Luas for Galway

monument · 30-05-2015 2:59pm #1

In the context of public transport alturnatives to the planned Galway bypass, here's a suggestion (click here for Google Maps):

These are the sections above, routes could combine sections:

BLUE: Western Distributor Rd - NUI Galway section - Dyke Rd
GREEN: Dyke Road - Wellpark - Ballybane Industrial Estate
RED: Dyke Road - Eyre Square - [Ceannt] Station Hub - Renmore - GMIT - Ballybane Industrial Estate
ORANGE: Ballybane Industrial Estate - Parkmore West
PURPLE: Ballybane Industrial Estate - Briarhill
YELLOW: Alternative sections

Serves:

Western Distributor Rd
Possible park and rides near the N/M6 at Briarhill, beside the N17, and at the western end of the Western Distributor Rd
Many business and industrial parks
A large number of shopping centres (Eyre Square, Headford Rd shopping centres, Wellpark, Corrib, Gateway Retail Park, Westside etc)
The city centre
The public train/bus station
NUIG and GMIT
University College Hospital

Other features:

Leaves the N6 / Quincentenary Bridge / N59 route to bypass traffic
Suggests junction upgrades on the above route (I'd go further again, but that would not be part of the tram project)
An interchange commuter rail station at Renmore
Retained space to double track the railway line
Bicycle parking at all stops and guarded / gated parking at key stops

Background:

A few people have side that a tram route for Galway was impractical because it would have to serve both the city centre and east-west commutes, so that made me start thinking about it.

At first I came to the same conclusion: An east-west route serving the residential areas of the west and the employment areas of the would be impractical as it could not in any way serve the city centre without a lot of extra services. For a more sustainable route that will be attractive at different times of the day, the route must serves a mix of areas including shopping, residential, employment, educational, entertainment etc.

Because of the restrictive road network and building layout directly west of the city centre, a route from the west crossing into the city centre and onto the north east would be difficult and would have include unacceptable delay for trams or an impractical level of traffic restrictions.

A Salthill - Southpark - Docklands route might be possible but it would be too far south to suit the bulk of east-west commutes. A Quincentenary Bridge bridge would be too far north for city centre access.

So, I got looking at NUIG and the University College Hospital grounds -- the purchase or CPO of just one private house and a few gardens would make a link between the university and the hospital... CPOs of houses usually avoided, but that's far less damage than any bypass suggested.

Cost:

Luas will be 42.5km @ ~€1.5 billion, so it was around 35,294,117 per km for Luas in Dublin. Based on those prices which combines a mix of route types and areas: Galway Luas of 17km (as above) will be €599,999,989. That's more expensive than some of the bypass suggested prices but lower than that higher ranges for the bypass. You could build some sections in phases.

30-05-2015 5:03pm

Far more efficient to increase the coverage and frequency of bus routes in a city the size of Galway. This could be done within weeks/months whereas a luas would take over a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I think the luas is amazing and one of the best things ever done for Dublin, I just think with the distances being so much shorter, it doesn't make sense to not at least go down the bus option further first.

porsche959 · 30-05-2015 5:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Far more efficient to increase the coverage and frequency of bus routes in a city the size of Galway. This could be done within weeks/months whereas a luas would take over a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I think the luas is amazing and one of the best things ever done for Dublin, I just think with the distances being so much shorter, it doesn't make sense to not at least go down the bus option further first.

No offense, but it's this kind of short-termism that screws Irish transport.

Buses are noisy, slow, polluting and take up a lot of space.

There are plenty of cities in Europe and even some in the UK of similar population sizes to Galway with Light Rail.

monument · 30-05-2015 5:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Far more efficient to increase the coverage and frequency of bus routes in a city the size of Galway. This could be done within weeks/months whereas a luas would take over a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I think the luas is amazing and one of the best things ever done for Dublin, I just think with the distances being so much shorter, it doesn't make sense to not at least go down the bus option further first.

Many cities have battled with the bus or tram argument and end up going with trams.

Some key advantages of trams in this case, in

-- Key links suggested in the above routes would be a lot harder and less attractive to use for buses

-- Trams are more likely to reduce car use all day long.

-- Trams are more likely not to need a subsidy or only need a lower subsidy

-- Trams are less polluting and less noisy

-- Trams are more accessible for wherlchair users, others with mobility issues and prams

-- Routes easier to understand for new and one-off users (events, tourists etc).

-- Dedicated routes would be harder to push through for buses (for a range of reasons from spending on trams easier to agreement from residents etc).

ClovenHoof · 30-05-2015 6:45pm

LOL the Lovechild of West on Track has been born!

monument · 30-05-2015 7:54pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

LOL the Lovechild of West on Track has been born!

The productive posts only rule still applies when mods start threads.

Galway City has the population to suit a modest light rail line with branches, and park and ride. You need detailed reasoning, to claim otherwise.

stehyl15 · 30-05-2015 8:57pm

porsche959 wrote: »

Buses are noisy, slow, polluting and take up a lot of space.

