Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/
White Male Privilege
Comments
-
-
-
Except that to tackle discrimination people need perspective and people who are born into privilege don't have it (as much as others). Especially people who think that young kids live in a society without context-- now that's a bizarre and meaningless concept.
See here's what I'm just not getting - you use the expression "born into privilege", like anyone has any choice in the circumstances in which they are born into, or that somehow they "don't realise how lucky they are". That really isn't luck, it's happenstance. The people who are as you say "born into privilege", you say they don't have perspective. I say they do; it's just that their perspective differs from yours.
So what's this idea of privilege got to do with anything - that people should feel like they won the biological lottery or something? You try telling a lottery winner that they should feel guilty for winning the lotto and that they should share their winnings with everyone else who didn't win, in the interests of fairness and equality of course. Unless your lottery winner is a complete fruit loop, you're not likely to see a cent. That's where the idea of appealing to people's better nature is great in theory, but in reality, there aren't enough fruit loops willing to give up what they have in order for society to be fair and equal.
Bemoan the lack of altruism in other people all you want, but unless you're actually willing to become one of the more philanthropic fruit loops yourself, your cries of discrimination are going to fall on deaf ears.And I'm certainly not advocating being spoon-fed opportunities. I am no proponent of things like quotas or even something like maternity leave, but not because I feel it's discrimination against men, but because I feel it's discrimination against business owners.
"Corporate discrimination"? I'm just trying to get my head around some of the stuff you're putting forward here, because in the first part you're talking about social change, and then you're dipping into something I've never ever heard of in my life - discrimination against business owners?
Business owners could be anybody, which means that anybody then as a business owner could be discriminated against, not for any particular reason, but because of your interpretation of the legislation and laws under which they have to operate. That's not discrimination?
When we talk of discrimination, it's usually in the broader social context, and that's what I understood was meant by "privilege" - is that people by virtue of traits such as their race, gender, sexual orientation or physical ability were privileged, because they are in a majority, and they take those traits about themselves for granted.
What you seem to want to do (and please, correct me if I'm wrong), is that you want to point fingers at other people who you see as privileged, and say that because they are so privileged, they don't see how you're a victim of their privilege, ergo you're being tacitly discriminated against by people who aren't even aware that they are discriminating against you?
I'm still not seeing how that's actually helpful to you to point that out, because you're simply pointing it out, but you expect other people should have to do something about it. I'm just not sure what you would like to be done about it though seeing as you aren't in favour of misguided measures to address what seems to be your issue?
I'm not in favour of gender quotas or any of that nonsense either by the way, for the simple reason that people should earn privilege based upon merit. At least that's the way I always understood the meaning of the word privilege - a reward based upon a merit system. Now you're telling me I'm already automatically privileged and should count myself lucky!
I'm supposed to feel guilty or responsible for something I had no hand in?I am simply tired of this new crop of men who think that because women have more opportunities then they've ever had that that means they, as men, have less, or that they still aren't born into privilege. For instance, it is my belief that the US is at an all-time low both economically and politically, but I would be an absolute brat not to admit that I still live a life of privilege.
I'm tired of those sort of whiney fcukers too tbh. I'm also tired of people telling me I should feel lucky for who I am. I wasn't aware you live in the US, but that explains why you're more exposed to people telling you that you should feel lucky for who you are.
There definitely does seem to be a shift in attitudes in the US from the land of opportunity and positivity, to the land of martyrs who whinge about the unfairness of it all. They are the very representative definition of "first world problems", looking for a perspective in which they can call themselves victims, and either revel in their victimhood, or revel in their guilt complexes because they're exposing themselves to it voluntarily, craving that perspective you talk about.
What have you actually got to feel guilty about? I don't think you're a brat at all if you wanted to keep your guilt to yourself. In fact I'd prefer it that way so I wouldn't have to listen to it. Admitting to something you aren't responsible for isn't going to change anything? I'd sooner you actually did something to address the discrimination you witness, and then if you failed, your guilt might be understandable, but I'm not going to see you punished for trying. Simply paying lip service though, and pointing fingers, that's when I'm going to say "Ok you can stop right there".And to be fair to men, this new crop I speak of is not something I've encountered in real life, except for one man-- it really seems to be a breed found solely on the internet.
