Public sector pay increase

test3test · 28-04-2015 02:48PM

osarusan wrote: »

You think the HSE is terrible because consultants are paid a lot?

No, but partly because so much of the budget goes on over the top salaries and waste.

Like how when our teachers are paid 60k and the kids are still in classrooms. An old classmate of mine is a teacher in the UK and wages are nearly half there.

test3test · 28-04-2015 02:49PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

An utterly irrelevant comparison.

lol. When you do not like it its "An utterly irrelevant comparison". No wonder the troika were mad when they came here. Bring 'em back.

heretochat · 28-04-2015 02:50PM

I knew when I saw the newspaper reports at the weekend regarding a public sector pay increase that the usual boards public sector bashing thread would appear with all sorts of vitriolic comment thrown in for good measure.

Let me clarify - I work in the private sector and have always done so. That is my chosen career path, I paid for my own third level education and am happy with where I am. I live comfortably enough and have no reason to nit pick as to what other peoples' earnings may be.

I have had the normal interaction with public services and can't complain in the vast majority of cases with the level of professionalism I encountered.

I see comments on this and other threads about the great pay and pensions etc in the public sector. To those who brandish this particular argument over and over again I would ask this - why keep looking on from the outside and complaining about it? If the perks are so good, why not join the "party"? From what I can gather there is a lot of open recruitment to the public service now anyway so that is surely an option.

Of course, if such persons were to do so they would have no flaming pitchfork to wave around anymore :rolleyes:

Also I see a lot of comments about Guards, nurses, teachers being paid x2, x3 etc the rate paid elsewhere. Can't recall seeing much in the way of proof of this though. So some sources to inform the debate would help.

Anyway that is just my two cents. I will give way now to the raving brigade again

osarusan · 28-04-2015 02:51PM

test3test wrote: »

Like how when our teachers are paid 60k and the kids are still in classrooms.

Where do you want the kids to be?

test3test · 28-04-2015 02:51PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I'm in my 30's and pay more than 140euro per week into my pension. After 40 years of paying this I will get a pension of approx 17k.*

That is doubtful, given that average public sector pension is currently worth €34,623 per year.
Do not forget the tax free 18 months pay you get on retirement too. How many private sector workers get that?

test3test · 28-04-2015 02:52PM

osarusan wrote: »

Where do you want the kids to be?

typo, I meant to say "in prefabs".

"Like how when our teachers are paid 60k and the kids are still in prefab classrooms."

MonkeyTennis · 28-04-2015 02:54PM

test3test wrote: »

You may well be bemused, but I know loads of public sector workers with great lifestyles,....not surprising when one years average public sector salary would more than comfortably buy an average 2 bedroom apartment in nearly every Irish county except Dublin.

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

you think the average public sector wage is what about 175k?

test3test wrote: »

That is doubtful, given that average public sector pension is currently worth €34,623 per year.
Do not forget the tax free 18 months pay you get on retirement too. How many private sector workers get that?

Youll forgive me for doubting your figures

Tiger Mcilroy · 28-04-2015 02:54PM

Riskymove wrote: »

It is in staff's interest

the problem is finding an effective way of measuring performance standards in a lot of work areas that can be applied to everyone

So basically because the public service have decided its to difficult to implement a system that the vast majority of companies have managed without much trouble...everybody gets a payrise regardless of their ability?

And you wonder why people criticize these planned increases.

Fear Ciarrai · 28-04-2015 02:55PM

heretochat wrote:

I see comments on this and other threads about the great pay and pensions etc in the public sector. To those who brandish this particular argument over and over again I would ask this - why keep looking on from the outside and complaining about it? If the perks are so good, why not join the "party"? From what I can gather there is a lot of open recruitment to the public service now anyway so that is surely an option.

The entry point for Clerical staff in public service is â‚¬409.06 gross. Not many willing to join the party for that.

osarusan · 28-04-2015 02:55PM

test3test wrote: »

That is doubtful, given that average public sector pension is currently worth €34,623 per year.

Could you tell me where that figure came from, and also, how what % of retired PS get that amount or higher?

TerrorFirmer · 28-04-2015 02:56PM

test3test wrote: »

An old classmate of mine is a teacher in the UK and wages are nearly half there.

No, they're not. The ****e being spewed in this thread is simply unreal.

Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415

Luxembourg tops the pay league for both primary and second-level teachers, with salaries in excess of the euro equivalent of €90,000.