There are plenty of cities in Europe and even some in the UK of similar population sizes to Galway with Light Rail.

Liverpool is twice the size of Dublin and it dosen't even have trams it just has buses and Merseyrail (similar to the Dart)

stehyl15 · 30-05-2015 8:59pm

Perhaps a BRT system might work in Galway

monument · 30-05-2015 9:11pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Liverpool is twice the size of Dublin and it dosen't even have trams it just has buses and Merseyrail (similar to the Dart)

While trams for Liverpool have stalled, Merseytravel still want to go ahead with something like three lines making up 50-60km of tram routes.

stehyl15 wrote: »

Perhaps a BRT system might work in Galway

I'd love to see a workable route/s and I'd image BRT would be received even more poorly in Galway than it has been in Dublin.

Aard · 30-05-2015 9:49pm

monument wrote: »

Galway City has the population to suit a modest light rail line with branches, and park and ride.

One of the big problems with branched lightrail lines is that it costs more-or-less the same to build each branch per km, however each only receives a half-service. As such, branches end up costing more per km as each is only used half as much as it "could" be. The same is, of course, true of any non-branch lines that don't run every single tram to the absolute end terminus (as happens on the Green Luas in Dublin for example).

Park & Ride is generally not acceped to be economically sustainable -- LRT stations generally increase neighbouring property prices to such an extent that the land given over to subsidised parking would have a "higher and best use" in residential or in certain, more accessible places, retail/office.

Wrt Galway, I would see it as necessary to link any rapid-transit route with Ceannt. Given the layout of Galway city centre, I do wonder whether LRT would be the most appropriate mode. I am reluctant to use the term BRT for the simple reason that it is so emotive, and generally misunderstood.

Amalgamating bus routes such that there was a "core" route with a ten-minute headway and the associated infrastructure (yeah, I know.... BRT by another name) would allow Galway to take advantage of its more linear layout.

A few strategic bus-only links could help. One that occurs is a bus-only route through the Hospital grounds from University Road to Seamus Quirke Road. I'm sure there are plenty more.

monument · 31-05-2015 12:30am

Aard wrote: »

One of the big problems with branched lightrail lines is that it costs more-or-less the same to build each branch per km, however each only receives a half-service. As such, branches end up costing more per km as each is only used half as much as it "could" be. The same is, of course, true of any non-branch lines that don't run every single tram to the absolute end terminus (as happens on the Green Luas in Dublin for example)

This would be more of a problem in a very high-density area where you want to max out the tram lines but in Galway we're not likely to be doing that.

It's often still a sound idea to serve close-to-end-of-line areas even if they are not as profitable per km as more central areas -- I'm fairly sure the orange branch to Parkmore West meets that requirement, even if the the Briarhill branch (purple) trails behind.

Aard wrote: »

Park & Ride is generally not acceped to be economically sustainable -- LRT stations generally increase neighbouring property prices to such an extent that the land given over to subsidised parking would have a "higher and best use" in residential or in certain, more accessible places, retail/office.

All of the suggested park and ride stops also serve other areas, while two of them are also in areas where there is no great pressure on land.

Car-based park and ride might not be ideal in any sustainability terms, but it's a solution for an imperfect world. My inclusion of park and ride is a bow to the transport planning in many of the more sustainable small to mid-sized European cities. Basically there's an understanding many do need to use cars to get to the city and that it's better to allow those people to park up and hop on a tram.

Aard wrote: »

Wrt Galway, I would see it as necessary to link any rapid-transit route with Ceannt.

I agree, it's included:

Aard wrote: »

Given the layout of Galway city centre, I do wonder whether LRT would be the most appropriate mode.

Why?

Aard wrote: »

I am reluctant to use the term BRT for the simple reason that it is so emotive, and generally misunderstood.

Amalgamating bus routes such that there was a "core" route with a ten-minute headway and the associated infrastructure (yeah, I know.... BRT by another name) would allow Galway to take advantage of its more linear layout.

A few strategic bus-only links could help. One that occurs is a bus-only route through the Hospital grounds from University Road to Seamus Quirke Road. I'm sure there are plenty more.

For such as sprawling hospital grounds with such congested and constrained roads around it, I'm not sure it would be fair to many hospital visitors to much further restrict car access around the hospital. But with or without restrictions, it's likely doable to fit a dedicated BRT route as much as it is to fit a dedicated tram route on the hospital grounds.

Your real problem is east of the University Hospital. The current road network is very constrained. And even if demolition was not off the table (which it likely is for BRT), there's just no route suitable for BRT towards the city centre.

