The Irish language is failing.

The Dark Side

Totally ridiculous that we invest so much money and time into a language that died out generations ago. It's particularly criminal the time spent in primary school teaching children Irish that could be far better spent on a language that would have some use in the real world.

The Govt are too spineless to stand up to the Irish language Nazis who persist in this ridiculous charade.

Adamocovic

The Dark Side wrote: »

Totally ridiculous that we invest so much money and time into a language that died out generations ago. It's particularly criminal the time spent in primary school teaching children Irish that could be far better spent on a language that would have some use in the real world.

The Govt are too spineless to stand up to the Irish language Nazis who persist in this ridiculous charade.

Is that not a bit of an extreme to say?

Adamocovic

riclad wrote: »

95 per cent of people have no desire to speak irish,in real life,
so Its forgotten once they leave secondary school.
Its like the catholic church,
i reckon we have maybe 10 per cent real catholics,who actually go to mass weekly,
the rest use it for marriage ,funerals,
an to get their kids into the local school.

And people use the irish language to get x points for college entry .
i believe for technical courses ,eg it,programming ,law,medicine,
the points for irish should be ignored .
real catholics, and irish speakers are a minority.

you could argue that for any language we learn, we only use it when necessary (for irish not much necessity, some just like speaking it to each other, and see it as a cultural thing), I know loads of people who learned German, Italian, French and haven't spoken it since leaving school, only if they ever go on holiday will they try remember some and use it.

LordSutch

The Dark Side wrote: »

Totally ridiculous that we invest so much money and time into a language that died out generations ago. It's particularly criminal the time spent in primary school teaching children Irish that could be far better spent on a language that would have some use in the real world.

The Govt are too spineless to stand up to the Irish language Nazis who persist in this ridiculous charade.

A few years ago when Fine Gael were in opposition, Ends Kenny tabled a proposal to make Irish 'non compulsory' in school (after the Inter Cert)? or maybe it was to be throughout school? . . . anyway, Enda's proposal was attacked and shot down in flames from all directions when the proposal was made public!

I don't have the details to hand, but they were were posted in a previous thread about this very subject.

darkpagandeath

Adamocovic wrote: »

you could argue that for any language we learn, we only use it when necessary (for irish not much necessity, some just like speaking it to each other, and see it as a cultural thing), I know loads of people who learned German, Italian, French and haven't spoken it since leaving school, only if they ever go on holiday will they try remember some and use it.

Where in Ireland can you go and not be able to communicate through English ? People not wanting to speak English is another topic.

Adamocovic

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Where in Ireland can you go and not be able to communicate though English ? People not wanting to speak English is another topic.

I never said you would not be able to communicate in English. I said in the brackets that for Ireland it is not the case, I stated its only used if people want to use it (why I said it is not a necissity).

My point was that all other (other than english) languages that are taught in school are not used very often outside of school unless people go on an exchange to the country where they have learned the language, gaeltacht, french equivalents etc or holidays.

I was making a point about the comment

95 per cent of people have no desire to speak irish,in real life,
so Its forgotten once they leave secondary school.

Saying this isnt just solely for irish, majority of students only pick a second language because they need it for college, once done school its forgotton too. (For the majority)

4zn76tysfajdxp

The Dark Side wrote: »

Totally ridiculous that we invest so much money and time into a language that died out generations ago.

Not dead.

Adamocovic

At the end of the day there are a lot of factors affecting the state of the Irish langauge. The actual subject (the outline, topics, tasks, methods of learning), the teacher (some would no doubt be better than others), and the student (some with no desire, which is totally fine)

If someone has no interest in learning or speaking, fair enough they shouldnt have to. Maybe it should be made a choice after the Junior Cert in Secondary school. I know people who didn't want to learn it and felt like they were being forced. This isnt good at all.

I fully understand it is not a day to day useful language and more of a cultural novelty to have but it is something I personally value.

I can't see much change happening but there needs to be some sort of reform on the teaching of it to make it more enjoyable and practical. More of an aim at teaching people to hold conversations rather than writing book reports in it! That's something I don't see myself ever doing and that was one of the things focused on the most, writing reports on a book and play etc.

EDIT: Also to follow up I think a lot of the way we teach languages here is written rather than spoken. I found I could write understandable and decent French but couldn't get prononciations right at all so it wasnnt understandable when spoken. People I have met from other countries it is the opposite good English spoken rather than written.

mach1982

I work with a large multinational and all I hear all day is other languages. Irish has come handy few times , especially when chatting to friends, and don't want people to know what your saying. Chonaic me cailín deas isteach san bialann.

