The Hazards of Belief

Peregrinus · 28-05-2015 8:14am

kylith wrote: »

This is the bit that stands out for me

On the one hand; their building, their rules. On the other hand; come on! Regardless of anything else if you're used to sleeping in a double bed it's hard to sleep in a single without worrying about falling out all the time.

Also, you'd know these priests live a sheltered life; there's little you can do in a double bed that you can't do in a single, and nothing you can't do on a blanket on the floor

This is the Catholic Housing Aid Society; I don't think there are any priests involved.

And, much and all as I like things to be about sex, I actually doubt whether this is really about sex. Partly for the reason you point out - one can have sex in a single bed (I'm told). And partly because why would the CHAS care?

They are more likely to care about who's living in their apartments than who's shagging there. I suspect what they're concerned about is facilitating, ahem, long-term guests - guests who may not qualify for the provision of housing by the CHAS, guests who may not be the type of tenant/resident that CHAS wants, guests who may not be the type of resident that other tenants appreciate, guests who might try to assert a continued right of residence when the main tenant dies (which, in a senior citizens complex, happens quite a lot), thereby blocking the flat from someone qualified.

Yes, CHAS is trying to control their tenants lives in ways that are probably objectionable. But, no, I doubt the basis of their concern is simple puritanism.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-05-2015 8:57am

expectationlost wrote: »

No double beds allowed for unmarried elderly http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/no-double-beds-allowed-for-unmarried-elderly-1.2228219 the pervasis control the church has

What a fcuking sick joke.

There must be an awful lot of non-believer elderly people in hospitals homes and the like having religion shoved down their throats with no real ability to resist or avoid it.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-05-2015 9:04am

obplayer wrote: »

A good point. India's attitude to women seems to be very often vile, as evidenced by the documentary I have provided a link too, but little of the vileness exhibited in the documentary I have linked to seems related to religion

Can't be anything to do with all of the main religions in the country except one regarding women as inferior, no siree bob. Sikhism is actually notable among religions in stating that women are equal.

seamus · 28-05-2015 9:21am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not sure if these tenancies will fall under the PRT acts but if they do once the tenants get part 4 rights then there is little a landlord could do to enforce stupid rules like this one.

The issue there is that the landlord is under no obligation to swap out the bed nor take any unwanted furniture out. So if a resident does buy a double bed, they will have to store the single in the apartment until they move out.
Having that space taken up in the apartment is difficult for elderly people, especially those with reduced mobility.

In hindsight though, why wouldn't they just put doubles into every room regardless? Single people over the age of 21 don't sleep in single beds unless it's their parents' house.

Peregrinus · 28-05-2015 9:21am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can't be anything to do with all of the main religions in the country except one regarding women as inferior, no siree bob. Sikhism is actually notable among religions in stating that women are equal.

And yet Sikhs practice arranged marriages.

Which suggests that, despite your devout faith and the fervour with which you proclaim it, yes, it is possible that the practice of arranged marriage is not, fundamentally, a religiously-based practice.

Peregrinus · 28-05-2015 9:27am

seamus wrote: »

The issue there is that the landlord is under no obligation to swap out the bed nor take any unwanted furniture out. So if a resident does buy a double bed, they will have to store the single in the apartment until they move out.
Having that space taken up in the apartment is difficult for elderly people, especially those with reduced mobility.

That's up to them, surely? If they are happy to live with the inconvience of having a spare bed in the flat, I don't see that it's any skin off the landlord's nose.

seamus wrote: »

In hindsight though, why wouldn't they just put doubles into every room regardless? Single people over the age of 21 don't sleep in single beds unless it's their parents' house.

A double bed in a smallish room can create, e.g., difficulties or inconveniences with cleaning, if for example one side is up against the wall. And in accommodation for the elderly, difficulties with cleaning, or barriers to mobility, or whatever, are an issue. So I wouldn't argue for a double bed as standard, regardless of the tenant's wishes.