Even if you could get buses moving faster than most city bound traffic, getting the buses back out towards the north east employment areas would be just too much of a time delay.

dubhthach · 31-05-2015 11:13am

How much demolition within the University ground would be required? Or is a case you are looking at an elevated section? Just a note Google maps doesn't show the space taken up by the Nursing/Midwifery library which extends south off the James Hardiman library.

cgcsb · 31-05-2015 12:06pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Liverpool is twice the size of Dublin and it dosen't even have trams it just has buses and Merseyrail (similar to the Dart)

It most certainly is nothing of the sort

monument · 31-05-2015 1:01pm

dubhthach wrote: »

How much demolition within the University ground would be required? Or is a case you are looking at an elevated section? Just a note Google maps doesn't show the space taken up by the Nursing/Midwifery library which extends south off the James Hardiman library.

Ideally only the Áras De Brún building, the route could fit around it but it would be a very curved section which would slow down trams notably.

Is the nursing library somewhere where the question mark is here?...

This is a close up of what I had:

dubhthach · 31-05-2015 1:18pm

Sure but Áras De Brun is used for academic offices, the nursing library does indeed fall into "? area", if this was running on grade you gonna be also blocking access to front door of Áras na Gaeilge (digging up pedestrian access routes in that area). Given that the embankment on old railway bridge is about 15-20 feet high ye'd have to probably elevate the scheme from Áras de Brun onwards to remove excessive gradient.

Given how the College was about the Red route when it came to road proposals I'd hardly expect them to be esctatic about such an encroachment onto their estate. I doubt the boat club which abuts the embankment would be too happy either.

Would you see any such scheme running Standard Gauge (like the LUAS) or on 1-meter Narrow gauge like alot of the smaller tram systems in France?

scouserstation · 31-05-2015 2:08pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Liverpool is twice the size of Dublin and it dosen't even have trams it just has buses and Merseyrail (similar to the Dart)

The city of Liverpool actually has a smaller population than Dublin and although they may not have as good a transport system as say Manchester or London they do have an underground orbital railway route, similar to what we are striving for here with Dart underground.

monument · 31-05-2015 3:47pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure but Áras De Brun is used for academic offices, the nursing library does indeed fall into "? area", if this was running on grade you gonna be also blocking access to front door of Áras na Gaeilge (digging up pedestrian access routes in that area). Given that the embankment on old railway bridge is about 15-20 feet high ye'd have to probably elevate the scheme from Áras de Brun onwards to remove excessive gradient.

I've found updated layout which includes the nursing library layout on OSI maps and I can't see it being a problem.

At the narrowest points talking about spaces which are wider than Abbey Street at the Jervis tram stop in Dublin -- at NUIG you could fit in a stop in the space and likely also have space left over for a two-way cycle path if they wanted that or a green area or wide footpath area or a mix of these things.

As for elevating the line up to a bridge: Luas is quite good at climbing compared to trains etc. I could be wrong but my estimate is that it would have to start ramping up at or east of the Aquatic Veterinary Group National Diagnostics Centre building -- and from there eastwards to the car park there would be minimum impact caused by shadowing etc.

The overall access benefit of providing the bridge for trams, walking and cycling (the latter two may not have as straight of a run at the bridge from the same direction as trams, at least) would outweigh any temporary or other disruption.

dubhthach wrote: »

Given how the College was about the Red route when it came to road proposals I'd hardly expect them to be esctatic about such an encroachment onto their estate. I doubt the boat club which abuts the embankment would be too happy either.

If tram tracks can be put onto confined spaces on a Dublin hospital campus (St James's) there should be little or no issue in Galway.

Galway Luas would have the following advantages:

It would create a link from NUI into the city centre, to the train/bus station, and to residential, educational and business areas around Galway
It would have a lower footprint on campus land and mainly use open space (ie green areas, a car park)
If Áras De Brun was demolished for a Luas route, it/a new design could be rebuilt over the tram tracks (buildings are allowed over tram tracks)
Trams are less noisy and less polluting than motor traffic
No sports or other facilities will be closed (the use of Áras De Brun could be housed elsewhere temporary or otherwise before the possible demolition)

dubhthach wrote: »

Would you see any such scheme running Standard Gauge (like the LUAS) or on 1-meter Narrow gauge like alot of the smaller tram systems in France?

I'd keep as much as possible as close as possible to Luas. For reasons

dubhthach · 31-05-2015 9:02pm

Well just remember James did object to original route through hospital thence it going around the "backwall", it doesn't really cut through campus at all, in comparison to what you are proposing at NUIG which would bisect the site. Given their attutide on road schemes encroaching on their "Estate" I can't imagine they'd be very happy about tramline.

What alternatives if any exist if the old railway piers can't be used (the old bridge only had one track, but obviously with modern bridge could put dual track over etc.)

monument · 31-05-2015 9:43pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well just remember James did object to original route through hospital thence it going around the "backwall", it doesn't really cut through campus at all, in comparison to what you are proposing at NUIG which would bisect the site. Given their attutide on road schemes encroaching on their "Estate" I can't imagine they'd be very happy about tramline.

What alternatives if any exist if the old railway piers can't be used (the old bridge only had one track, but obviously with modern bridge could put dual track over etc.)

