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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #422
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Chloris wrote: »
    Hating that any money is put into it? Ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion but that's a really crappy attitude about a language which was stolen from us.

    If your car was stolen from you and burnt out, would you recover the vehicle and spend thousands trying fruitlessly to restore it to it's former condition?

    The Irish language is a stolen burnt out wreck of a car, waiting to be scrapped.

    It might be of some use to somebody, but it's never going to be what it was! (and I don't say that with any vitriol in my heart btw)


  • #423
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Wibbs wrote: »
    That was another issue with its teaching, at least in my day. There was the sniff of "this is your native language so you should be able to speak it quite easily so we'll teach it along those lines".
    That was it, exactly. Now I think back on it, it's hard to believe how we were started with such difficult grammar, age approx. six - all the lists of pronouns and declensions....did they think we were just going to absorb it holistically and start conversing, by virtue of being Irish?

    Learning German in secondary, I don't think we touched on those aspects until we had a passable vocabulary geared on getting us around in Germany, from buying a train ticket to asking for a coffee/cake in a shop.

    The Irish curriculum has changed somewhat now and is very much more conversation based, but the workbooks are a nightmare for helping children with. There isn't a word of English in them, so in order to help my kids answer questions, we were picking a pertinent word (on the advice of the teacher) and looking through the relevant story again and again to pull out a sentence that looked like a likely answer. Not a one of us understanding the words we were reading. A disaster, from start to finish.
    Deranged96 wrote: »
    don't worry shep, no one's out to torture a cúpla focal out of you
    Ah, but they are. That's the entire problem. All school kids who don't take to the language are tormented by having to continue "learning" it to LC level.


  • #424
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Again that's the problem, for the majority of people on the island it hasn't been a part of their identity for generations. Myself being of Dublin stock going back four generations on both sides means that the last native Irish speaker in my blood was likely early 19th century(and on one side likely before that). The Leinster Irish dialect has been extinct for at least a century. Irish is quite literally a "foreign language" to me and I'd not be alone in that.

    Also, no you are certainly not alone in that. Both sides of my paternal family are from inside the Pale going back however far we can look. I'd say that as my family originates from the farmlands to the North of Dublin, and ended up as traders/grocers inside Dublin, our family hasn't necessarily had Irish since the 1400's at the latest.


  • #425
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Chloris wrote: »
    Hating that any money is put into it? Ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion but that's a really crappy attitude about a language which was stolen from us.
    Nobody stole the Irish language from us. We gave it up because we found English provided better social and economic opportunities.

    It is not the Irish language that has failed but the entire Irish way of life failed hundreds of years ago as it could not compete with the more virulent British culture. It's a cultural case of 'survival of the fittest'. We adapted and survived.

    There's nothing wrong with putting a bit of money into an interesting vestigial language, especially if it entertains the tourists, but making the whole country speak Irish to satisfy the cultural vanity of some enthusiasts is going too far.


  • #426
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Shrap wrote: »
    we were picking a pertinent word (on the advice of the teacher) and looking through the relevant story again and again to pull out a sentence that looked like a likely answer. Not a one of us understanding the words we were reading. A disaster, from start to finish.

    That's tough for you and your child. Homework can bring a household to a

    standstill. PM me if you ever have a problem with Irish homework and I will gladly

    help you out.


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  • #427
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Nobody stole the Irish language from us. We gave it up because we found English provided better social and economic opportunities.

    It is not the Irish language that has failed but the entire Irish way of life failed hundreds of years ago as it could not compete with the more virulent British culture. It's a cultural case of 'survival of the fittest'. We adapted and survived.

    There's nothing wrong with putting a bit of money into an interesting vestigial language, especially if it entertains the tourists, but making the whole country speak Irish to satisfy the cultural vanity of some enthusiasts is going too far.

    ^^100% agree with this!

    I'd also add that, as a nation some people really need to take the chip off their shoulder with regard to the english language and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

    Some people view english as a foreign language, given to us by our former colonial masters.

    But this is no longer the case. We have adopted english as our language, and we actually speak it quite differently to any other country!

    America also speaks english, and they bully Britain at any opportunity they get. So it's no longer seen as the language of our former oppressors! :D

    It's a worldwide language - owned by the world.