Why stop now when you're on a roll? :P
Seriously though, yes, I know what you're saying, and I get where you're coming from, but let's be thankful for small mercies at least that they do indeed only inhabit the internet (and that would be both women and men - Laci Green, a feminist because male circumcision? Stop it ffs! :pac: ) and are unlikely ever to effect social change in any real and meaningful way. I can at least happily say I've at least rarely encountered such men, but that probably has something to do with the fact that my work colleagues are women, most of my friends are women, most of the people I talk to in business are women... you get the idea
Basically I don't tend to involve myself with people who complain a lot, and many men I've met, they'd wear the ears off a small elephant if given half the chance. Your perspective naturally differs from mine.Most men are reasonable enough to admit that despite all the laws written to give women a helping hand, they still have it easier than women and they're very happy with their lot in life.
I'm not quite sure how to put this but.... you lack perspective. That's putting it politely. Would I say you were privileged to lack such perspective? No, because that would be silly. I would hate for anyone to feel they had to torture themselves like that :pac:
I'm perfectly happy to admit that yes, my life is peachy, and there's often times I'd hate to be a woman, but for a whole host of reasons, and not simply because of their sex.
I couldn't identify with Patrick's post at all tbh, but I struggled to relate to yours too, because it hasn't been my experience of the women in my life. The vast majority of women in my life seem like reasonable women who are happy with their lives too.
Anyone who isn't happy with their life, I try to help them create opportunities for themselves to become happy, as long as I consider their expectations to be reasonable. I'm not a fruit loopy philanthropist with an overbearing guilt/martyr complex, but I do what I can to help other people, regardless of their gender.They like the things their bodies can do for them when it comes to strength, they like the fact that they can earn their attractiveness, and they love the fact that they can pick a partner and start a family from the ages of 17-70.
Trust me, the fact that a man can attract women from the ages of 17 - 70, ain't all it's cracked up to be! :pac:
(Prostitution is legal in this country alright, but under current legislation the activities associated with it are illegal, for both women and men... there's a perspective I think you're missing, that's all I'm saying on that one
)
Seriously though, you make it sound like anyone has any control over how attractive they are to other people. I'm often left perplexed by how attractive I am to other people, and yet it's there. I didn't ask for it, I certainly didn't earn it, and yet they somehow see something in me that for the life of me I cannot comprehend. If that's privilege, then I still don't see how you should expect me to be able to rectify discrimination I just can't see?
I did approach a girl in a nightclub once to ask her would she do me a favour and go over and talk to my friend at the time who had just been dumped by his girlfriend so he wasn't feeling too great about himself. He was delighted of course when she approached him and they hit it off. A week later he dumped her and I decided I wasn't ever going to put myself in that situation again! :rolleyes:I can't tell you how many times I've heard men say "Men age better than women", and whether or not that's true, this is exactly the privilege men grow up with.
Of course, and I imagine that's as tiresome for you as the amount of times I've heard from my female friends that "all men are bastards", certainly raises an eyebrow when they're looking me straight in the face while they're saying it, but usually a raised eyebrow is enough to remind them that we're not all bastards :pac:But like I mentioned before, this is the internet, and this is a site consisting mostly of men, and most of them really don't like people poking holes in their very weak arguments, particularly when it comes to male/female dynamics.
Well, I would think there's quite a good many people, regardless of their gender, don't like to be told they lack perspective. I mean, as weak and all as it was, you almost practically dismissed Patrick's post out of hand, dismissing the issues he raised, and then went about putting forth your own issues again. You didn't just poke holes in a weak argument, you barely even acknowledged that he had an argument.
You want people to understand privilege from a female perspective, and yet you aren't willing even to entertain privilege from a male perspective. Regardless of the demographics here, I'm not sure you were ever going to make much headway if you're failing to see other people's issues from their perspective while you try to get across this idea of what you call their privilege. That's the sort of pointy fingered expectations that they should come down to your level and listen to you, but you're not willing to listen to them.
That's why I said this idea of privilege is a bizarre concept that seems to me at least like a token effort to say you're taking responsibility for something, but you never actually really have to engage in doing anything about it. The world isn't going to change because you're able to point out all the problems you have with it. If you want people's help to change it, then you have to actually be seen to be making an effort first, because that would be taking responsibility for something, as opposed to sitting in front of a webcam and whining about the unfairness of it all.0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
So what?
Is attraction a choice? If men are attracted to a certain "look" is that because they choose to find that attractive or are they compelled by genetics(?) to be attracted to that particular look?
Oh it absolutely is.If a heterosexual female decides to stick to a strict healthy diet while also working out at the gym 5 times a week then she can pretty much choose whichever partner she wants from the available males.
Bullsh*t of the highest order. And you're pretty much proving my point even more that men place an enormous emphasis on looks.Would we say that this is down to human nature rather than human society? I am pretty sure that, given the choice, I'd rather have a healthy partner. Good hair, good skin, good body and such are indicators of health and so have to be factored in to attractiveness, right?