As outlined, the bypass project is far more distruptive. Even if it would have to be pushed on them it's an easier sell for the reasons outlined.

Three alternatives re the bridge: (1) Fully or partly demolish the old structures, (2) leave them in place and build over them with little or no use of them for support, and (3) build a new bridge directly south of the old structures, possablely just using the old structures for a walking and cycling bridge which would not need to take half the strain.

end of the road · 31-05-2015 11:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Far more efficient to increase the coverage and frequency of bus routes in a city the size of Galway. This could be done within weeks/months whereas a luas would take over a decade.

Don't get me wrong, I think the luas is amazing and one of the best things ever done for Dublin, I just think with the distances being so much shorter, it doesn't make sense to not at least go down the bus option further first.

no . busses are outdated. we need something clean, modern and fast. it will save money in the long run as it will mean less congestion meaning not so much roads and road maintenence

end of the road · 31-05-2015 11:58pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Liverpool is twice the size of Dublin and it dosen't even have trams it just has buses and Merseyrail (similar to the Dart)

thats its loss. still no argument for a galway luas.

stehyl15 wrote: »

Perhaps a BRT system might work in Galway

no .

stehyl15 · 01-06-2015 12:30am

end of the road wrote: »

no . busses are outdated. we need something clean, modern and fast. it will save money in the long run as it will mean less congestion meaning not so much roads and road maintenence

Galway isin't even really a city more of a large town by international standards sure its only marginally bigger than Tallaght. The majority of people that work in Galway are probably commuting from outer towns. I would imagine for a fit and able person to walk into the city centre from any of the surronding suburbs so not that many people will benefit from. A bypass might be the best option unfortunely. Another idea would be to introduce a trolleybus system all you really need to do is put up overhead wires and a deadicated bus lane.

end of the road · 01-06-2015 12:51am

stehyl15 wrote: »

Galway isin't even really a city more of a large town by international standards sure its only marginally bigger than Tallaght.

means nothing. in an irish context its a city, thats all that matters, and your forgetting about future growth which we want to encourage

stehyl15 wrote: »

The majority of people that work in Galway are probably commuting from outer towns. I would imagine for a fit and able person to walk into the city centre from any of the surronding suburbs so not that many people will benefit from.

park and ride. all ready mentioned by the op

stehyl15 wrote: »

A bypass might be the best option unfortunely.

that is probably happening anyway so it is irrelevant.

stehyl15 wrote: »

Another idea would be to introduce a trolleybus system all you really need to do is put up overhead wires and a deadicated bus lane.

you may as well build the tram

stehyl15 · 01-06-2015 1:50pm

end of the road wrote: »

you may as well build the tram

If its cheaper then a tram why not

monument · 01-06-2015 2:10pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

If its cheaper then a tram why not

Because trams have clear advantages over buses (as already outlined in detail), including viable dedicated routes into and across the city centre?

What routes do you think would be suitable for buses or BRT?

stehyl15 · 01-06-2015 4:17pm

monument wrote: »

Because trams have clear advantages over buses (as already outlined in detail), including viable dedicated routes into and across the city centre?

What routes do you think would be suitable for buses or BRT?

The same route as the proposed luas would take

end of the road · 01-06-2015 4:22pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

If its cheaper then a tram why not

because whats the point when you can spend the few extra quid and have a full tram system instead of a trolly bus system. you still have to have overhead wires, still have to take road out of use for it. cheeper isn't always the best option, its time people learned this. sometimes you have got to spend to gain

stehyl15 · 01-06-2015 4:51pm

Cork has a far bigger population it could do with a luas far more then Galway

monument · 01-06-2015 5:05pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Cork has a far bigger population it could do with a luas far more then Galway

So one city needing projects is a now a valid argument against transport planning in another city?

stehyl15 wrote: »

The same route as the proposed luas would take

Have you read the thread at all? It's not a viable route for anything but trams because of the acceptably of demolition and land take is much lower for buses and the gradients of at least one key bridge would not work for buses.

end of the road · 01-06-2015 5:08pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Cork has a far bigger population it could do with a luas far more then Galway

both could do with a luas. infact cork could do with more heavy rail. its all about growth. dublin can only spread out or go up so much. the whole thing is about investing in transport that can take us into the future and can deal with growth that we need to encourage for the rest of our cities. not simply a transport project that deals with the here and now that has to be upgraded at great cost later. that means, busses and trolly busses and other such nonsense just don't cut it. trams are much more efficient at moving very large amounts of people, they are completely accessible, they mean less staff to operate as 1 2 or more car tram can be driven by a driver.

Victor · 01-06-2015 6:43pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Liverpool is twice the size of Dublin and it dosen't even have trams it just has buses and Merseyrail (similar to the Dart)

That's an insult to Merseyrail, which is a basic underground system with multiple lines, a city centre loop and no level crossings!.

http://www.itoworld.com/map/171?lon=-2.99067&lat=53.40430&zoom=11&fullscreen=true
http://www.itoworld.com/map/68?lon=-2.99067&lat=53.40419&zoom=11&fullscreen=true

monument wrote: »

Because trams have clear advantages over buses (as already outlined in detail), including viable dedicated routes into and across the city centre?

