The Irish language is failing.

mickstupp

Ok then... following your own point... I have to assume that when you implied people who can't deal with Ordinary Level Irish have no place in third level, what you actually meant wasn't that they weren't able for it, but that in fact they simply wouldn't try hard enough to succeed at third level? Never mind the fact that all the rest of their marks might be just fine?

Take my friend's son, for example. Got more than enough points to do Biology in Maynooth, gets told he can't gain entry because he only did Foundation level Irish. Has to repeat the year and get Irish grinds to get the required marks which have zero relevance to his science degree. For you, based on what you've posted so far, the fact that he wasn't trying hard enough (i.e. your belief) should rule him out of third level despite his perfectly good marks in other areas?

I couldn't grasp Physics either. I didn't try hard enough I guess. Do you believe the whole concept of aptitudes is just made up?

Shrap

Aineoil wrote: »

I am certainly re-railing this thread but have you any idea ideas about the amount

of the school day is wasted on communion and confirmation preparation?

Yes, many ideas! A lot, in the appropriate years, is the answer but for further discussion you might want to head to the Atheists and Agnostics forum, as there are a number of threads open that cover this topic and you'd get better information there....

briany

Duolingo is the best of a bad bunch when it comes to learning Irish. One of the problems that really hurts uptake of the language is the poor, poor learning resources available for it. Sure, there's going to the Gaeltacht or night courses, but a lot of language learners like to start out with education closer to home, where they feel more able to go at their own pace. Auto-didactic education, really. Books on the subject are filled with grammatical rules that constitute a very unnatural way of learning anything. It's declarative learning, if anything, knowing lists rather than really being able to apply their contents. I say, that if the Irish government were to invest in researching how to make one proper, naturally taught, Irish course, and published it for all, free of charge, we wouldn't need Irish in schools. Instead we have Liam O Maonlai asking us to repeat phrases against the backdrop of serene music and falling rain, but is exactly the kind of rote learning that really turns people off, IMO.

I've said it before, if you take a look at someone like Michel Thomas, with his audio courses, he has the right way of teaching languages. Building from the elemental blocks of a language with 'I have', 'I want' 'I know' 'I know how' 'Do you want?' etc. etc. building it up very steadily with conjugation, placement of pronouns, asking his students on the tape and the listener how to construct sentences with the words you learn and so on until, in a couple of hours, if not less, you're able to conjure some pretty impressive sentences that express the basic things most of us need to say every day. THAT is how you teach a language, IMO. Exceptions to rules can be learned later as one goes, and it's okay to make mistakes now. That's how you learn more deeply.

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

Ok then... following your own point... I have to assume that when you implied people who can't deal with Ordinary Level Irish have no place in third level, what you actually meant wasn't that they weren't able for it, but that in fact they simply wouldn't try hard enough to succeed at third level? Never mind the fact that all the rest of their marks might be just fine?

Take my friend's son, for example. Got more than enough points to do Biology in Maynooth, gets told he can't gain entry because he only did Foundation level Irish. Has to repeat the year and get Irish grinds to get the required marks which have zero relevance to his science degree. For you, based on what you've posted so far, the fact that he wasn't trying hard enough (i.e. your belief) should rule him out of third level despite his perfectly good marks in other areas?

I couldn't grasp Physics either. I didn't try hard enough I guess. Do you believe the whole concept of aptitudes is just made up?

Well he did pass the second time.
Aptitude and Attitude gets you the good grades.
Attitude on its own will get you a pass in any Ordinary Level subject.

Icepick

It's time to stop the pretence and stop wasting resources on another failed government project.
Like religion, Irish shouldn't be compulsory. That way people who choose to learn it will actually enjoy learning and using it.

dissed doc

Whatever personal problems or opinions people have with regard to the Irish language, it has nothing to do with how it is taught. Irish people are a group very lazy when it comes to languages other than English. When you people mostly moving to UK, Aus, Canada, or US it is clear that the best teaching in the world could not change the situation. There is no interest in learning Irish, just as there is no interest in learning any other language than English. Irish is no different than German, French, Mandarin. There are of course exceptions, but the issues are around languages in general in Ireland. UK is no different. There are also a lot self deluded people I think (anecdotally) that say they speak a language, including Irish, but in reality cannot.

tipparetops

Icepick wrote: »

It's time to stop the pretence and stop wasting resources on another failed government project.
Like religion, Irish shouldn't be compulsory. That way people who choose to learn it will actually enjoy learning and using it.