I would have thought the best approach to this is to provide what they assume will be most suitable, and be relaxed about tenants who swap it for something that, for them, is actually more suitable. The trade-off between the comfort and space of a double bed, versus the loss of space and the need to store the spare single bed, is a trade-off the tenant can make for himself.

If, as I suspect, they have an issue with long-term guests moving in, that may be a legitimate issue, but they need to find a better way of addressing it.

seamus · 28-05-2015 9:50am

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's up to them, surely? If they are happy to live with the inconvience of having a spare bed in the flat, I don't see that it's any skin off the landlord's nose.

Oh absolutely. But I imagine what's been happening in this case is tenants ringing up to ask the landlord to take the single away and are being told, "No, you can't have a double".

Reading between the lines in the article, it would seem to me that's the primary dispute here.

If the tenants were to just move a double in and stick the single against the wall, there's basically nothing the landlord can do about it.

anothernight · 28-05-2015 5:31pm

seamus wrote: »

If the tenants were to just move a double in and stick the single against the wall, there's basically nothing the landlord can do about it.

I would've thought that this part of the article would contradict that: "those who have already bought them have been told to remove them"

Pawwed Rig · 28-05-2015 6:31pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can't be anything to do with all of the main religions in the country world except one regarding women as inferior, no siree bob. Sikhism is actually notable among religions in stating that women are equal.

FYP

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2015 12:02am

Peregrinus wrote: »

And yet Sikhs practice arranged marriages.

Which suggests that, despite your devout faith and the fervour with which you proclaim it, yes, it is possible that the practice of arranged marriage is not, fundamentally, a religiously-based practice.

But cultures influence religions, and vice-versa, and both are inventions of man and reflect the mores of the time and place in which they arise...

Even if Sikhs do practice arranged marriages, it is distinctly unusual for a religion not to explicitly state women are inferior to men. The big 3 certainly do. There is no getting away from that...

anothernight · 29-05-2015 12:06am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But cultures influence religions, and vice-versa, and both are inventions of man and reflect the mores of the time and place in which they arise...

Even if Sikhs do practice arranged marriages, it is distinctly unusual for a religion not to explicitly state women are inferior to men. The big 3 certainly do. There is no getting away from that...

In my sister's wedding the pastor brought out that gem that says that the man is the head of the household... and the woman is the neck. >_>

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2015 1:06am

anothernight wrote: »

In my sister's wedding the pastor brought out that gem that says that the man is the head of the household... and the woman is the neck. >_>

I hope she kicked the ignorant git right in the balls

pauldla · 29-05-2015 1:08am

anothernight wrote: »

In my sister's wedding the pastor brought out that gem that says that the man is the head of the household... and the woman is the neck. >_>

The joke being that the neck can turn the head any way it wants? My Big Fat Greek Wedding, I think that's from...

Pawwed Rig · 29-05-2015 8:32am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But cultures influence religions, and vice-versa, and both are inventions of man and reflect the mores of the time and place in which they arise...

Maybe arranged marriages are a more advanced way of doing things. Love and infatuation are after all just chemical emotional reactions whereas an arranged marriage will analyse a potential relationship in a more level headed manner.

silverharp · 29-05-2015 8:46am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Maybe arranged marriages are a more advanced way of doing things. Love and infatuation are after all just chemical emotional reactions whereas an arranged marriage will analyse a potential relationship in a more level headed manner.

in a way computers algorithms are being used to arrange some relationships which could turn into marriages

Shrap · 29-05-2015 8:49am

silverharp wrote: »

in a way computers algorithms are being used to arrange some relationships which could turn into marriages

Good point!

Shrap · 29-05-2015 8:56am

anothernight wrote: »

In my sister's wedding the pastor brought out that gem that says that the man is the head of the household... and the woman is the neck. >_>

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I hope she kicked the ignorant git right in the balls

Oh jaysus, I was at a catholic wedding recently and the priest made a desperate joke about how nervous the bride was about the actual walk up the aisle the day before, and how he'd advised her to keep focussed on the alter, the aisle and her husband to be (let's call him Mick). On the day, then he'd asked her outside the church how she was feeling and she said "Grand father! I've the three things fixed in my head - Aisle, Alter, Mick"

FFS.