Why can't buses be given 'viable dedicated routes'?

monument · 01-06-2015 7:45pm

Victor wrote: »

Why can't buses be given 'viable dedicated routes'?

Because the grid of roads and streets west of the city centre and east of Threadneedle Rd / Bishop O'Donnell Rd is too restrictive to provide a dedicated, fast and reliable east-west route.

The route via NUIG etc for Luas would be far less attractive for BRT / buses because of noise, pollution, tight fits, and gradients of the bridge. Selling demolition for buses would also be a lot harder than the same for LRT.

Iwannahurl · 01-06-2015 11:39pm

UKTram Report: Investigation into the Economic Impacts on Cities of Investment in Light Rail Systems

Report commissioned by UKTram, published June 2014

"Major cities in the United Kingdom have created effective post-industrial economies, which lead their regional economies. However, most of the UK’s larger city regions remain less competitive than key comparator locations in Europe and beyond (Docherty et al. 2009). Transport plays a critical role in facilitating this competitiveness. High quality transport services and infrastructure improves labour market performance, helps attract inward investment and helps to create an improved quality of life. This report summarises independent, peer-reviewed, and other evidence from the UK, mainland Europe, North America and elsewhere and shows that investment in light rail systems can have positive economic impacts on cities. However, light rail investment alone is unlikely to be a sufficient catalyst for economic change without other supportive policies."

The report by Professor Richard Knowles and Dr Fiona Ferbrache can be downloaded here: http://www.railforthevalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/LR-UK-LightRailReport-An-investigation-into-the-economic-impacts-on-cities-of-investment-in-light-rail.pdf

Tram in Plauen, Germany (pop 64,000):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6wSqQiMwA4

Halberstadt (pop. 40,500):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmmOIaJmoaQ

Nordhausen (pop. 42,000):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYGT4ta2YnY

Frankfurt-Oder (pop. 58,500):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0VG0WzZdps

Valenciennes, France (pop. 41,000):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5_5SWYlcSk

Norrkoping, Sweden (pop. 87,000):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-nl3Gsn3HA

Markcheese · 02-06-2015 7:29am

Tram / brt there's not much difference - people are anti brt because they think it's just a bus lane -
Cork city council / county council have done investigative and advance planning on Rail / brt lines for the city to balincolig - out to carrigaline and a route through mayfield - their conclusion was that Brt was probably best and only balincolig going past UCC CUH and Cit would have the population in the FUTURE to provide a viable line -

lucernarian · 02-06-2015 12:52pm

end of the road wrote: »

because whats the point when you can spend the few extra quid and have a full tram system instead of a trolly bus system. you still have to have overhead wires, still have to take road out of use for it. cheeper isn't always the best option, its time people learned this. sometimes you have got to spend to gain

You haven't outlined any of these relevant reasons to spend "the few extra quid". I can think of some, like the asthetics of trams vs buses and its resulting attractiveness to potential uses. And Monument mentioned some putative points on why trams could be better.

Unless some definitive proof is shown that a well-designed, accessible, modern, speedy (dedicated infrastructure) and cheaper BRT system could still be much inferior to light rail and street-based trams, I don't see why an ideally-designed BRT should be knocked on the head for Galway if it were cheaper. I don't really agree with a "city" of 75000 people receiving single-project investments of €500 million or more, whether it be bus, tram or purely general road-user related improvements. Though I think the route that Monument has outlined is a good starting point for future plans to emerge.

Monument wrote:

The route via NUIG etc for Luas would be far less attractive for BRT / buses because of noise

Precisely because of the noise of steel wheels on steel track, some metro systems (I'm thinking of Paris for instance) have moved away from rail to guided rubber tyre based solutions, even with the engineering constraints of heat generation in a tunnel. The traction of a bus needn't come from a typical combustion engine.

pollution

Again, this is a feature of the traction of the bus and proper renewable fuel or electricity use for bus propulsion should compare to or exceed tram usage.

tight fits, and gradients of the bridge

Why is this? Especially with bridge gradients, a suitable tram design for curves of a bridge could be used with buses? Taken at slow speed, Dublin Bus vehicles are normally even able to handle the likes of Mellows Bridge in Dublin city.

Selling demolition for buses would also be a lot harder than the same for LRT.

Very good point. Though I'm looking for more reasons before I'm convinced a Luas-style option would suit better than a properly-designed BRT solution.

Is there anything that can be done with routes towards Salthill? Seems like a fairly densely-populated area will be rather far from the blue route in western Galway, though I know that future potential housing in and around Knocknacarra or western Galway in general should be accounted for in these plans.