  • #428
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Aineoil wrote: »
    That's tough for you and your child. Homework can bring a household to a

    standstill. PM me if you ever have a problem with Irish homework and I will gladly

    help you out.

    That's very kind of you, thanks, but it's too late in the day - eldest just about to sit LC and has dropped Irish, youngest already doing (meaningless, for college places) foundation level in 1st year. They made an exception for him as I told them I wasn't going to be doing another 6 years of Irish homework for him.

    At primary level, I used to send notes back to school sometimes in the homework notebook saying "Very sorry my Irish homework not completed but it was too hard for me, signed *Mum*".


  • #429
    Un Croissant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Un Croissant


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    ^^100% agree with this!

    I'd also add that, as a nation some people really need to take the chip off their shoulder with regard to the english language and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

    Some people view english as a foreign language, given to us by our former colonial masters.

    But this is no longer the case. We have adopted english as our language, and we actually speak it quite differently to any other country!

    America also speaks english, and they bully Britain at any opportunity they get. So it's no longer seen as the language of our former oppressors! :D

    It's a worldwide language - owned by the world.

    My OH is Korean, she came here as an English student. I often joke that what I teach her isn't English and won't help her pass any exams :D


  • #430
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    I'd also add that, as a nation some people really need to take the chip off their shoulder with regard to the english language and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

    Shouldn't some people take the chip off their shoulder with regards to the Irish language?


  • #431
    compo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭compo1


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    Think the problems that the Irish language have are too deep seated for it to matter a damn who the minister is. Generations of us under all governments were taught the language badly and left school with no love for what was an obligation.
    That's about it. Many left school having been "taught" Irish by teachers who shouldn't have been teaching the language and probably shouldn't have been teaching at all. A suggestion recently was that ALL schoolkids in their first three years do everything "as Gaeilge". Of course, this also needs teachers who actually love what they're doing. They're around alright, but the others need to be weeded out.


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  • #432
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Aineoil wrote: »
    Shouldn't some people take the chip off their shoulder with regards to the Irish language?

    If that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

    But I don't see many people hating on the Irish language. Just many who are apathetic to it's use as it's the cultural elephant in the room that nobody in this country has the b*lls to sort out. ;)


  • #433
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    mickstupp wrote: »
    I failed Irish at pass level. Overall, I didn't get enough points in my Leaving Cert to get into any university course in the country at that time. When I was 30, I went to university, without all those stupid arbitrary restrictions that are imposed until the age of 23. Now I'm doing a PhD. The university, department, and my supervisor all think I'm capable of this.

    You would disagree with them wholeheartedly, it seems, and consider me unfit for higher level study simply because I couldn't handle Ordinary level Irish.

    Foundation level Irish does hold students back, literally, in an actual real world way. That's because many courses in Irish universities have Ordinary level Irish as an entrance requirement for Irish citizens under the age of 23, despite the fact that almost every one of those courses has no Irish language component whatsoever.

    Your opinion is plainly not reflecting reality.

    Being honest, if you can reach phd level, Irish should not be an issue for you.
    I am trying to show it is not about intelligence, I have already posted that earlier, it is about attitude not aptitude.
    You just have to want to learn it. Its the same with any subject.

    My earlier post joshing another poster regarding Irish and University, was due to that posters attitude.
    I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.


  • #434
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Shrap wrote: »
    That's very kind of you, thanks, but it's too late in the day - eldest just about to sit LC and has dropped Irish, youngest already doing (meaningless, for college places) foundation level in 1st year. They made an exception for him as I told them I wasn't going to be doing another 6 years of Irish homework for him.

    At primary level, I used to send notes back to school sometimes in the homework notebook saying "Very sorry my Irish homework not completed but it was too hard for me, signed *Mum*".

    So sorry we didn't meet earlier in our children's lives.

    I completely understand your antipathy towards the language. If you look at my

    earlier posts you'll see that I am very fluent in Irish and my husband is a native

    speaker. Our son can't string a sentence together in Irish.

    Why?

    We never saw Irish as being that important and we didn't want a bilingual family situation.