Wasn't the only sexist joke he made either, and he also ripped the piss out of "Mick's" height at least 3 times. It was pretty shabby tbh, but people laughed along dutifully....

anothernight · 29-05-2015 4:36pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I hope she kicked the ignorant git right in the balls

Oh, she agreed with it. My very conservative protestant mother actually taught it to us that way too, and she wasn't joking.

If he meant it as a joke, no one laughed anyway. Maybe because he preceded it with this Bible quote:

Ephesians 5:23 wrote:

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Lovely wedding, but awful, awful ceremony. Thank God my own wedding will have no religious elements in it.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2015 9:32pm

expectationlost wrote: »

No double beds allowed for unmarried elderly http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/no-double-beds-allowed-for-unmarried-elderly-1.2228219 the pervasive control the church has

Single elderly people like sex too

obplayer · 29-05-2015 9:45pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Single elderly people like sex too

But they'll go to hell if they're not married!

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2015 10:21pm

obplayer wrote: »

But they'll go to hell if they're not married!

Oh they're probably married, just not necessarily to each other :pac:

Meanwhile...
Anyone fancy a G&T?

Eeden · 30-05-2015 1:13am

Didn't we see from the recent referendum that marriage is about children? If you can't have children, you shouldn't be having sex. And of course, double beds are all about sex. So if you're not having sex (and if you're past child-bearing age, you shouldn't be), then why would you even want a double bed?

Hotblack Desiato · 01-06-2015 1:10pm

http://www.rte.ie/commissioning/angelus.html

Proposals are invited to fill RTÉ One's reflective 6pm "Angelus" slots on RTÉ One.

The daily "Angelus" broadcast on RTÉ One is by far RTÉ's longest-running and most watched Religious Programme. It's also, possibly, the most controversial. For some, the reflective slot, which airs for just one minute in every 1440 per day and on only one RTÉ TV channel, is as much part of Ireland's unique cultural identity as the harp on your passport; for others, it's an anachronism - a reminder of more homogenously and observantly Christian times.

How can RTÉ reconcile these utterly conflicting views?

In fact, RTÉ Audience Research and numerous straw polls in the media have shown that a clear majority of Irish viewers still favours keeping the "Angelus" broadcasts, chimes and all. In an age where mindfulness is the new buzzword, it seems that many people, with and without a religious faith, can see the value in a reflective space in the schedule - an opportunity for people to "go placidly amidst the noise."

The current version, commissioned in 2009, features people from all walks of contemporary Irish life, taking a minute for quiet reflection. Those short films were deliberately, and rightly, made accessible to people of all faiths and none. Those who wish to say the traditional Angelus prayer still can, but that minute can also be used for other kinds of prayer and reflection, if desired. Or not. The prayer itself is never broadcast in these slots and is not imposed on viewers.

As one primary school headmaster, Harry Rowan, commented, "To the person of faith, it's a moment of grace; to the person without faith, it's a moment of peace. What's not to like?"

That would be RTÉ's aspiration. Nonetheless, the current format is in need of renewal, offering an opportunity for creative thinking about how RTÉ fills the slots.

One day a week, RTÉ will open up the 6.00pm slot to aspiring filmmakers - particularly those in secondary and third level education - as a showcase for their creativity and skills. Rather like the fourth plinth in London's Trafalgar Square, which has become a transient space for exhibiting new work, these short films will, subject to technical, legal and editorial compliance, showcase varied and sometimes challenging new work, across a range of styles and genres, for which, in due course, the public will get a chance to vote, to find a favourite and to award prize money.

Work may vary from traditional to avant garde and cover a broad spectrum from piety to secularity - e.g. from time-lapse footage of a flower opening to a silent minute of a sleeping child's face; from animation to stills. There is no reason why the challenge should not also inspire submissions from, and reflect the cultures of, Ireland's minority faith communities.