Markcheese · 02-06-2015 2:05pm

A proper BRT , can be up to 3 or 4 carraige bendy bus- can be on an exclusive carraigeway - can have proper covered stations- can be a hybrid diesel electric engine- basically can be anything that a tram can be - and look fairly similar- of course the more bells and whistles the more cost - but a brt can be built up more gradually -

Carawaystick · 02-06-2015 3:11pm

porsche959 wrote: »

Buses are noisy

Trams are very noisy too,
http://courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/D39996C550D3179C8025777E004B4607

monument · 02-06-2015 7:01pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Precisely because of the noise of steel wheels on steel track, some metro systems (I'm thinking of Paris for instance) have moved away from rail to guided rubber tyre based solutions, even with the engineering constraints of heat generation in a tunnel.

We're talking about buses vs trams and, in case you're not used to the two, studies have shown trams to be of low noise and/or a less annoying noise.

Example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022460X07009637

lucernarian wrote: »

The traction of a bus needn't come from a typical combustion engine.

Again, this is a feature of the traction of the bus and proper renewable fuel or electricity use for bus propulsion should compare to or exceed tram usage.

Resulting in extra cost and also possible extra reliability issues for buses -- and thus making the case for trams ever better.

lucernarian wrote: »

Why is this? Especially with bridge gradients, a suitable tram design for curves of a bridge could be used with buses? Taken at slow speed, Dublin Bus vehicles are normally even able to handle the likes of Mellows Bridge in Dublin city.

Taken at slow speed -- thus slowing down east-west travel for buses and making the case for trams even stronger.

lucernarian wrote: »

Is there anything that can be done with routes towards Salthill? Seems like a fairly densely-populated area will be rather far from the blue route in western Galway, though I know that future potential housing in and around Knocknacarra or western Galway in general should be accounted for in these plans.

I can't see any route which could serve Salthill and be attractive for east-west non-city centre commutes.

Markcheese wrote: »

A proper BRT , can be up to 3 or 4 carraige bendy bus- can be on an exclusive carraigeway - can have proper covered stations- can be a hybrid diesel electric engine- basically can be anything that a tram can be - and look fairly similar- of course the more bells and whistles the more cost - but a brt can be built up more gradually -

Even if there are no other reasons for picking trams over buses, the political reality is that a dedicated bus route is not going to get even half of the support that Luas would.

The High Court says otherwise:

In summary, I hold that by operating the Green Line at the rear of No. 3 within the noise levels predicted in the EIS, which are conditioned into the Line B Order in the second paragraph of paragraph 28, and, as it happens, by operating within the more rigorous daytime and night-time levels more recently imposed on, and adopted by, the first defendant, the Green Line is being operated without infringing the comfortable and healthy enjoyment of No. 3 that would be expected by an ordinary person whose requirements are objectively reasonable in the particular circumstances which prevail. Therefore, I am satisfied that the plaintiffs have not established nuisance.

.....

35. Decision and order
35.1 As the plaintiffs have not established nuisance at common law their claim must be dismissed. There will be an order to that effect.

scouserstation · 03-06-2015 5:56pm

Also light rail has more segregation potential than BRT in the way it uses less space on busy roads, narrow city streets, can use old railway cuttings, is easier to drive and control as opposed to bendy buses.

strassenwo!f · 04-06-2015 1:54am

This may well be a good idea. But it is still a proposal for a large-scale change in how Galway's transport is run. Infrastucture, perhaps?

Dravokivich · 04-06-2015 2:01pm

I thought Galway suffered a lot from traffic congestion? If this is still the case, I doubt buses are the answer to the transport/commuting issue. You need to show reliability in the service, not just the concept, to get people using public transport.

lucernarian · 04-06-2015 2:42pm

monument wrote: »

We're talking about buses vs trams and, in case you're not used to the two, studies have shown trams to be of low noise and/or a less annoying noise.

Example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022460X07009637

I understood we were talking about trams in general versus buses in general and I accept that the prevailing evidence is that trams are quieter than buses. But I'm specifically referring to a BRT which would utilise electrical power for motion. I've lived in a city with both diesel buses and trolleybuses fed with both overhead gantries and buses which charge supercapacitors at bus stops and the electric-powered buses are far, far quieter than any other mode of transport I've used. I would like to know if that study investigated the use of electric buses or BRT-based transport.

Resulting in extra cost and also possible extra reliability issues for buses -- and thus making the case for trams ever better.

I find that hard to accept, given that many cities in europe and even in Asia have successfully used overhead gantries to power buses for decades. Even stored battery power for vehicles has moved past its infancy and whatever about hybrid buses, I've seen no evidence to see purely electric buses having reliability issues. Regarding cost, I would feel the design and build of a tram chassis and brake controls etc would be higher than an equivalent articulated, electrically powered bus but the truth is I don't have a way to look at comparable systems and make a distinction between costs.

Taken at slow speed -- thus slowing down east-west travel for buses and making the case for trams even stronger.