How can a child in primary school decide what subject they study.
Deluded thinking.

mickstupp

He hasn't done it yet. His repeat LC is coming up. Last year he got more than enough points for the university course of his choice. His option, as far as I can gather, if he doesn't pass OL Irish this time, is just to go to TCD. He doesn't want TCD. He lives near Maynooth. But I don't think TCD have that stupid arbitrary requirement. Having Irish as a compulsory requirement is preventing students from gaining the education they want in this country. That's what was denied pages ago.

Aptitude and Attitude gets you the good grades.

That's not what you said before when you discounted aptitude altogether. Attitude alone will not get you a pass in any Ordinary level subject. Do you remember the insane workload on students in the Leaving Cert? Try telling them that the problem is them. That they're just not trying hard enough. That they've the wrong attitude. My chemist teacher showed up barely sober most of the time. My fault.

My problem here is the attitude that it's the learner's fault, and by extension that there's no need to change the system. The assumption is that if people gave a damn they'd be fluent. That attitude is why the system is in complete stagnation. It's the attitude of people who don't want to overhaul the system because for them there's nothing wrong with it. This could be a nation filled with fluent Irish speakers, but taking the view that it's a student's own fault if they can't learn it properly is a great way to alienate people.

If people want to breathe life into the language then change is necessary, and attitudes like yours need to go.

mickstupp

dissed doc wrote: »

Whatever personal problems or opinions people have with regard to the Irish language, it has nothing to do with how it is taught.

Yes it does. Compare the Irish textbooks used in schools to those for French, German or any other language. I firmly believe that if someone sat down and took a French textbook as a model for teaching Irish, we'd all be far more adept at the language. I have absolutely no doubt. But it's not taught like a foreign language. It's taught as if we have an innate ability to understand it. Which is utterly ludicrous.

briany

dissed doc wrote: »

Irish is no different than German, French, Mandarin

There are far more cognates in German and French (and Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese and Italian) with English which make them easier to learn for English speakers. Some things you come across in Irish are pretty alien to speakers of regular English in Ireland. Irish is a language that comes from a whole other branch of the Indo-European family. A fact which should be considered when figuring out how to teach it effectively to mainly English-speaking people.

I'd say Mandarin would be harder than Irish, though.

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

He hasn't done it yet. His repeat LC is coming up. Last year he got more than enough points for the university course of his choice. His option, as far as I can gather, if he doesn't pass OL Irish this time, is just to go to TCD. He doesn't want TCD. He lives near Maynooth. But I don't think TCD have that stupid arbitrary requirement. Having Irish as a compulsory requirement is preventing students from gaining the education they want in this country. That's what was denied pages ago.


That's not what you said before when you discounted aptitude altogether. Attitude alone will not get you a pass in any Ordinary level subject. Do you remember the insane workload on students in the Leaving Cert? Try telling them that the problem is them. That they're just not trying hard enough. That they've the wrong attitude. My chemist teacher showed up barely sober most of the time. My fault.

My problem here is the attitude that it's the learner's fault, and by extension that there's no need to change the system. The assumption is that if people gave a damn they'd be fluent. That attitude is why the system is in complete stagnation. It's the attitude of people who don't want to overhaul the system because for them there's nothing wrong with it. This could be a nation filled with fluent Irish speakers, but taking the view that it's a student's own fault if they can't learn it properly is a great way to alienate people.

If people want to breathe life into the language then change is necessary, and attitudes like yours need to go.

If you are studying any Foundation subject you are either
Stupid or Lazy.
In Foundation Irish they have pictures in the exam questions. Pictures for Christ sake.

Tell your friend stop the mollycoddling.

mickstupp

Stupid and lazy enough to get 480 points in his Leaving Cert last year, more than enough to get into his chosen course. Yup. You're totally right. The fact that he did Foundation Irish completely negates every other achievement. He's clearly not fit for third level education.

