Public sector pay increase

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 09:40AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Public service workers were paid 20% more than comparably qualified private sector workers before the public sector pay cuts.

that study had little to do with comparable jobs, it was, as you say about how much people with a certain level of qualification earned

TerrorFirmer · 28-04-2015 09:40AM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

Its the equivalent of comparing a pilot to a bus driver.

It just reinforces the point that most people expressing outrage don't really have a clue what they're talking about.

Another good point is when people moan about how we've one of the highest paid public sectors in Europe.

The fact that we also have one of the highest average private sector wages gets conveniently ignored.

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 09:44AM

JillyQ wrote: »

Sorry you are very wrong to compare a senior detective with a senior employee of a security company there roles are vastly different.

Please expand.

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 09:47AM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

I don't see the issue (if it is the case, but I think the figures are being massaged to suit an agenda), in a lot of instances they are doing a job that warrants higher pay, of course this will be ignored by the rabble brigade. Also private sector workers in general have much greater opportunities from promotion and wage increases as they gain more experience.

Its the equivalent of comparing a pilot to a bus driver.

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is prob doing similar things. You think every senior guard is Colombo?

twowheelsonly · 28-04-2015 09:53AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's not an answer to why Ireland has some of the highest paid public sector/service workers in the EU.

And some of the highest paid Private Sector workers as well..

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why does Ireland have some of the highest paid public service/sector workers in the EZ/EU ?

Because they were benchmarked against the Private Sector when the gap became too much.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why was the Troika banging on about PS pay for so long ?

They weren't... Yes, they were on about it but it was our own overlords and populists like Eddie Hobbs that kept banging on about it. Likewise the water charges - the Troika never insisted that we had to charge for water but our own puppets used the Troika as an excuse to impose that.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hence why public sector pay should be legally bound to cost of living.

So everyone would be paid the same?? How does that work??
If it's relative to increases on current wages then you do realise that a lot of PS workers would be due massive increases - a lot more than 2%.

jcon1913 wrote: »

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

I think you just lost that argument..

I'd be interested in knowing how much people are worth, in particular in comparison to their own job and how much they would expect to be paid for doing the same job.

How much is a Garda patrolling Temple Bar or Sheriff Street worth?
How much is a nurse in the Mater A & E worth?
How much is the Prison Officer in Mountjoy worth?
How much is a Clerk in the Tax Office worth?
How much is the Chef in the Shelbourne worth?
How much is an IT worker with KPMG worth?
How much is a washing machine repair man worth?

etc, etc....

It's all very well saying someone on 50k is overpaid while you're on 45k doing a completely different and possibly lower (or higher!!) stress job.

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 09:56AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

And some of the highest paid Private Sector workers as well..

Because they were benchmarked against the Private Sector when the gap became too much.

They weren't... Yes, they were on about it but it was our own overlords and populists like Eddie Hobbs that kept banging on about it. Likewise the water charges - the Troika never insisted that we had to charge for water but our own puppets used the Troika as an excuse to impose that.

So everyone would be paid the same?? How does that work??
If it's relative to increases on current wages then you do realise that a lot of PS workers would be due massive increases - a lot more than 2%.

I think you just lost that argument..

I'd be interested in knowing how much people are worth, in particular in comparison to their own job and how much they would expect to be paid for doing the same job.

How much is a Garda patrolling Temple Bar or Sheriff Street worth?
How much is a nurse in the Mater A & E worth?
How much is the Prison Officer in Mountjoy worth?
How much is a Clerk in the Tax Office worth?
How much is the Chef in the Shelbourne worth?
How much is an IT worker with KPMG worth?
How much is a washing machine repair man worth?

etc, etc....

It's all very well saying someone on 50k is overpaid while you're on 45k doing a completely different and possibly lower (or higher!!) stress job.

Now pick some comparable jobs.

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 10:00AM

Riskymove wrote: »

if you really think a senior employee in a security company does a comparable job to a senior Garda Detective then I can only assume you have little idea what a detective does.

Please expand

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 10:08AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Please expand

A senior employee in a security firm focuses on protecting the company or client.

A senior detective focuses on protecting society, detecting crime and compiling cases to allow due punishment to be dished out.

When I worked as a regulator my job was to make sure the regulated entities followed the rules so as to protect the public - now it's to minimise the cost of compliance for my clients.

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 10:11AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

Nurse - private sector nurse

How many EDs are run by private companies? By extension who do you compare an ED nurse or a consultant in Emergency Medicine to?

Who do EOD personnel get compared to?

ATCOs?

Etc

Etc

jmayo · 28-04-2015 10:30AM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It just reinforces the point that most people expressing outrage don't really have a clue what they're talking about.

Another good point is when people moan about how we've one of the highest paid public sectors in Europe.

The fact that we also have one of the highest average private sector wages gets conveniently ignored.