I don't understand this reference to east-west travel for buses. Mellows bridge is only one example of a humped bridge and I'm not sure why a tram would be able to deal with gradients better. For instance, http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/rolling-friction-resistance-d_1303.html If I understand that correctly, there's greater friction between a truck tyre and asphalt road than there is with steel wheels on a tram track.

I can't see any route which could serve Salthill and be attractive for east-west non-city centre commutes.

I was thinking of the R337, would that still be unfeasible? I notice there's land with no housing estates etc. on it to the north of Galway Golf Club and the south of the western distributor road. Could that be used for a luas alignment coming from the R337?

Even if there are no other reasons for picking trams over buses, the political reality is that a dedicated bus route is not going to get even half of the support that Luas would.

Agreed with that, though I wouldnt' want to see €500 million spent on Galway for *any* transport project - without significant planning changes and development to support a larger, denser population and therefore future investment.

end of the road · 04-06-2015 2:55pm

trams are much more efficient in terms of running, staff requirements, and passenger capacity. a tram can have 2 3 or more carriges if you want and 1 driver to drive that tram, where as to have the same amount of busses you will need at least double the amount of drivers. for mass transet a rail based solution is the way. a BRT even with bendy busses or similar won't be as staff and capacity efficient as a rail based solution. personally if i had my way i would convert our city bus network to tram with busses linking from small areas where tram wouldn't be viable. we must remember in this discussion that
1. we need to encourage future growth of our other cities, that dublin can only grow so much
2. a transport solution for our cities isn't simply for the here and now, it has to be able to deal with future requirements and be ready for those from the get go.

lucernarian · 04-06-2015 4:05pm

end of the road wrote: »

trams are much more efficient in terms of running, staff requirements, and passenger capacity. a tram can have 2 3 or more carriges if you want and 1 driver to drive that tram, where as to have the same amount of busses you will need at least double the amount of drivers. for mass transet a rail based solution is the way. a BRT even with bendy busses or similar won't be as staff and capacity efficient as a rail based solution. personally if i had my way i would convert our city bus network to tram with busses linking from small areas where tram wouldn't be viable. we must remember in this discussion that
1. we need to encourage future growth of our other cities, that dublin can only grow so much
2. a transport solution for our cities isn't simply for the here and now, it has to be able to deal with future requirements and be ready for those from the get go.

1. and 2. require cohesive planning and indeed spatial decisions from local authorities and Govt. That has to allow for major population growth if we are to recoup money from a €500 million scheme. That €500 million might have far greater cost-to-benefit ratios if used for other schemes, like cycling infrastructure nationally or electrification of the Maynooth line in Dublin/Kildare. Dublin's suburbs along the Maynooth and especially the Kildare lines are underutilised with plenty of space for residential and other development. The population of Sallins should be far larger to take advantage of the train station there.

As for Galway, why should it get an investment of an actual LRT for that kind of money when Cork has near enough 3 times the population and would also be a good candidate for spatial focus for industry and increased population. Unlike Galway, Cork City and County Councils haven't made a hames of their general planning strategies and development.

We're not talking about real "mass transit" here, as the examples from Iwannahurl go, it's the lightest of light rail schemes that should be considered - and a city like Galway, with nearby environmental sensitivities and serious constraints on more ambitious infrastructure programs like the proposed bypass, doesn't have as much space or infrastructure to cater for populations unlike say Cork or Limerick.

I agree with those advantages that Light rail has over bus. It's the cost of that in Galway that concerns me. There needs to be actual passengers using these 3 carriages that a tram solution might offer, though I understand that carriages can be initially much shorter to match initial demand. And there are already parts of Ireland where beleagured and loyal public transport users have to put up with chronic lack of investment, low frequency and delays that would be completely rejuvinated with an investment of €500 million, and have the demand to support it right now

stehyl15 · 04-06-2015 4:53pm

I would think intercity rail electrification would be money far better spent

end of the road · 04-06-2015 6:29pm

lucernarian wrote: »

1. and 2. require cohesive planning and indeed spatial decisions from local authorities and Govt. That has to allow for major population growth if we are to recoup money from a €500 million scheme. That €500 million might have far greater cost-to-benefit ratios if used for other schemes, like cycling infrastructure nationally or electrification of the Maynooth line in Dublin/Kildare. Dublin's suburbs along the Maynooth and especially the Kildare lines are underutilised with plenty of space for residential and other development. The population of Sallins should be far larger to take advantage of the train station there.

As for Galway, why should it get an investment of an actual LRT for that kind of money when Cork has near enough 3 times the population and would also be a good candidate for spatial focus for industry and increased population. Unlike Galway, Cork City and County Councils haven't made a hames of their general planning strategies and development.

We're not talking about real "mass transit" here, as the examples from Iwannahurl go, it's the lightest of light rail schemes that should be considered - and a city like Galway, with nearby environmental sensitivities and serious constraints on more ambitious infrastructure programs like the proposed bypass, doesn't have as much space or infrastructure to cater for populations unlike say Cork or Limerick.