I agree the what Irish is taught is wrong, as some said earlier we need to take a leaf of the Welsh book.

riclad

U can get a job with a company ,based partly on fluency in german,
french, etc they are living languages ,
People choose to learn french etc
We are in the eu,
a foreign language is an asset you might use at some point in your life .
i learned french at school ,i could at least read frenc documnents if it was part of my job.
People forget irish because we all speak english,
theres hardly any practical use to irish unless you are at tg4,rte ,or an irish teacher etc
ie its part of heir job.
SO we need to spend billions speaking irish so maybe 100 people can get a job in tg4,or rte .
And a few people speak irish when they are around non irish speakers .
That,s not a very practical use of resources .
A foreign company may give you a job ,
say theres 2 people applying ,
the person who as french, german on their cv may get the job,
all other things being equal .

Outside ireland employers will give you zero credit for having irish
on your cv ,
they ,ll look at your skills in maths, science, physics etc
IF 1000,s of students are forced to learn a subject it should have some practical value or application in real life ,
or be of some value in getting a job .

Deranged96

riclad wrote: »

U can get a job with a company ,based partly on fluency in german,
french, etc they are living languages ,
People choose to learn french etc
We are in the eu,
a foreign language is an asset you might use at some point in your life .
i learned french at school ,i could at least read frenc documnents if it was part of my job.
People forget irish because we all speak english,
theres hardly any practical use to irish unless you are at tg4,rte ,or an irish teacher etc
ie its part of heir job.
SO we need to spend billions speaking irish so maybe 100 people can get a job in tg4,or rte .
And a few people speak irish when they are around non irish speakers .
That,s not a very practical use of resources .
A foreign company may give you a job ,
say theres 2 people applying ,
the person who as french, german on their cv may get the job,
all other things being equal .

Outside ireland employers will give you zero credit for having irish
on your cv ,
they ,ll look at your skills in maths, science, physics etc
IF 1000,s of students are forced to learn a subject it should have some practical value or application in real life ,
or be of some value in getting a job .

http://www.thejournal.ie/eu-legislation-translated-into-irish-costs-e12-million-1197468-Nov2013/

Not entirely true

Adamocovic

riclad wrote: »

U can get a job with a company ,based partly on fluency in german,
french, etc they are living languages ,
People choose to learn french etc
We are in the eu,
a foreign language is an asset you might use at some point in your life .
i learned french at school ,i could at least read frenc documnents if it was part of my job.
People forget irish because we all speak english,
theres hardly any practical use to irish unless you are at tg4,rte ,or an irish teacher etc
ie its part of heir job.
SO we need to spend billions speaking irish so maybe 100 people can get a job in tg4,or rte .
And a few people speak irish when they are around non irish speakers .
That,s not a very practical use of resources .
A foreign company may give you a job ,
say theres 2 people applying ,
the person who as french, german on their cv may get the job,
all other things being equal .

Outside ireland employers will give you zero credit for having irish
on your cv ,
they ,ll look at your skills in maths, science, physics etc
IF 1000,s of students are forced to learn a subject it should have some practical value or application in real life ,
or be of some value in getting a job .

I understand your point completely, in terms of spending since it is more of a cultural topic many don't consider the economic effect of it. I agree that they should reduce spending in areas, but I disagree that the language should stop being taught. Fair enough if people don't want to learn it let them choose but it should still be an option in school to learn it.

Akrasia

What use is the irish language?

Well, what use is a Tin Whistle, or a violin, or uilleann pipes
or the ability to dance the Seige of Ennis, or sing a Sean Nos song?

What use are the old irish myths and legends, what use are old abbeys and megalithic tombs...

Irish has a value to some people but not everybody. Forcing people to do it is wrong, but encouraging people to keep it alive is valuable and it enriches our culture and our identity.

My kids are all going to attend a gaelscoil because I think it's really good for their brain development to learn a second language fluently, and in Ireland, the only way to do this is to send them to an irish language school. it won't cost them anything. children who attend irish schools are just as good at english as their peers, but much better at Irish.

My oldest boy is in Juniors and is already well on the road to fluency at no cost to his english language skills.

whisky_galore

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

Not dead.

True.

Just on life-support.

RecordStraight

mach1982 wrote: »

I agree the what Irish is taught is wrong, as some said earlier we need to take a leaf of the Welsh book.

But we wouldn't understand it...

dr.fuzzenstein

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Where in Ireland can you go and not be able to communicate through English ? People not wanting to speak English is another topic.

That one would be easy for me, I just start speaking in German. :pac:
The situation has not arisen yet, but I wonder if there are any German-Irish translators out there. :cool:

dr.fuzzenstein

riclad wrote: »

U can get a job with a company ,based partly on fluency in german,
french, etc they are living languages ,
People choose to learn french etc
We are in the eu,
a foreign language is an asset you might use at some point in your life .
i learned french at school ,i could at least read frenc documnents if it was part of my job.
People forget irish because we all speak english,
theres hardly any practical use to irish unless you are at tg4,rte ,or an irish teacher etc
ie its part of heir job.
SO we need to spend billions speaking irish so maybe 100 people can get a job in tg4,or rte .
And a few people speak irish when they are around non irish speakers .
That,s not a very practical use of resources .
A foreign company may give you a job ,
say theres 2 people applying ,
the person who as french, german on their cv may get the job,
all other things being equal .