    We both love the language but we never felt it was that important that he
    spoke it. It was more important that he enjoyed school at primary level and chose the subjects he liked in secondary. I entertained sending him to a Gaelscoil but after a visit decided not to. Chose Educate Together.

    Many people have posted about the teaching of Irish, reflecting on bygone days. It's not like that today. Teaching Irish today is about modelling and conversation. It's very interactive - ipads etc. Bua na Cainte is an excellent program.

    Bottom line is that to promote Irish you have to create a need.

    There's no need to learn Irish.

    But I still want to. It's nice to have.


  • #435
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    tipparetops wrote: »
    I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.
    Why not? Why can't people just choose which language they would like to learn?


  • #436
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    tipparetops wrote: »
    i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

    Yeah, cos nine years of attempting to learn Irish (and then giving up age 15) to the best of my ability clearly ain't enough trying for you .... :rolleyes:


  • #437
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    tipparetops wrote: »
    My earlier post joshing another poster regarding Irish and University, was due to that posters attitude.
    I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

    You started jeering another poster because you were trying to steer this discussion away from the real issues. You failed.

    Many have attempted to explain the reasons why Irish has become so unpopular, but you just ignore their points in favor of your one dimensional view point. Just try harder people!


  • #438
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Why not? Why can't people just choose which language they would like to learn?

    i would not mind if that were the case, but it is not.


  • #439
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Aineoil wrote: »
    So sorry we didn't meet earlier in our children's lives.

    I completely understand your antipathy towards the language. If you look at my

    earlier posts you'll see that I am very fluent in Irish and my husband is a native

    speaker. Our son can't string a sentence together in Irish.

    Why?

    We never saw Irish as being that important and we didn't want a bilingual family situation.

    We both love the language but we never felt it was that important that he
    spoke it. It was more important that he enjoyed school at primary level and chose the subjects he liked in secondary. I entertained sending him to a Gaelscoil but after a visit decided not to. Chose Educate Together.

    Many people have posted about the teaching of Irish, reflecting on bygone days. It's not like that today. Teaching Irish today is about modelling and conversation. It's very interactive - ipads etc. Bua na Cainte is an excellent program.

    Bottom line is that to promote Irish you have to create a need.

    There's no need to learn Irish.

    But I still want to. It's nice to have.
    Nicely said. And in my opinion, good choice on the Educate Together school! I wish we had one locally, but in fairness the NS was brilliant despite not being able to be as inclusive as they'd like to be. Irish in primary was great for my kids (apart from the language barrier over the homework books) but it all went south in secondary when they were expected to have the basics that they just hadn't grasped in primary.

    I appreciate your pragmatism, thanks.


  • #440
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    You started jeering another poster because you were trying to steer this discussion away from the real issues. You failed.

    Many have attempted to explain the reasons why Irish has become so unpopular, but you just ignore their points in favor of your one dimensional view point. Just try harder people!

    It is possible to teach old dogs new tricks.
    May you should try barking at yourself.:pac:


  • #441
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    If that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

    But I don't see many people hating on the Irish language. Just many who are apathetic to it's use as it's the cultural elephant in the room that nobody in this country has the b*lls to sort out. ;)

    How do you want it sorted?


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  • #442
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Shrap wrote: »
    Nicely said. And in my opinion, good choice on the Educate Together school! I wish we had one locally, but in fairness the NS was brilliant despite not being able to be as inclusive as they'd like to be. Irish in primary was great for my kids (apart from the language barrier over the homework books) but it all went south in secondary when they were expected to have the basics that they just hadn't grasped in primary.

    I appreciate your pragmatism, thanks.

    Thank you for the reply. Most schools these days follow the Educate Together model, with the exception of communion and confirmation and the hours spent on preparation for both.

    I do think secondary schools have to rethink how they teach Irish.


  • #443
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    I am certainly re-railing this thread but have you any idea ideas about the amount

    of the school day is wasted on communion and confirmation preparation?


  • #444
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    tipparetops wrote: »
    i would not mind if that were the case, but it is not.
    So you cannot understand why people don't succeed in learning a language when the only motivation is compulsion.

    You don't understand human nature.


  • #445
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,098 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    tipparetops wrote: »
    You just have to want to learn it. Its the same with any subject.