I agree with those advantages that Light rail has over bus. It's the cost of that in Galway that concerns me. There needs to be actual passengers using these 3 carriages that a tram solution might offer, though I understand that carriages can be initially much shorter to match initial demand. And there are already parts of Ireland where beleagured and loyal public transport users have to put up with chronic lack of investment, low frequency and delays that would be completely rejuvinated with an investment of €500 million, and have the demand to support it right now

all our cities justify such a scheme as part of encouraging growth. having such light rail systems in place along with other attractions could if done right make them attractive.

monument · 04-06-2015 7:12pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

I would think intercity rail electrification would be money far better spent

lucernarian wrote: »

That €500 million might have far greater cost-to-benefit ratios if used for other schemes, like cycling infrastructure nationally or electrification of the Maynooth line in Dublin/Kildare. Dublin's suburbs along the Maynooth and especially the Kildare lines are underutilised with plenty of space for residential and other development. The population of Sallins should be far larger to take advantage of the train station there.

This discussion is not about funding priorities it's about transport in Galway City. For every person that does not want money spent on Galway, there's four more that will say that money should not be spent on Dublin / intercity rail / whatever.

lucernarian wrote: »

As for Galway, why should it get an investment of an actual LRT for that kind of money when Cork has near enough 3 times the population and would also be a good candidate for spatial focus for industry and increased population. Unlike Galway, Cork City and County Councils haven't made a hames of their general planning strategies and development.

Ok, sure we won't come up with more sustainable solutions for Galway because there's been bad planning in the past... that's great logic.

lucernarian wrote: »

We're not talking about real "mass transit" here, as the examples from Iwannahurl go, it's the lightest of light rail schemes that should be considered - and a city like Galway, with nearby environmental sensitivities and serious constraints on more ambitious infrastructure programs like the proposed bypass, doesn't have as much space or infrastructure to cater for populations unlike say Cork or Limerick.

The space is there for this project, and Galway is going to keep growing if you like it or not. It seems you want it to grow the same way it has being growing -- ie unsustainably.

lucernarian wrote: »

I agree with those advantages that Light rail has over bus. It's the cost of that in Galway that concerns me. There needs to be actual passengers using these 3 carriages that a tram solution might offer, though I understand that carriages can be initially much shorter to match initial demand. And there are already parts of Ireland where beleagured and loyal public transport users have to put up with chronic lack of investment, low frequency and delays that would be completely rejuvinated with an investment of €500 million, and have the demand to support it right now

Right, there's no trip demand in Galway... must be why they are planning the bypass...

markpb · 04-06-2015 8:50pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

I would think intercity rail electrification would be money far better spent

Why?

end of the road · 04-06-2015 9:42pm

markpb wrote: »

Why?

if for example the cork line was electrified, its stock could allow an hourly belfast service and IE would have no excuse not to have enough carriges on all the other diesel services. of course thats in an ideal world. in the real world however. anyway thats for another thread

Carawaystick · 05-06-2015 12:36am

end of the road wrote: »

if for example the cork line was electrified, its stock could allow an hourly belfast service and IE would have no excuse not to have enough carriges on all the other diesel services. of course thats in an ideal world. in the real world however. anyway thats for another thread

This post makes no sense.
If the line to Cork (from Dublin) was electrified, how exactly would this enable an hourly service to Belfast?

How would it improve service to people getting about in Galway city?

lucernarian · 05-06-2015 1:56am

monument wrote: »

This discussion is not about funding priorities it's about transport in Galway City. For every person that does not want money spent on Galway, there's four more that will say that money should not be spent on Dublin / intercity rail / whatever.

Really? Where are these surveys you've taken? And why would it be expressed like that? I'd be shocked to see a national survey where 4 times as many peope voted for a €500 million investment in Galway than a €500 million investment in an equivalent project in Dublin.

Ok, sure we won't come up with more sustainable solutions for Galway because there's been bad planning in the past... that's great logic.

That's a spurious, straw man argument. I asked a legitimate question and it's been completely sidestepped.

The space is there for this project, and Galway is going to keep growing if you like it or not. It seems you want it to grow the same way it has being growing -- ie unsustainably.

Could you show some evidence of that claim? Or is it another straw man? I perceive the price tag as being the most serious issue facing any project like this or the GCOB.

Right, there's no trip demand in Galway... must be why they are planning the bypass...

Another straightforward straw man. Where have I said or implied that there is no trip demand? Also, to my mind the main argument in favour of a bypass is owing to the existing confines of road infrastructure near or through an urban core and this offers no truly safe or noise-free solution for those who have lived in the vicinity of the existing QCB route. From things like trucks and the traffic not making journies originating in Galway and otherwise using parts or all of the existing QCB route.

Could you please direct your comments towards what I've written? I do fundamentally approve of a light rail system if it could be made economic within Galway city - not at any cost, in other words.

Luas for Galway

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