Other countries ahead of Ireland at primary level are Korea, Switzerland, Germany and Austria, while at second--level Belgium is also on the list .

The report also shows that, at 915 hours a year Irish primary teachers spend more time in the classroom that many others. The Irish 915 hours compares with an EU average of 768 and an OECD average of 794.

Link

I also took the liberty of looking at the figure for the UK. Works out at about 40K euro. Funny, nowhere near 'half' the Irish figure as you claim - actually it's about 15%.

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 03:00PM

test3test wrote: »

Nobody suggested that, but at the moment Gerry the Guard in Leitrim and Teresa the teacher in Belmullet and Ciaran the decentralised civil servant in Ballygobackwards are paid nearly double what their counterparts are in London and Dusseldorf and Paris...and they still want 2% more!!!! FFS.

If the government wants to increase peoples take home pay, let them reduce taxes - that will help both the private and public sectors.

Really? So if public servants take German level salaries will they get German level services?

How long before a public servant can take Metro to work? As his counterpart in Paris can?

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 03:03PM

test3test wrote: »

That is doubtful, given that average public sector pension is currently worth €34,623 per year.
Do not forget the tax free 18 months pay you get on retirement too. How many private sector workers get that?

I'd love to see the evidence for that!

Mongfinder General · 28-04-2015 03:03PM

test3test wrote: »

That is doubtful, given that average public sector pension is currently worth €34,623 per year.
Do not forget the tax free 18 months pay you get on retirement too. How many private sector workers get that?

You seriously believe that our government will have the finances to support these pensions in 30 or 40 years time? Public sector workers are being sold a pup on this. They are forced to make pension contrbutions into a pension scheme that may not pay out. These payments are mandatory. Private sector workers have a choice. Pension schemes are right up there with pyramid schemes.

jmayo · 28-04-2015 03:04PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Who was a regulator......

Sorry I meant it in past tense.

Jawgap wrote: »

.....plus like the CIA (and our own country's public servants who operate in the realm of crime & security).......'our failures our known, our successes aren't'

And unlike the CIA, Irish regulators only kill people when they screw up.

When Irish regulators have screwed up they have cost billions and left families with dead loved ones.

Please note I am including the people who regulate our health providers.
You know the ones who were and are supposedly responsible for regulating private nursing homes and state care centres like Aras Attracta in Mayo.

Regulation, be it state or industry insiders, in this country has a terrible track record.

Anyway this is off topic.
If the government is doing give away to buy next election, then the least they could do is change USC, tax rates so that all workers could benefit, rather than just rewarding public sector workers whilst getting private sector workers to stump up for it.

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 03:06PM

test3test wrote: »

typo, I meant to say "in prefabs".

"Like how when our teachers are paid 60k and the kids are still in prefab classrooms."

So when there's a demand for school space they should wait to appoint teachers until a school is built?

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 03:07PM

Mongfinder General wrote: »

You seriously believe that our government will have the finances to support these pensions in 30 or 40 years time? Public sector workers are being sold a pup on this. They are forced to make pension contrbutions into a pension scheme that may not pay out. These payments are mandatory. Private sector workers have a choice. Pension schemes are right up there with pyramid schemes.

For that very reason I'd love to be able to withdraw my contributions as credits to invest elsewhere.

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 03:09PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Really? So if public servants take German level salaries will they get German level services?

How long before a public servant can take Metro to work? As his counterpart in Paris can?

You want extra pay to get to work ?

twowheelsonly · 28-04-2015 03:13PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What in my post implied I was suggesting wages should be tied to inflation from 07?

Pay should be frozen until we have a budget surplus. I shouldn't need to tell you how stupid borrowing money to pay wages is.

After that wages should be tied to inflation with an automatic shut down when in deficit.

This serves two functions, it encourages the government to run a surplus and secondly prevents the government from buying votes.

And no everyone shouldn't be paid the same. That's not what tied to inflation means.

Hence why public sector pay should be legally bound to cost of living.

Your statement is above - I mentioned 2007 as PS pay has been stagnant since then. Cost of living has risen again in recent times but PS pay hasn't.

I appreciate and understand your comment about borrowing but they're borrowing to run services and that costs money, most of which is wages as there is no 'product' as such in most cases. The only available income to pay for these services is our taxes, yours and mine. If they stopped borrowing for this then taxes would have to rise to stupid levels. We're caught in a catch 22 situation at the moment

test3test wrote: »

Whatever about buying cars and houses they should not be able to go on hen and stag weekends to Berlin and fancy cities like that as well as other fancy holidays every few months, as well as having a fancy pension to look forward to.