    I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

    Hard as is for Irish language zealots to grasp, there is a significant segment of the Irish population who fail to be enthused by the language and don't give a rat's ass about it and you can't change that. They'll just go through the motions to learn it parrot-fashion and drop it the minute they finish the exams and leave school, means to an end.
    You can't make people 'like' what you like.


  • #446
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    So you cannot understand why people don't succeed in learning a language when the only motivation is compulsion.

    You don't understand human nature.

    No you took me up wrong - you stated people should choose what language they wished to study.
    My reply is ireland is not known for its linguistics.


  • #447
    mickstupp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    tipparetops wrote: »
    Being honest, if you can reach phd level, Irish should not be an issue for you.
    I am trying to show it is not about intelligence, I have already posted that earlier, it is about attitude not aptitude.
    You just have to want to learn it.     Its the same with any subject.

    My earlier post joshing another poster regarding Irish and University, was due to that posters attitude.
    I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.
    Do you understand that what you've said is actually pretty insulting? You have no idea how much I or anyone else tried to learn the language, but you're assuming it's our fault that we couldn't learn the language. Nothing to do with the crappy text books, useless teachers, complete aversion to teaching proper grammatical concepts. No. Our fault, for not trying.

    Anyone else have to do that exercise where you memorised the steps of getting up in the morning, getting dressed, making tea and toast, and brushing your teeth? Did anyone ever have the grammar explained to them? Was there ever a point to that exercise? Because it was never explained to me. Nor was anything else in Irish.

    But even though the structure of the language was never explained to me... it's my fault for not trying hard enough. I guess if I clenched my jaw a little harder my brain might have been able to magically glean the rules of Irish grammar from the junk I was being forced to learn off by heart for no good reason. I should have had a mystical natural ability to absorb it. Clearly. I mean it's our native tongue right? Should've just opened my soul to the genetic memory of Irish and let it flow into me. But I didn't want it hard enough.

    In any case... you made the point that a person who couldn't handle Ordinary Irish had no place at third level. That point was rubbish. And whether a person can reach PhD level in their chosen subject has zero to do with an ability or aptitude, or for you an attitude, fit for learning Irish.


  • #448
    Reiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Reiver


    tipparetops wrote: »
    No you took me up wrong - you stated people should choose what language they wished to study.
    My reply is ireland is not known for its linguistics.

    In fairness, he's not much wrong. Us and the Brits are the worst in Europe with languages.


  • #449
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    mickstupp wrote: »
    Do you understand that what you've said is actually pretty insulting? You have no idea how much I or anyone else tried to learn the language, but you're assuming it's our fault that we couldn't learn the language. Nothing to do with the crappy text books, useless teachers, complete aversion to teaching proper grammatical concepts. No. Our fault, for not trying.

    Anyone else have to do that exercise where you memorised the steps of getting up in the morning, getting dressed, making tea and toast, and brushing your teeth? Did anyone ever have the grammar explained to them? Was there ever a point to that exercise? Because it was never explained to me. Nor was anything else in Irish.

    But even though the structure of the language was never explained to me... it's my fault for not trying hard enough. I guess if I clenched my jaw a little harder my brain might have been able to magically glean the rules of Irish grammar from the junk I was being forced to learn off by heart for no good reason. I should have had a mystical natural ability to absorb it. Clearly. I mean it's our native tongue right? Should've just opened my soul to the genetic memory of Irish and let it flow into me. But I didn't want it hard enough.

    You should read all the posts. I was talking about the present, there is nothing stopping you now from learning it. Try duolingo.com to get you started. Teach yourself. You just need the right attitude.


  • #450
    mickstupp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    tipparetops wrote: »
    You should read all the posts. I was talking about the present, there is nothing stopping you now from learning it. Try duolingo.com to get you started. Teach yourself. You just need the right attitude.
    Do you or do you not understand the problem with the part I've bolded?

    Why do you believe an ability to learn Irish is about attitude?


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  • #451
    tipparetops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭tipparetops


    mickstupp wrote: »
    Do you or do you not understand the problem with the part I've bolded?

    Why do you believe an ability to learn Irish is about attitude?

    I believe the key to learn any subject is attitude.


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