It would be interesting to take out the multinationals and see how that figure changes.
I would hazard a guess we have quiet a high precentage of pretty technical jobs in our private sector compared to say some other countries.

Jawgap wrote: »

A senior employee in a security firm focuses on protecting the company or client.

A senior detective focuses on protecting society, detecting crime and compiling cases to allow due punishment to be dished out.

When I worked as a regulator my job was to make sure the regulated entities followed the rules so as to protect the public - now it's to minimise the cost of compliance for my clients.

Someone who admits to being a regulator of some sort in Ireland :eek:
I can't actually think of many of our regulatory authorities that haven't majorily screwed up.
Building, financial, health regulators have all majorily screwed up in this country and indeed cost lives.
About the only one that has pretty good record I can think of is food.

JillyQ · 28-04-2015 10:33AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Please expand.

The roles of the gardai & security companies are entirely different at times they are intertwined With the use of CCTV footage etc.
The job of senior managers in the private security industry is to get new business in for there respective employers, unlike dectectives where it is investigate criminal offences. How are the two compariable?

Jawgap · 28-04-2015 10:36AM

jmayo wrote: »

........

Someone who admits to being a regulator of some sort in Ireland :eek:
I can't actually think of many of our regulatory authorities that haven't majorily screwed up.
Building, financial, health regulators have all majorily screwed up in this country and indeed cost lives.
About the only one that has pretty good record I can think of is food.

Who was a regulator......

.....plus like the CIA (and our own country's public servants who operate in the realm of crime & security).......'our failures our known, our successes aren't'

scary · 28-04-2015 10:36AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Average are not speculative.

I never said they were, but that's all that people can base this argument on,unless there is actual like for like comparisons, other than averages everything else is speculation.

twowheelsonly · 28-04-2015 10:40AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Now pick some comparable jobs.

That's missing the point...

I don't want it as a likewise comparison. I want to see how much monetary value people would put on various other peoples jobs in comparison to their own. i.e. would you do that job for that money?

As a comparison, if that's your thing, is the IT worker worth more than the Prison Officer who is sitting at home this morning with 50/60 stitches in his face?

Is the Revenue Clerk worth more or less than the guy that came to fix your washing machine yesterday.

Everyone thinks that they should be paid well for what they do but in comparison to other jobs are you over or under paid??

BTW, Public Sector pay rates are out there but very few full time Private sector workers seem to be willing to declare what they actually earn, including benefits/perks or even declare what their jobs are!!

twowheelsonly · 28-04-2015 10:48AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is prob doing similar things. You think every senior guard is Colombo?

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is probably getting paid as much if not more than a Senior Detective, plus perks.

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 11:30AM

JillyQ wrote: »

The roles of the gardai & security companies are entirely different at times they are intertwined With the use of CCTV footage etc.
The job of senior managers in the private security industry is to get new business in for there respective employers, unlike dectectives where it is investigate criminal offences. How are the two compariable?

Do you base this on experience in work?

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 11:35AM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It just reinforces the point that most people expressing outrage don't really have a clue what they're talking about.

Another good point is when people moan about how we've one of the highest paid public sectors in Europe.

The fact that we also have one of the highest average private sector wages gets conveniently ignored.

Yeah and public service wages are higher again than that .... Jesus...

Quin_Dub · 28-04-2015 11:35AM

It seems to me that all of this has boiled down to whether or not we can introduce Meritocracy in the PS.

Arguments about pay rates , Public vs. Private sector are largely moot.

In the private sector , an individuals salary, once they are established in the role/company has little to do with their qualifications or their tenure.. It's all about performance.

There have been numerous poster here saying that you can't really measure certain PS roles because they are so unique etc.. Frankly I couldn't disagree more..

They may not have comparable Private sector roles, but that doesn't matter.

Salary is driven by demand for the role and the competence (or better) of the person.. If there is no external demand for the role , then that becomes a lesser factor in terms of impact to salary. If you cannot pit a measurement of quality or performance on a role , then it's probably not needed to be brutally honest.

The fundamental issue that most people external to the PS have with salaries and costs in general is a perception of a lack of value on the money spent - Whether that's wasting money on redundant projects or seeming to over pay people for certain types of work..

What's needed to address that is transparency around how and why money is spent..

Being able to say that you pay Nurses X amount because they achieve certain criteria or perhaps more importantly that people get re-assigned or potentially made redundant if it's felt that they would be better utilised elsewhere or maybe that that the function or department is no longer needed..

Blanket pay rises (and pay cuts) make no sense and continue to drive the perception of a lack of accountability and proper financial management in the PS - That has to change.

If there is budget for a 2% increase in the PS pay-roll, then fine... But manage it like the private sector..

Does everyone deserve a 2% pay-rise ? - Absolutely not , some do , some probably deserve more , some perhaps deserve less than nothing...

