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Communion season in full flow...parents question

1246

Comments

  • #92
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Aren't Irish schools also Catholic?
    If you mean Gaelscoileanna, some are but those under the Foras Patrúnachta (most of the newer ones) aren't.


  • #93
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    Eutow wrote: »
    Strawman argument. I have no problem with religious people. As long as I'm not forced to believe in their beliefs we will have no problem. You are the one that brought up assets. How did they get these assets (land, schools) in the first place? Why does a religious organisation need these assets? Why are taxpayers funding a religious organisation when they may not belive in it? Why should they be able to hold 90% of schools in a supposed republic?

    You not forced to believe in their beliefs or use their schools, they got assets for donations over the years and used them to setup a public service for free to educate the youth of ireland. If the goverment setup new schools now the 90% being their would drop.

    Ask the government to setup new state schools.


  • #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    This is why people need to get together and start new schools, just as has happened with Gaelscoileanna. Wringing hands saying "no local school" and then doing nothing about it will self-perpetuate otherwise.

    The state pays for schools and the state sanctions the opening of new schools. In an area where there are already numerous schools and places why would the state then sanction a new school?


  • #95
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    The state pays for schools and the state sanctions the opening of new schools. In an area where there are already numerous schools and places why would the state then sanction a new school?
    Worked for Gaelscoileanna, where it was proven there was demand. Mind you, most Gaelscoileanna spent years in substandard accommodation and some still are.


  • #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    What about the right of a child not to be discriminated against over race or religion?


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  • #97
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    What about the right of a child not to be discriminated against over race or religion?

    Send them to a non religous school


  • #98
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    The original National Schools Act of 1831 established schools as non-denom. Religion was only to be taught for 30 mins a day and this was during the hour long lunch period. Teachers were , in effect giving up half an hour of their lunch to do this and children not participating went home for their lunch.


  • #99
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Worked for Gaelscoileanna, where it was proven there was demand. Mind you, most Gaelscoileanna spent years in substandard accommodation and some still are.

    To be quite honest that is nonsense. Nearly 90% of schools in this country are Catholic so for the vast majority of people there is no other option than to send their child to the state funded school. Which happens to be run by a catholic patron.


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gravehold wrote: »
    Send them to a non religous school

    So the state should continue to sanction discrimination based on religion in regards to school places in direct opposition to EU directives on the matter?


  • #101
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    To be quite honest that is nonsense. Nearly 90% of schools in this country are Catholic so for the vast majority of people there is no other option than to send their child to the state funded school. Which happens to be run by a catholic patron.
    Why is it nonsense? Demand was proven, schools were established, simple as. Or do you expect the DEs to just build schools at random?


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  • #102
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    gravehold wrote: »
    Send them to a non religous school

    Do you support other forms of segregation?


  • #103
    Zamboni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,292 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    The state is the problem.

    Currently, state funded schools in Ireland are allowed to positively discriminate in favour of students within a religious denomination in order to maintain a schools "ethos".

    This is provided for, ironically, in the Equal Status Act 2000.

    In practice what this means is that over 86% of Irish schools can place your child bottom of the enrolment list if they have not been baptised.

    Parents and children in Ireland are being forced to "fake" Catholicism to gain access to the education system they have paid for through their taxes.

    By default, the Irish state is forcing religious conversion of children in order to access education.

    Nothing short of the complete removal Section 7.3(c) of the Equal Status Act 2000 will fix this this.

    Citizens need to act against this. Make yourself heard to every politician in your constituency.


  • #104
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR-%202013-%2004-%2002.html

    Interesting reading on patronage.

    "Almost two thirds of the areas surveyed as part of this process, including the pilot phase, have shown sufficient parental demand for a wider choice of school patron. We cannot ignore this call for change"

    So where a demand was shown, action is possible.


  • #105
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Why is it nonsense? Demand was proven, schools were established, simple as. Or do you expect the DEs to just build schools at random?

    There is no et school in my area. My child has been born. What is it you suggest I do to ensure that a non denominational school is built so my child may attend before his sixth birthday?

    How do I and my child who has a right to an education a right not to be discriminated against do to ensure this school is built in my area.


  • #106
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    It's because Catholics like pageantry. Look at JFK...only Catholic president and they nicknamed it Camelot.

    Look at all the display teh Spanish do.

    Protestants aren't like that.
    See also:

    - The Mob
    - Our nomadic brethren
    - The Vatican - blingtastic


  • #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR-%202013-%2004-%2002.html

    Interesting reading on patronage.

    "Almost two thirds of the areas surveyed as part of this process, including the pilot phase, have shown sufficient parental demand for a wider choice of school patron. We cannot ignore this call for change"

    So where a demand was shown, action is possible.

    That was taken from the school patronage report of 2012 I take it. So the state commissioned a report which found demand as you outlined and what exactly has it done to ensure all it's citizens have equal access to schools of their choosing?


  • #108
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Zamboni wrote: »
    The state is the problem.

    In practice what this means is that over 86% of Irish schools can place your child bottom of the enrolment list if they have not been baptised.
    To be fair, outside of the cities, this doesn't happen much and many city schools do actually accept children of all faiths and none.

    Personally, it would be interesting to see how many parents would make the effort to get their children to religion classes outside of school hours. I wonder if people had to make a faith commitment on their own time and actually proactively do something, what percentage of children would be involved in sacraments as a result?


  • #109
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    That was taken from the school patronage report of 2012 I take it. So the state commissioned a report which found demand as you outlined and what exactly has it done to ensure all it's citizens have equal access to schools of their choosing?
    About as much has been done to ensure all children with SEN get the supports they really need, but it is a start.

    The DES is a slow moving machine. REALLLLLLY slow.

    People need to make their voices heard and their preferences answered. Sending a child to a religious school of any sort isn't making voices heard.
    Not lobbying for a different model of school isn't helping.

    It worth pointing out that all primary schools in Ireland -multi-denoms included must teach religion as things stand.


  • #110
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Your child would probably benefit more from this communion...... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Communion_book_cover.jpg


  • #111
    Zamboni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,292 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    To be fair, outside of the cities, this doesn't happen much and many city schools do actually accept children of all faiths and none.

    Discrimination doesn't become ok because, "it doesn't happen much".

    Section 7.3(c) of the Equal Status Act 2000 allows for discrimination. Period.
    This is wrong and should be changed regardless of its frequency.


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  • #112
    Zamboni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,292 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    It worth pointing out that all primary schools in Ireland -multi-denoms included must teach religion as things stand.

    There is nothing wrong with teaching about religions.

    Teaching that one is the true one is the problem.


  • #113
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    The original National Schools Act of 1831 established schools as non-denom. Religion was only to be taught for 30 mins a day and this was during the hour long lunch period. Teachers were , in effect giving up half an hour of their lunch to do this and children not participating went home for their lunch.

    But that was 1831, before the whole Catholic revolution....war of independence...wrapping up inependence into the religion so the power vacuum created could be replaced by a new theocracy.

    I don't know why you are talking about 1831.....completely different government, different state entirely.


  • #114
    Zamboni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,292 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    How do I and my child who has a right to an education a right not to be discriminated against do to ensure this school is built in my area.

    I recently spoke to an Asian family who have been working here ten years.
    They were told their son would not get in to the local school without a baptism cert, so they are now approaching churches to get the child baptised despite having no interest in any faith. His words were "I have no other choice for my son".
    Heartbreaking stuff :(


  • #115
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    About as much has been done to ensure all children with SEN get the supports they really need, but it is a start.

    The DES is a slow moving machine. REALLLLLLY slow.

    People need to make their voices heard and their preferences answered. Sending a child to a religious school of any sort isn't making voices heard.
    Not lobbying for a different model of school isn't helping.

    It worth pointing out that all primary schools in Ireland -multi-denoms included must teach religion as things stand.

    Well it is illegal not to send your child to school and while schools get to choose their own admissions policy it is a bit of a rock and hard place.


  • #116
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    Zamboni wrote: »
    I recently spoke to an Asian family who have been working here ten years.
    They were told their son would not get in to the local school without a baptism cert, so they are now approaching churches to get the child baptised despite having no interest in any faith. His words were "I have no other choice for my son".
    Heartbreaking stuff :(

    Home school, move area


  • #117
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    gravehold wrote: »
    Home school, move area

    Move area to be sure.
    It worked for the peado priests......


  • #118
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    The state pays for schools and the state sanctions the opening of new schools. In an area where there are already numerous schools and places why would the state then sanction a new school?

    There is an opportunity here to do this because so many smaller schools closed down and now class sizes are big.

    Plus the baby booms of the 2000s are now in school, combine that with the recession making people not be able to afford private schools, the regular schools are bursting at the seams.


  • #119
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    The 'old' church would have read these kids and parents from the pulpit for their attitude to communion. i.e. fundraising, one upmanship and fashion show. The current church has gone populist to save whatever members they have left.


  • #120
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    But that was 1831, before the whole Catholic revolution....war of independence...wrapping up inependence into the religion so the power vacuum created could be replaced by a new theocracy.

    I don't know why you are talking about 1831.....completely different government, different state entirely.
    Because the original intention was a non-denom system-that got hijacked.


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  • #121
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gravehold wrote: »
    Home school, move area

    What a childish stupid response. For the vast majority of people neither of these options are possible.


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