On the other six days, RTÉ will rotate a series of 6 x 1'15" commissioned films, with 2 x 1'15" additional seasonal episodes, commissioned to run during the Christmas period.
Proposals for these commissioned slots should demonstrate both creativity and sensitivity, in order that the content is conducive to prayer or reflection for people of all faiths and none, rather than being seen as exclusively reflecting any one faith, or non-faith, position.

The commissioned films will be 1'15" in duration, in HD, 16:9, and will feature non-verbal content that is fully compliant with RTÉ Programme Makers' and BAI Guidelines (see links below). They should be able to bear multiple repetitions over a period of 2-4 years. The traditional chimes in their 3-3-3-9 sequence should be retained, but can be treated creatively, as, for instance, in the current televised versions, where they appear to be heard over a trawler skipper's radio or from a distant spire: http://www.rte.ie/tv/angelus/index.html

http://hub.rte.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/rte-journalism-guidelines-oct-2012-final.pdf

http://www.bai.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/20130408_BAICOFOI_OnlineVer_bf.pdf

Suggested budget: €20,000
No. of episodes: 8 x 1'15" including two seasonal Christmas editions.
Deadline for proposals: 12.00, Friday 29th May, 2015.
For further information, contact Roger Childs: email: Roger.childs@rte.ie / 01 208 4586 / 087 953 7542.

oscarBravo · 01-06-2015 2:07pm

"...to the person without faith, it's a moment of peace. What's not to like?"

Eighteen teeth-jarring bongs while I'm waiting for the news to start, that's what.

recedite · 01-06-2015 2:14pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Eighteen teeth-jarring bongs while I'm waiting for the news to start, that's what.

I like to check out the headlines on BBC between 6.00 and 6.01, so it suits me. But if the film shorts are any good, I might watch them sometimes for the one day a week they are on. It would be a good time/place for TY year students and the like to showcase their talents.

kylith · 01-06-2015 2:45pm

If the majority of people don't want the pause that the angelus gives removed then just rename it the Reflection/Meditation Minute and switch from church bells to a nice piece of relaxing music. Job's a good 'un.

Brian Shanahan · 01-06-2015 8:20pm

kylith wrote: »

If the majority of people don't want the pause that the angelus gives removed then just rename it the Reflection/Meditation Minute and switch from church bells to a nice piece of relaxing music. Job's a good 'un.

I reckon RTÉ are lying through their arses about the "most people want the angelus kept", most people don't care about the angelus, and wouldn't give two ****s whether it went or stayed. But then this is the same station that paid out over one Shítdependent "journalist" calling another a homophobe (actually the more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the opinion that Waters asked Brenny to try and goad Panti into saying it as a favour).

looksee · 01-06-2015 10:24pm

I find myself increasingly atheist, which at my age is a bit dodgy

I never was Catholic and have not a great deal to thank the RC church for, but even so I don't have a problem with the one minute slot, granted without the bongs would probably be better, but it is not something that bothers me.

Of course the fact that I rarely have the tv on, on any channel, means that the whole argument doesn't really affect me. Still, if they want to do a minute's reflection I am ok with it.

oscarBravo · 01-06-2015 11:26pm

I hear the Angelus a lot more often on radio than TV, because I tend to drive in silence until it approaches the top of the hour and then turn on the RTE1 news. Twice a day, I either have to listen to those head-wrecking chimes, or divide my attention from the road twice to fiddle the volume down then up again.

I would dearly love to see it gone.

Absolam · 01-06-2015 11:33pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I reckon RTÉ are lying through their arses about the "most people want the angelus kept", most people don't care about the angelus, and wouldn't give two ****s whether it went or stayed.

What reason do you think they have for lying? I imagine falsifying their own audience research would take some degree of conspiracy, never mind the straw polls of other media, so it must be a doozy.

The Hazards of Belief

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