I find that I am unable to change the kind of things that I am attracted to. Is it so bad then that I place an emphasis on looks?
You want a list of female privileges but surely you must understand that what one person sees as a privilege others might see as a burden.
Could we look at how much money men earn compared to woman and call it "male privilege" because men earn more on average? Could look at how many men die in work related accidents and call that "female privilege" because women don't die at work so often? I don't think so. The wives and daughters of the man who earns more are benefiting from that situation. The wives and daughters of the man who dies at work are suffering in that situation.
One gender does not necessarily have things "better" than the other.
Sure, we can simplify reality to paint a picture that shows one side coming out on top. People frequently employ statistics and anecdotes to achieve the desired effect "see how Group X is oppressed by Group Y". The truth is always a lot more complicated than that. "White Male Privilege" is a snappy one liner that paints a particular picture. Attach a few statistics and a couple of "my male colleague earns twice as much as me so..." anecdotes and you've got yourself an idea of reality that seems pretty convincing.
In some of your posts you seem to be denying, or ignoring, the nature of reality because it doesn't fit in with your idea of what reality should be like. You need to look deeper than just asking for "a list of female privileges" and ,when nobody gives you that list, thinking that you've proved that men have it better than women.
Life pretty much sucks for everyone.
Or perhaps you need to look a little deeper at Hatrick's post. He denied that there was such a thing as male privilege and I pointed out that there absolutely is such a thing as male privilege and that men are born with that privilege.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
-
One eyed Jack wrote: »See here's what I'm just not getting - you use the expression "born into privilege", like anyone has any choice in the circumstances in which they are born into, or that somehow they "don't realise how lucky they are". That really isn't luck, it's happenstance. The people who are as you say "born into privilege", you say they don't have perspective. I say they do; it's just that their perspective differs from yours.
So what's this idea of privilege got to do with anything - that people should feel like they won the biological lottery or something? You try telling a lottery winner that they should feel guilty for winning the lotto and that they should share their winnings with everyone else who didn't win, in the interests of fairness and equality of course. Unless your lottery winner is a complete fruit loop, you're not likely to see a cent. That's where the idea of appealing to people's better nature is great in theory, but in reality, there aren't enough fruit loops willing to give up what they have in order for society to be fair and equal.
Bemoan the lack of altruism in other people all you want, but unless you're actually willing to become one of the more philanthropic fruit loops yourself, your cries of discrimination are going to fall on deaf ears.
Hold on there cowboy. Where did I say I was interested in fairness and equality? I don't believe in fairness and I certainly won't fight for it. Hatrickpatrick said that boys grow up in a country where male privilege doesn't exist. And that is untrue. And I was giving an argument as to why.One eyed Jack wrote: »"Corporate discrimination"? I'm just trying to get my head around some of the stuff you're putting forward here, because in the first part you're talking about social change, and then you're dipping into something I've never ever heard of in my life - discrimination against business owners?
Business owners could be anybody, which means that anybody then as a business owner could be discriminated against, not for any particular reason, but because of your interpretation of the legislation and laws under which they have to operate. That's not discrimination?
When we talk of discrimination, it's usually in the broader social context, and that's what I understood was meant by "privilege" - is that people by virtue of traits such as their race, gender, sexual orientation or physical ability were privileged, because they are in a majority, and they take those traits about themselves for granted.
I think it's grossly unfair to expect business owners to provide leave to new mothers. That's what I'm saying.One eyed Jack wrote: »What you seem to want to do (and please, correct me if I'm wrong), is that you want to point fingers at other people who you see as privileged, and say that because they are so privileged, they don't see how you're a victim of their privilege, ergo you're being tacitly discriminated against by people who aren't even aware that they are discriminating against you?
You're wrong. And I can't even begin to counter my way through that muddle of a mess you call an argument.One eyed Jack wrote: »I'm still not seeing how that's actually helpful to you to point that out, because you're simply pointing it out, but you expect other people should have to do something about it. I'm just not sure what you would like to be done about it though seeing as you aren't in favour of misguided measures to address what seems to be your issue?
Where did I even begin to insinuate that something should be done about it? Or at the very least, legally. I don't believe women's issues, are, in fact, an issue any more. And they haven't been for a very long time.One eyed Jack wrote: »I'm not in favour of gender quotas or any of that nonsense either by the way, for the simple reason that people should earn privilege based upon merit. At least that's the way I always understood the meaning of the word privilege - a reward based upon a merit system. Now you're telling me I'm already automatically privileged and should count myself lucky!