"Zey shall not have ze holidays "

test3test wrote: »

You may well be bemused, but I know loads of public sector workers with great lifestyles,....not surprising when one years average public sector salary would more than comfortably buy an average 2 bedroom apartment in nearly every Irish county except Dublin.

Strangely enough I know a lot more Private Sector workers with great lifestyles including 2 with their own helicopters. Personally I don't know anyone in the Public sector with the same. Another private sector worker I know saved for 3 years and bought a 3 bedroom house (in Cork, in a decent area ) as he didn't want a mortgage.
You can't just judge an entire sector of people just because you know some of their circumstances.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nope, but did get to 20% over the private sector. So to high. Saying private sector wages were high to justify even higher public sector wages is baffling to me.

Again that was 'Averages' - possibly the single worst word in the dictionary!! The guy doing 10 or 15 hours in Dunnes/McDonalds was included in this Private Sector 'average' whereas probably 99% of Public Sector were full time workers. Take the part-timers out of the equation for Private Sector and the average will rise dramatically.

astrofool wrote: »

Then why don't you pay into a private pension and give up your right to a public sector pension? Approach your shop steward to allow you to do this.

Certainly, in my case, the Pension is MANDATORY. No Shop Steward or anyone else can get around that. That's why the introduction of the Pension Levy was so hated. It was literally like shooting fish in a barrel. One guy I know (now a sitting TD ) didn't have a pension at the time - his sector wasn't mandatory - but because he was entitled to avail of a State Pension if he choose then they were hit with the levy. Don't actually know what the outcome of that was BTW.

astrofool · 28-04-2015 03:19PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Wouldn't you think that if the Govt wasn't quids in in relation to pensions that they'd give us an opt out?! Now why isn't there an opt out? The answer is simple, the Govt take in far more from our pensions than they will be paying us out.

I challenge you to back up the assertion that they pay out more than people now pay in.

I'm in my 30's and pay more than 140euro per week into my pension. After 40 years of paying this I will get a pension of approx 17k.*

If I was to pay that per week into a private pension how much would I get? (I'll give you a clue... it'll be far more than 17k per year.)

*The amount is likely to change for the worse before I get to retirement age.

Your final retirement benefit will be based on your salary at retirement, so don't worry, once you hit 60, there will be plenty of promotions for you to max this out, and when you cause a bank meltdown due to incompetence, you can retire quickly with a golden handshake.

Now, you're f*cked because the system is unsustainable, the government won't have enough money from the richest corporation kings to pay the current 30-40 year old public servants, but those nearing retirement age today(which usually include the union chiefs) will have a whale of a time at your expense. The unionist slogan should be "F*ck the young ones, I've had my fun and that's all that matters".

Iwasfrozen · 28-04-2015 03:25PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Your statement is above - I mentioned 2007 as PS pay has been stagnant since then. Cost of living has risen again in recent times but PS pay hasn't.

I appreciate and understand your comment about borrowing but they're borrowing to run services and that costs money, most of which is wages as there is no 'product' as such in most cases. The only available income to pay for these services is our taxes, yours and mine. If they stopped borrowing for this then taxes would have to rise to stupid levels. We're caught in a catch 22 situation at the moment

Yes, as I was saying public sector wages should increase with inflation when the budget is in surplus. I don't mean we should retrospectively increase wages with regards to inflation since 2007, that would cost far too much.

We don't need to cut wages to bring the budget back into surplus, leaving the wage freeze in place would achieve the same goal in a few years.

Mongfinder General · 28-04-2015 03:28PM

I can only imagine the reaction if Howlin announces that pay increases will be backdated. PS bashers will go ape ****.

Quin_Dub · 28-04-2015 03:33PM

Comparing Public Sector pay to Private sector pay is pointless..

I have absolutely nothing against Public Sector staff.. What I do have a problem with (and fundamentally what I believe most people actually have a problem with) is the Structures and processes of the Public sector.

It is utterly lacking in accountability at the management and financial level and at it's core actually promotes poor work practices and mediocre performance.

Consider this.