Do you not see how your opinion has no basis in reality?

briany

tipparetops wrote: »

If you are studying any Foundation subject you are either
Stupid or Lazy.
In Foundation Irish they have pictures in the exam questions. Pictures for Christ sake.

Tell your friend stop the mollycoddling.

There are people who have done at least one foundation subject and gone on to do rather well in the test of life, making them neither stupid nor lazy. How does
not showing an aptitude or interest in a subject make a person stupid or lazy? If that is so, then we're all stupid or lazy in one way or another.

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

Stupid and lazy enough to get 480 points in his Leaving Cert last year, more than enough to get into his chosen course. Yup. You're totally right. The fact that he did Foundation Irish completely negates every other achievement. He's clearly not fit for third level education.

Do you not see how your opinion has no basis in reality?

480 points while failing one.
Are you for real?

tipparetops

briany wrote: »

There are people who have done at least one foundation subject and gone on to do rather well in the test of life, making them neither stupid nor lazy. How does
not showing an aptitude or interest in a subject make a person stupid or lazy? If that is so, then we're all stupid or lazy in one way or another.

You said it - interest.

that is my point - if you are studying Foundation level you have no interest or are a little touched.

mickstupp

tipparetops wrote: »

480 points while failing one.
Are you for real?

He didn't fail. He did Foundation. But that's not enough to get into many university courses which require Ordinary Irish for no good reason. How is this difficult for you to follow. Starting to think you're just winding me up. I guess there's not a hope you'll answer any of the questions asked of you.

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

He didn't fail. He did Foundation. But that's not enough to get into many university courses which require Ordinary Irish for no good reason. How is this difficult for you to follow. Starting to think you're just winding me up. I guess there's not a hope you'll answer any of the questions asked of you.

So many questions.
How did he get 480 points and just manage Foundation Irish.
Did he not know before he did the LC, what he required to enter his preferred biology course.
Why did not choose Ordinary Level Irish.

I think this Kid was trying to pull a quick one but it backfired on him or your friend is telling porkies.

briany

tipparetops wrote: »

You said it - interest.

that is my point - if you are studying Foundation level you have no interest or are a little touched.

Swapping 'lazy' for 'no interest'. If those terms are interchangeable, then we're all guilty of being lazy in one way or another. No big deal, so.

tipparetops

briany wrote: »

Swapping 'lazy' for 'no interest'. If those terms are interchangeable, then we're all guilty of being lazy in one way or another. No big deal, so.

Yes we are. If the people who had no interest in learning Irish were to try again now they would rather enjoy it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

Yes we are. If the people who had no interest in learning Irish were to try again now they would rather enjoy it.

Without knowing who you're talking about, how do you know that's true?

briany

tipparetops wrote: »

Yes we are. If the people who had no interest in learning Irish were to try again now they would rather enjoy it.

If people had no interest then, and none now, they should be free to continue in that vein, knowing their not studying Irish won't have too many negative consequences. On the other hand, if there are people who've changed their minds, then they should have every resource made available to them. If there were a system where only people who were interested in Irish needed to participate and were well supported, I think it would do far more good for the language than the last 100 years of state education because you'd get a grass roots movement going. A proper one.

But as it is in some cases, the idea that you couldn't get into your chosen University to do, say, Business or Applied Physics without ordinary level Irish makes about as much sense as not being able to get in without having your Grade 5 in piano studies.

Shep_Dog

tipparetops wrote: »

How can a child in primary school decide what subject they study.
Deluded thinking.

Let the parents choose their child's languages? They already choose the child's religious formation.

astrofool

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Let the parents choose their child's languages? They already choose the child's religious formation.

Choice in Ireland usually means leaving the country to exercise that choice, then coming back afterwards

OneOfThem Stumbled

mickstupp wrote: »

Yes it does. Compare the Irish textbooks used in schools to those for French, German or any other language. I firmly believe that if someone sat down and took a French textbook as a model for teaching Irish, we'd all be far more adept at the language. I have absolutely no doubt. But it's not taught like a foreign language. It's taught as if we have an innate ability to understand it. Which is utterly ludicrous.

