45PM

Yeh that must be the one. Have you read it? The presentation of the results is definitely skewed, and I've seen the results misrepresented but there's no hiding how damming they actually are, especially when compared with previous results. It is very interesting.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2015 05:48PM

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

If our government really wanted us to learn Irish, it should have been the only language used by teachers in every subject in school.

I'm talking about reversing the system. The priorities of both Irish and English should switch.

It know it would be a big step since the majority of the population speaks only English. But after a while it would work. After all, English is supposedly a lot harder to learn than Irish. If a person from, for example, Japan came into the country and had absolutely no English or Irish, Irish would be easier to learn than English.
All teachers should speak Irish when teaching any subject. Sure, isn't listening to a language being spoken a great way to pick up words?

Please answer me this. Why should ANYONE have to learn Chinese? I have never heard that statement before. Could someone let me in on it?

Been through this. Forcing it on people doesn't work, primarily because the desire isn't there amongst parents and kids. Forcing it even harder will just make people reject it more.

People want to learn Chinese because they think it will be an important business langauge in the future. They are unlikely to be correct.

Trojan Donkey · 03-06-2015 06:00PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

People want to learn Chinese because they think it will be an important business langauge in the future. They are unlikely to be correct.

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

Un Croissant · 03-06-2015 06:03PM

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

????

Trojan Donkey · 03-06-2015 06:07PM

Un Croissant wrote: »

????

!!!!

dr.fuzzenstein · 03-06-2015 06:07PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

I hope this is sarcastic ha

Call it a thought experiment.

Grayson · 03-06-2015 06:16PM

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

You do realise that describes every language.

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Typing this on a new fangled compute or smartphone? Most of it was probably made in China.
That's not to say that learning chinese will magically make someone employable but it is a good skill. Trade with china will still increase. It is a marketable skill. Unlike Irish. People have listed many benefits to having Irish but getting a job wasn't one.

btw, loads of chinese learn english. Obviously they're more accommodating than you.

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

Move to china if you want a government that executes people.

btw, the racism rule is there for a reason. To stop mindless racist drivel.

Shep_Dog · 03-06-2015 06:17PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Yeh that must be the one. Have you read it? The presentation of the results is definitely skewed, and I've seen the results misrepresented but there's no hiding how damming they actually are, especially when compared with previous results. It is very interesting.

It was a few years ago, it contained many truths, but the questions were carefully crafted to avoid unpleasant answers. The analysis tried to put a positive spin on things and it was sufficiently 'culturally correct' to get Conradh's endorsement.

The Irish language is failing.

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