Private Sector employee - Working in a typical Multi-national.
Annual performance reviews with the results tied to Bonus pay-outs and salary rates.
If that employee wants to keep their job or to get ahead , they are motivated to work hard , go the extra mile to be as close the the top of the rankings as possible when it comes to review time..If they achieve that, they get the rewards - Larger bonus , bigger pay-rise and potentially promotion. Just as importantly , they see that the guys that didn't put in the effort get smaller bonus/pay rises , or perhaps get nothing at all.. And for the really poor performers - They get shown the door..

All of which makes people strive to do more, do better etc..

Public Sector employee - Fixed pay rates , no bonus , will only get pay rises when everyone gets exactly the same % increase. Everyone is rewarded the same regardless of effort or quality of work. In the long run why would anyone in the public sector strive to be better , to work harder if there is no reward at the end of it . Personal pride and/or Job satisfaction can only last for so long...Eventually the natural tendency is to slide back into the pack, to do just enough to get by.. If you are looking around your team and seeing that no matter how hard you work, you'll get exactly the same as the lazy tosser in the corner who barely bothers to dress himself in the morning, why on earth would you bother???

This is the problem in the public sector - Fix that and it's a whole new ball game..

Not saying that the Private sector Review/Stack Ranking type system is perfect..not by any means.. But anything , literally anything has to be better than the homogenised shíte that is the current PS model...

Good people must be able to feel valued for their efforts...That's not happening today..

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 03:36PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You want extra pay to get to work ?

No. I'm just pointing out how it seems people are quick enough to compare salary levels in Ireland with other countries, but less so when it comes to services.

KomradeBishop · 28-04-2015 03:39PM

We have the lowest interest rate on government bonds/debt for over 30 years right now - we should be expanding the budget deficit (both through spending and tax reductions), to grow the economy, given that doing so would be so cheap to do right now - and then bring it back to surplus when we have full private sector employment.

Pointless trying to pay down our national debt, when it can be expanded sustainably (due to quarter-century-low interest rates), when we aren't even running at full economic capacity yet - when we've got everyone back working, i.e. when tax income is at its maximum potential and the economy is at full speed, that is when you pay down debts, as you can pay them back much faster then.

scary · 28-04-2015 03:47PM

test3test wrote: »

That is doubtful, given that average public sector pension is currently worth €34,623 per year.
Do not forget the tax free 18 months pay you get on retirement too. How many private sector workers get that?

The average doesn't apply to everyone.

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 03:54PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

What fancy pensions? It's a myth.

If I paid into a private pension I'd get a much higher return... unfortunately I'm not allowed, ever wonder why paying into our pension is compulsory? The answer is simple, the Govt get faaaaaar more from the pension levy and our other pension contributions than they pay out to us.

How much does it cost today to fund a 30,000 pension for a 65 year old?

Ans €1,200,000

How many people have a fund in their pension of €1,200,000?

Ans very few

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 04:01PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Wouldn't you think that if the Govt wasn't quids in in relation to pensions that they'd give us an opt out?! Now why isn't there an opt out? The answer is simple, the Govt take in far more from our pensions than they will be paying us out.

I challenge you to back up the assertion that they pay out more than people now pay in.

I'm in my 30's and pay more than 140euro per week into my pension. After 40 years of paying this I will get a pension of approx 17k.*

If I was to pay that per week into a private pension how much would I get? (I'll give you a clue... it'll be far more than 17k per year.)

*The amount is likely to change for the worse before I get to retirement age.

Check the rates life assurance companies pay on annuities - about 2.5% of a fund for a 65 year old. Therefore you woukd need a fund of 680,000 at date of retirement. Youll have paid in 290,000. Get a pension calculatir to see what annual interest etc you woukd need to earn on your contributions over the 40 years. Food for thought.

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 04:02PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

So basically because the public service have decided its to difficult to implement a system that the vast majority of companies have managed without much trouble...everybody gets a payrise regardless of their ability?

And you wonder why people criticize these planned increases.

I agreed it was in PS interests to get a system and I pointed out a significant problem with the current system

Your response shows why we can't have proper discussion on the issue...particularly on AH I suppose.

The PS is very different from private sector in terms of performance indicators

sales, profits, number of units built etc don't apply generally

the work is also open to political interference, changing priorities, indeed even throwing areas of work in the bin at a moment's notice

even obvious things like grades for teachers don't really work

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 04:03PM

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd love to see the evidence for that!

I presume he means the lump sum

all private pension funds can produce a similar lump sum which is tax free under €200,000

Public sector pay increase

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