That's not the meaning of privilege. And if you are a man born in Ireland, and to a lesser extent, a woman, you are privileged. And you should count yourself lucky.One eyed Jack wrote: »I'm supposed to feel guilty or responsible for something I had no hand in?
Nope.One eyed Jack wrote: »What have you actually got to feel guilty about? I don't think you're a brat at all if you wanted to keep your guilt to yourself. In fact I'd prefer it that way so I wouldn't have to listen to it. Admitting to something you aren't responsible for isn't going to change anything? I'd sooner you actually did something to address the discrimination you witness, and then if you failed, your guilt might be understandable, but I'm not going to see you punished for trying. Simply paying lip service though, and pointing fingers, that's when I'm going to say "Ok you can stop right there".
I don't feel guilty, I feel grateful. I'm wondering where you're getting these words from. Are you just making them up? Cause I sure as sh*t didn't say them.One eyed Jack wrote: »I'm not quite sure how to put this but.... you lack perspective. That's putting it politely. Would I say you were privileged to lack such perspective? No, because that would be silly. I would hate for anyone to feel they had to torture themselves like that :pac:
Judging from this post and other posts you've written, I would say that coming from you I take that as a compliment.One eyed Jack wrote: »I couldn't identify with Patrick's post at all tbh, but I struggled to relate to yours too, because it hasn't been my experience of the women in my life. The vast majority of women in my life seem like reasonable women who are happy with their lives too.
Despite the fact that women suffer from higher rates of depression than men, depression as a whole is still a minority, so yes, I think they are too.One eyed Jack wrote: »Anyone who isn't happy with their life, I try to help them create opportunities for themselves to become happy, as long as I consider their expectations to be reasonable. I'm not a fruit loopy philanthropist with an overbearing guilt/martyr complex, but I do what I can to help other people, regardless of their gender.
You wouldn't happen to be selling a self-help book on late night tv, would you? Maybe something along the lines of Grab Life by the Horns or You, too, Can Exercise Your Way Out of Debt!.One eyed Jack wrote: »(Prostitution is legal in this country alright, but under current legislation the activities associated with it are illegal, for both women and men... there's a perspective I think you're missing, that's all I'm saying on that one )
Okay, I didn't say prostitution was legal in Ireland, in fact I didn't even know that it was. I was simply mentioning that prostitution became legalized in some countries at the height of this so-called "misandry", thereby countering Patrick's post that male sexuality is demonized. It's not. It's not even close.One eyed Jack wrote: »Seriously though, you make it sound like anyone has any control over how attractive they are to other people. I'm often left perplexed by how attractive I am to other people, and yet it's there. I didn't ask for it, I certainly didn't earn it, and yet they somehow see something in me that for the life of me I cannot comprehend. If that's privilege, then I still don't see how you should expect me to be able to rectify discrimination I just can't see?
Not anyone, but mostly just men.One eyed Jack wrote: »Of course, and I imagine that's as tiresome for you as the amount of times I've heard from my female friends that "all men are bastards", certainly raises an eyebrow when they're looking me straight in the face while they're saying it, but usually a raised eyebrow is enough to remind them that we're not all bastards :pac:
Once again, you're not getting the point I'm trying to make. Men grow up with the privilege that they age better than women, and even if they didn't, it doesn't really matter.One eyed Jack wrote: »Well, I would think there's quite a good many people, regardless of their gender, don't like to be told they lack perspective. I mean, as weak and all as it was, you almost practically dismissed Patrick's post out of hand, dismissing the issues he raised, and then went about putting forth your own issues again. You didn't just poke holes in a weak argument, you barely even acknowledged that he had an argument.
His whole argument was based on his assertion that male privilege doesn't exist. It absolutely does.One eyed Jack wrote: »You want people to understand privilege from a female perspective, and yet you aren't willing even to entertain privilege from a male perspective. Regardless of the demographics here, I'm not sure you were ever going to make much headway if you're failing to see other people's issues from their perspective while you try to get across this idea of what you call their privilege. That's the sort of pointy fingered expectations that they should come down to your level and listen to you, but you're not willing to listen to them.
That's why I said this idea of privilege is a bizarre concept that seems to me at least like a token effort to say you're taking responsibility for something, but you never actually really have to engage in doing anything about it. The world isn't going to change because you're able to point out all the problems you have with it. If you want people's help to change it, then you have to actually be seen to be making an effort first, because that would be taking responsibility for something, as opposed to sitting in front of a webcam and whining about the unfairness of it all.
How much does your book cost?0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement