Off Topic Thread too point uh

dregin · 06-05-2015 08:27AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No they don't?

I pay council tax to the council.
I pay Severn Trent Water for the water I use.
I also pay Severn Trent Water for the water that I dispose of.

I sit corrected. Is it the same across the UK?

By waste disposal, I meant bins.

06-05-2015 08:35AM

dregin wrote: »

I sit corrected. Is it the same across the UK?

By waste disposal, I meant bins.

Ah! Yes the council does provide the bin service. However my council tax is £170 pm. Fair bit more expensive than the bin services at home I'd reckon! (I also live in the 2nd cheapest council tax area in the UK)

All water provision in England and Wales is privatised. Scotland & NI have Scottish Water* & Northern Ireland Water (public).

In England and Wales water and sewerage services are provided by 10 private regional water and sewerage companies and 13 mostly smaller private "water only" companies. In Scotland water and sewerage services are provided by a single public company, Scottish Water. In Northern Ireland water and sewerage services are also provided by a single public entity, Northern Ireland Water.

Scottish Water looks like the bill comes through alongside the Council Tax

RuggieBear · 06-05-2015 08:39AM

My council tax is something like 1300 quid a year, water and waste water is 650.

Potable Water is expensive to produce...it needs massive investment in massive disparate infrastructure. Lots of money is needed but the way Irish water has come into being is a ****ing shambles and if politicians and the various civil servants had any shame they would all resign from embarrassment.

molloyjh · 06-05-2015 09:13AM

RuggieBear wrote: »

My council tax is something like 1300 quid a year, water and waste water is 650.

Potable Water is expensive to produce...it needs massive investment in massive disparate infrastructure. Lots of money is needed but the way Irish water has come into being is a ****ing shambles and if politicians and the various civil servants had any shame they would all resign from embarrassment.

It's the same as a lot of things in this country. The general idea is a good one but the implementation of said idea is appalling. Sadly we have the likes of the Shinners and various other groups trying to whip up the population into a frenzy over what is essentially a good idea when we should all be far more focused on the implementation.

Irish Water Will Be Free is quite possibly the biggest joke of a catchphrase I've ever seen.

thomond2006 · 06-05-2015 09:22AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Irish Water Will Be Free is quite possibly the biggest joke of a catchphrase I've ever seen.

Perhaps they have an idea to gather, pipe, filter water as well as provide ongoing system maintenance for free? :pac:

molloyjh · 06-05-2015 09:51AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Perhaps they have an idea to gather, pipe, filter water as well as provide ongoing system maintenance for free? :pac:

Sure doesn't the rain come from the clouds for free. Sure that's all we need. The rest is just an austerity scam by the elite to screw the poor proletariat.

Teferi · 06-05-2015 10:15AM

I don't mind paying for water but the implementation has left a lot to be desired. I wouldn't agree with them anyway but the protestors have gone madly overboard.

It's all academic for me anyway, recently moved to London and I'll be paying for it all. One thing Ireland does better than London is waste collection. Very old school here, you just bung your bins outside the night before your collection and it gets picked up. Of course, the foxes have an absolute feast that night so there is very often rubbish all over the road the next day. I prefer the wheelie bin method.

OldRio · 06-05-2015 10:31AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Perhaps they have an idea to gather, pipe, filter water as well as provide ongoing system maintenance for free? :pac:

i do believe our taxes paid for that in the past. Or did we get it for free before.

stephen_n · 06-05-2015 10:47AM

Taxes never really go away, the USC will remain as will the percentage of VAT and VRT that is currently taken to fund local authorities, on top of bin charges, property tax and water charges. Since we created IW so we could keep the borrowing off the books, to fix the water system that the €250-€350 million a year from VAT & VRT since 1999 hasn't been used to fix and €350 million a year from VAT & VRT won't be enough to fix going forward, we will end up paying a water charge that doesn't even discourage water use, while keeping the staff of 32 local authorities for a guaranteed 12 year period, creating 100's of new jobs to do the same work, paying failed public servants millions a year to follow up on there record of wasting hundreds of millions of public money and making corrupt billionaires richer in the process but I can see no reasonable argument against IW.

06-05-2015 10:54AM

OldRio wrote: »

i do believe our taxes paid for that in the past. Or did we get it for free before.

ireland-government-budget-value.png?s=irelandgovbudval&d1=19960101&d2=20151231

The state has been paying on the credit card for some time. So clearly our taxes didn't quite cover it.

Secondly, what they did cover was evidentially not enough. See boil notices, leaks etc. There's major infrastructural changes required that cannot be done for free.

Thirdly, I'm still completely confused as to the idea that there is sense in general taxation paying (a theoretically unbounded - and realistically monotonically increasing) charge for a utility?

OldRio · 06-05-2015 10:56AM

So the governments didn't do their job correctly?

06-05-2015 11:01AM

OldRio wrote: »

So the governments didn't do their job correctly?

It's a simple constrained budget issue.

If you have 4 coins, and 7 items need spending on them, you have to prioritise some at the cost of others. For many years, we voted for Governments that prioritised other issues.

If they'd undertaken large water infrastructure projects at the cost of the road infrastructure we'd have had significant issues.

If they'd chosen to cut social welfare and used that money to repair and replace much of the water provision system, we'd have had significant issues.

If they'd raised income taxes and increased the tax net in order to raise additional monies, that money would also be part of the 'priorities' queue.

We never voted for parties that said that they'd do this. However, FG were elected with a mandate to introduce water charges.

OldRio · 06-05-2015 11:12AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a simple constrained budget issue.

If you have 4 coins, and 7 items need spending on them, you have to prioritise some at the cost of others. For many years, we voted for Governments that prioritised other issues.

If they'd undertaken large water infrastructure projects at the cost of the road infrastructure we'd have had significant issues.

If they'd chosen to cut social welfare and used that money to repair and replace much of the water provision system, we'd have had significant issues.

If they'd raised income taxes and increased the tax net in order to raise additional monies, that money would also be part of the 'priorities' queue.

We never voted for parties that said that they'd do this. However, FG were elected with a mandate to introduce water charges.

So instead of sorting the budget out correctly. The government decides to farm out its responsibilities to IW. Which in turn demands money from us. Tax under a different name.

06-05-2015 11:15AM

OldRio wrote: »

So instead of sorting the budget out correctly. The government decides to farm out its responsibilities to IW. Which in turn demands money from us. Tax under a different name.

Do you consider the money you pay to the ESB a tax?

Synode · 06-05-2015 11:16AM

OldRio wrote: »

So instead of sorting the budget out correctly. The government decides to farm out its responsibilities to IW. Which in turn demands money from us. Tax under a different name.

It's a utility. Similar to electricity and heat. I can see why people want to call it a tax, but at the end of the day it's not

stephen_n · 06-05-2015 11:28AM

Water charges aren't really the issue though, Irish Water, it's creation and (mis)management, it's relationship with Dennis O'brien, future sale into private ownership including separation from any debts incurred fixing the grossly mismanaged infrastructure and the idea of it becoming a for profit service are the issues the vast majority of people object to.

molloyjh · 06-05-2015 11:31AM

OldRio wrote: »

So instead of sorting the budget out correctly. The government decides to farm out its responsibilities to IW. Which in turn demands money from us. Tax under a different name.

Water has to be paid for somehow. One thing people regularly neglect to mention was that income tax was reduced in the same budget that covered the introduction of IW. FG in their election manifesto clearly stated they were bringing in water charges to replace the use of taxation to pay for water.

Another thing that's often not mentioned is that the ability to invest in the water infrastructure is tied to 2 things when it is paid for through tax. The first is, as emmet pointed out, the political will/public demand to invest. The second is the level of tax take. When times are good we have more money to invest. When times are bad, like they were very recently, we've little to no money to invest. Tying the fortunes of a basic, fundamental utility to these 2 factors is incredibly dangerous. As we are learning now that the state of the infrastructure is becoming clear. Making them independent of them is the only reasonable and rational approach. And that doesn't even cover the massive inefficiencies in the leaving the management in the hands of different councils the way we had done.

Now the way in which it was implemented, including how IW was set-up, is a different matter.

awec · 06-05-2015 11:53AM

Lads we're edging toward a discussion that is political and this thread is not the place for it.

irishbucsfan · 06-05-2015 12:00PM

How about them american footballs?

Pudsy33 · 06-05-2015 12:05PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How about them american footballs?

It doesn't start for months :mad:

06-05-2015 12:10PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How about them american footballs?

Softies in padding :P

thomond2006 · 06-05-2015 12:12PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How about them american footballs?

Whatever happened to Deflategate? Have they quietly forgotten about it?

OldRio · 06-05-2015 12:27PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you consider the money you pay to the ESB a tax?

feck it. Edited.

OldRio · 06-05-2015 12:32PM

Soooooooo.

Wet isn't it?
Not in an IW way. I mean weather.
Treads carefully.
Weathers crap. Can't get animals out to pasture. Grounds saturated. Sick of it.

molloyjh · 06-05-2015 12:34PM

OldRio wrote: »

Soooooooo.

Wet isn't it?
Not in an IW way. I mean weather.
Treads carefully.
Weathers crap. Can't get animals out to pasture. Grounds saturated. Sick of it.

I blame MOC. When Joe Schmidt was in charge of Leinster I was getting sun burnt at Amlin and Pro12 knock-out games 2 years ago. Now look at the weather. The results speak for themselves.

#MOCOut

:D:D

OldRio · 06-05-2015 12:43PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I blame MOC. When Joe Schmidt was in charge of Leinster I was getting sun burnt at Amlin and Pro12 knock-out games 2 years ago. Now look at the weather. The results speak for themselves.

#MOCOut

:D:D

Price of fodder has gone through the roof as well. It just can't be a coincidence.

irishbucsfan · 06-05-2015 12:44PM

I'm in Sofia today and it's 28 degrees...

awec · 06-05-2015 12:45PM

OldRio wrote: »

Soooooooo.

Wet isn't it?
Not in an IW way. I mean weather.
Treads carefully.
Weathers crap. Can't get animals out to pasture. Grounds saturated. Sick of it.

Can cows not stand out in the rain?

stephen_n · 06-05-2015 12:50PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How about them american footballs?

http://http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/05/american-high-school-teams-now-facing.html?m=1

They're doing it wrong.

OldRio · 06-05-2015 12:59PM

awec wrote: »

Can cows not stand out in the rain?

Ground saturated, cow walks on saturated ground. Cow turns over land with feet. Grass destroyed. No feed.

Not to mention health problems in Cows and calves.

Off Topic Thread too point uh

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