French textbooks are crap. They focus on tourist French - how to order a pain du chocolat at the local boulanger and the like. It's BS. Presumably it's to make it seem more relvant, but I was left with a fairly loose understanding of the fundamentals of the language, not least the vocab.

Oh, they love playing French films with French subtitles as well in school. I learned feck all that way.

Similarly the attempts to make Irish hip, current and cool are cringeworthy. Harry Potter agus an Góblet Tine! The focus on being able to understand the ludicrous different dialects was a pain. Having to pass it to be allowed into Third Level? Well how else would they get people to spend their time learning a useless subject that has been drained of cultural significance?

Deranged96

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

French textbooks are crap. They focus on tourist French - how to order a pain du chocolat at the local boulanger and the like. It's BS. Presumably it's to make it seem more relvant, but I was left with a fairly loose understanding of the fundamentals of the language, not least the vocab.

Oh, they love playing French films with French subtitles as well in school. I learned feck all that way.

Similarly the attempts to make Irish hip, current and cool are cringeworthy. Harry Potter agus an Góblet Tine! The focus on being able to understand the ludicrous different dialects was a pain. Having to pass it to be allowed into Third Level? Well how else would they get people to spend their time learning a useless subject that has been drained of cultural significance?

This recurring compaint about the dialects.. I don't get it. Irish was standerdised about 80 years ago. All teachers would have learned the standardised Irish and if you had one from an actual Gaeltacht of a different province, then you should probably count yourself lucky.

briany

Deranged96 wrote: »

This recurring compaint about the dialects.. I don't get it. Irish was standerdised about 80 years ago. All teachers would have learned the standardised Irish and if you had one from an actual Gaeltacht of a different province, then you should probably count yourself lucky.

Having one from a Gaeltacht could be more a curse than a blessing if they're constantly talking about how they'd say a particular thing back home. You'd have it twice - one in the book and one out of their mouth.

How do people from the Gaeltacht take people coming in, speaking in stilted standardised Irish? Frosty or friendly?

Deranged96

briany wrote: »

Having one from a Gaeltacht could be more a curse than a blessing if they're constantly talking about how they'd say a particular thing back home. You'd have it twice - one in the book and one out of their mouth.

How do people from the Gaeltacht take people coming in, speaking in stilted standardised Irish? Frosty or friendly?

Given that they make serious cash out of it every summer I'd say they're delighted :P

Reiver

briany wrote: »

Having one from a Gaeltacht could be more a curse than a blessing if they're constantly talking about how they'd say a particular thing back home. You'd have it twice - one in the book and one out of their mouth.

How do people from the Gaeltacht take people coming in, speaking in stilted standardised Irish? Frosty or friendly?

My own experience is that they'll tolerate you. Depends on the person.

One did tell me what drives him nuts is when he gets some lad from Dublin in and he tries to correct him while he's talking. I speak good enough German but I'd never have the balls to correct a native speaker (and definitely not in the middle of a conversatioN!).

Adamocovic

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

French textbooks are crap. They focus on tourist French - how to order a pain du chocolat at the local boulanger and the like. It's BS.

This! Recently been living in France and in my first week I had to go in and set up a bank account, pages of French and the guy tried explaining stuff I didn't understand. Asking where the library is and telling him about my holiday last year wasnt going to help me :pac:

Too much on teaching languages is like you said, just enough to get you by being a tourist, not enough to hold a proper conversation. You find for someone to really learn it well they need to either have their own tutor (online or in person) or from living in an area and being forced to speak it. Plus a big factor is desire, but then again if it isn't interestingly taught there won't be much desire.

riclad

95 per cent of people have no desire to speak irish,in real life,
so Its forgotten once they leave secondary school.
Its like the catholic church,
i reckon we have maybe 10 per cent real catholics,who actually go to mass weekly,
the rest use it for marriage ,funerals,
an to get their kids into the local school.

And people use the irish language to get x points for college entry .
i believe for technical courses ,eg it,programming ,law,medicine,
the points for irish should be ignored .
real catholics, and irish speakers are a minority.