Outside ireland employers will give you zero credit for having irish
on your cv ,
they ,ll look at your skills in maths, science, physics etc
IF 1000,s of students are forced to learn a subject it should have some practical value or application in real life ,
or be of some value in getting a job .

We'd have to get English right, first.

whisky_galore

LordSutch wrote: »

A few years ago when Fine Gael were in opposition, Ends Kenny tabled a proposal to make Irish 'non compulsory' in school (after the Inter Cert)? or maybe it was to be throughout school? . . . anyway, Enda's proposal was attacked and shot down in flames from all directions when the proposal was made public!

I don't have the details to hand, but they were were posted in a previous thread about this very subject.

If only there was the same amount of outrage and lobbying about our health service.

darkpagandeath

RecordStraight wrote: »

But we wouldn't understand it...

Welsh is completely different. People continued to speak Welsh and English. Irish was replaced with English.

Being factual here no offence meant.

Reiver

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Welsh is completely different. People continued to speak Welsh and English. Irish was replaced with English.

Being factual here no offence meant.

People continue to speak Irish and English too.

I think he was just making the point that the revivals have been completely different.

Adamocovic

Reiver wrote: »

People continue to speak Irish and English too.

I think he was just making the point that the revivals have been completely different.

True, the Scottish are trying a revival of their language at the momemnt, not a huge surge but some are choosing to study it (outside of school). It's not fully brought back into schools etc but there are places where people can go and learn it. Not big figures but still. I know a Scottish guy who is thinking of trying it.

Icepick

tipparetops wrote: »

How can a child in primary school decide what subject they study.
Deluded thinking.

Parents can choose. Let them choose between Spanish and Irish and we will see.

tipparetops

Icepick wrote: »

Parents can choose. Let them choose between Spanish and Irish and we will see.

pointless post of the week.
Our primary school teachers can barely speak Irish, where would get the spanish teachers from.

FloatingVoter

tipparetops wrote: »

pointless post of the week.
Our primary school teachers can barely speak Irish, where would get the spanish teachers from.

There's ten of them trying to bum a cigarette on Dame St. right now. Instead of running home to daddy in Barcelona with a conviction for shoplifting ... a job teaching Spanish would put a smile on his face.

briany

FloatingVoter wrote: »

There's ten of them trying to bum a cigarette on Dame St. right now. Instead of running home to daddy in Barcelona with a conviction for shoplifting ... a job teaching Spanish would put a smile on his face.

Some would say those Spanish teenagers are under qualified. :pac:

inocybe

tipparetops wrote: »

pointless post of the week.
Our primary school teachers can barely speak Irish, where would get the spanish teachers from.

When my son was in primary I was forced to pay for someone coming in and teaching Irish dancing, Spanish would have been much preferred.

tipparetops

inocybe wrote: »

When my son was in primary I was forced to pay for someone coming in and teaching Irish dancing, Spanish would have been much preferred.

this is about the language, learning Irish has nothing to do with you paying extra for dancing lessons on school time.

inocybe

tipparetops wrote: »

this is about the language, learning Irish has nothing to do with you paying extra for dancing lessons on school time.

You asked where we would get the Spanish teachers from! I gave you an example of how parents are already compelled to pay for extra people giving tuition. No reason in the world why it couldn't be sport through Spanish. In fact that's how I believe Irish should be taught, by fluent speakers brought in for a fun activity through Irish. Take it away from the regular classroom.

tipparetops

inocybe wrote: »

You asked where we would get the Spanish teachers from! I gave you an example of how parents are already compelled to pay for extra people giving tuition. No reason in the world why it couldn't be sport through Spanish. In fact that's how I believe Irish should be taught, by fluent speakers brought in for a fun activity through Irish. Take it away from the regular classroom.

how are you compelled to pay extra, you mean you decide as an adult to pay extra so your children can learn Irish dancing.
if you do not want to pay, dont.

inocybe

tipparetops wrote: »

how are you compelled to pay extra, you mean you decide as an adult to pay extra so your children can learn Irish dancing.
if you do not want to pay, dont.

Yeah right, at least 6 demand letters per year plus the entire parents council knowing who didn't pay. Plus the kids were compelled to do the wretched dancing whether the parents paid or not. I wasn't allowed to opt him out on the basis that it was PE which is compulsary.
Anyway, the point was that there are options to put language learning into the hands of people who are more competant than the general teachers.