Some people (the best performers) might get a 10% increase , other might get nothing and everyone else will get various levels in between..

The unions however , will fight this to the end , because.. In a meritocracy , you don't need unions , people get what they deserve , people see their value and the unions can no longer pretend to "fight for everyones rights" when in fact what they are doing is rewarding and promoting mediocrity.

JillyQ · 28-04-2015 11:38AM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Do you base this on experience in work?

Yes

jcon1913 · 28-04-2015 11:39AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is probably getting paid as much if not more than a Senior Detective, plus perks.

Probably do they deserve it?

jank · 28-04-2015 12:38PM

Public Sector Pay increased by 130% from 2000 to 2007. Now obviously this was unsustainable from both an expectation and budgetary position, it was one of the main reasons of the crash. Now that the economy has improved since the catastrophe of 2008 the Public Sector and their unions are having their hands out.

Public sector pay should be given over to an independent non political body. Of course the high level of PS pay and pensions is one of the reasons why we still have schools made up of prefabs. In general Irish levels of facilities compared to OECD counterparts is muck. Banged up Ford Feista's as police cars being an example. Yet the car cannot vote, the Garda in the car does so when push comes to shove the Gardai will rather increase their pay packet rather then get a better police car or a better uniform. This is the same across the board. Hence why we need to establish an independent Public sector pay body. Not benchmarking Mark II by the way but something that can assess wether or not pay increase are warranted or that money is better directed into facilities and projects. Like IT projects that can help some of the mess in the HSE or social welfare. Billions need to be spent bring up processes and departments up to speed with their OECD counterparts, yet those billions will be frittered away in voting buying exercises.

Iwasfrozen · 28-04-2015 12:43PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

So everyone would be paid the same?? How does that work??
If it's relative to increases on current wages then you do realise that a lot of PS workers would be due massive increases - a lot more than 2%.

What in my post implied I was suggesting wages should be tied to inflation from 07?

Pay should be frozen until we have a budget surplus. I shouldn't need to tell you how stupid borrowing money to pay wages is.

After that wages should be tied to inflation with an automatic shut down when in deficit.

This serves two functions, it encourages the government to run a surplus and secondly prevents the government from buying votes.

And no everyone shouldn't be paid the same. That's not what tied to inflation means.

test3test · 28-04-2015 12:50PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why does Ireland have some of the highest paid public service/sector workers in the EZ/EU ?

Because the government are basically publicaly sector, Bertie was in bed with the unions and private sector were foolish enough to allow that situation to develop while tax revenue flowed in from the property bubble.

28-04-2015 12:52PM

jank wrote: »

Public Sector Pay increased by 130% from 2000 to 2007. Now obviously this was unsustainable from both an expectation and budgetary position, it was one of the main reasons of the crash.

That is total bull s*it, public sector pay hadn't a single thing to do with the crash.

Christ some people are seriously blinded by their hate of the public sector, must have been turned down for one of the "highly paid" jobs.

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 12:54PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

That us total bull s*it, public sector pay hadn't a single thing to do with the crash.

Really Sarah the nurse and Barry the Garda buying houses they should not be able to afford for example 2 cars all that. Pushing up prices in the general economy with artificially high wages.

TerrorFirmer · 28-04-2015 12:56PM

jank wrote: »

Public Sector Pay increased by 130% from 2000 to 2007. Now obviously this was unsustainable from both an expectation and budgetary position, it was one of the main reasons of the crash.

Right. :rolleyes:

test3test · 28-04-2015 12:57PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Many PS workers that would be on the pigs back in Mayo/Wexford etc. would probably be struggling on the same pay-grade in Artane or Deansgrange.

Indeed there was an article in the papers last year that pointed out that in nearly all Irish counties, one years average public sector salary would more than comfortably buy an average 2 bedroom apartment. Apartments can be got for €49,000 and less in most counties.

Nowhere else in the world can public servants buy a relatively new apartment for the equivalent of less than one years gross wages. The country is still borrowing tens of billions and yet they want a 2% increase?

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 12:57PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Right. :rolleyes:

How many Public servants were property speculators too that lost everything and owe loads ?

TerrorFirmer · 28-04-2015 12:59PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How many Public servants were property speculators too that lost everything and owe loads ?

And how many private sector workers in the same boat?

Stating that public sector wages were the main cause of the crash is ridiculous.

test3test · 28-04-2015 12:59PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really Sarah the nurse and Barry the Garda buying houses they should not be able to afford for example 2 cars all that. Pushing up prices in the general economy with artificially high wages.

Whatever about buying cars and houses they should not be able to go on hen and stag weekends to Berlin and fancy cities like that as well as other fancy holidays every few months, as well as having a fancy pension to look forward to.

Public sector pay increase

Comments