Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

hinault · 22-04-2015 03:27PM

obplayer wrote: »

Or perhaps the lessening grip of the Church and access to more information has allowed people to be able to think more clearly and see that the emperor is naked.

Does this thinking more clearly and seeing more clearly involve debating realities, such as Heaven and Hell, the Supernatural, while claiming that these realities don't exist?

The need to try to persuade other people that these realities don't exist is indicative of less thinking and less seeing.

I don't spend time condemning those who don't believe, or condemn those who choose to believe something different.
If they want to take the path they're taking, so be it.

marienbad · 22-04-2015 03:32PM

ABC101 wrote: »

This country would have had zero education had it not been for various religious orders who set up schools over the last 200 years. When educating Irish children was a grave offence under penal times.

When the state was too poor to provide for education schools the religious orders stepped in and provided a service.

Terrible pity that some athiests will never recognise the enormous contribution religious orders have made to many previous generations of Irish people and to the Irish State in general.

Oh by the way... religious orders also ran numerous hospitals.... in fact nuns gave their entire lives (without monetary renumeration) to caring for the sick and poor. There was'nt 500 people waiting on trolleys then either!

You as an athiest... do you object to this too?

Abc , this is simply incorrect , the RCC opposed at every turn any form of secular education . If they hadn't we would have an education system similar to N.Ireland or England . When it came down to it they deemed it was either a Catholic education or no education .

Similarly with our health provision .God forbid the secular state should get their grubby hands on that ! Imagine if we had a working national health system like the UK !

PopePalpatine · 22-04-2015 05:14PM

There weren't 500 people on trolleys back on those days...but I'd take that over hundreds of women locked up for supposed "immorality" any day of the week.

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 05:15PM

silverharp wrote: »

Its history and it should have no bearing on how services are provided now . I've no idea how alternate histories would have worked out but society would have worked out something which could have built on instead of being left with something that needs to be dismantled. The goal of any religious outfit is indrocronation of the young so as to keep a perpetual hold on the society so none of these services were given without strings attached.

Sounds like you were born 100 years too early.

Change takes time, in 100 years there may be no Christians left in Ireland (perhaps).

Why does the current educational system require dismantling, when it is only a handful of people who object to the current status quo?

On another point... saying if the Religious institutions had not stepped in then somebody else / something else would have stepped in instead i.e. the state etc.

Well that is most propably true, however it would have taken much much longer for the state to get it's act together. Several generations would have passed before the state had a education system fully up and running.

Remember... there was a time in Ireland... when the Official state.... did not want the natives educated.

Safehands · 22-04-2015 05:15PM

hinault wrote: »

And it's only merciful and just that those who hate God be not forced to dwell in the presence of God.
Everyone who is in Hell are there by their own choice.

This is nonsense. If a good person, living a good life, who cannot believe in God and cannot believe in Hell either, dies and to their amazement they find that God is real. In your scenario that good person will be condemned to hell because entry to Heaven is forbidden for non believers or those whose logical brains told them it was all too far fetched.
That is some off-the-wall understanding of infinite love!

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 05:38PM

looksee wrote: »

You were discussing hell, if you want to post about heaven I will ask the same question.

Don't you have to be dead to go to any of these places (I thought purgatory had been discontinued?) How did the author of these books know what the saints had experienced?

Your analogy is about the devil and god, I gather? I can see the concept but I can't see that it proves anything, you have still not told me how you can be so certain that this is how things happen.

Purguatory has not been discontinued, it is still part of R.C. belief / Theology.

The book I read was not written by a another person. The Diary of Saint Faustina was the diary of Sr Faustina Kowalska, in other words ..... she wrote it herself.

In relation to your point about "having to be dead to go to these places", well nothing is impossible to God. These saints (of which St Faustina is just one) who have seen Heaven / Hell / Purgatory etc were invited to visit these places while they were still alive on Earth.

In relation to your question about proving something, I was not attempting to prove anything. I was merely pointing out the logic / understanding which is behind the belief. Chrisitans believe this... and this is the logic / explanation behind it etc.

WRT the belief system in Christianity, it is not just outright faith, there are rules / concepts. These rules and concepts are backed up with logical arguments / explanations as to explain why the beliefs are held.

If you desire further explanation... there is a book called "The Faith Explained" by Leo J. Trese.

On another note.... I think it is interesting how athiests place a very high value on proof.

marienbad · 22-04-2015 05:42PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Sounds like you were born 100 years too early.

Change takes time, in 100 years there may be no Christians left in Ireland (perhaps).

Why does the current educational system require dismantling, when it is only a handful of people who object to the current status quo?

On another point... saying if the Religious institutions had not stepped in then somebody else / something else would have stepped in instead i.e. the state etc.

Well that is most propably true, however it would have taken much much longer for the state to get it's act together. Several generations would have passed before the state had a education system fully up and running.

Remember... there was a time in Ireland... when the Official state.... did not want the natives educated.

Again ABC this is a false reading of history , the Penal Laws had no applicability when the education system was being formed . It is reasonable to assume that we would have had the exact same education trajectory as the rest of the UK .

You are using the exact same arguments I see the Empire apologists use re India and such where they bang on about building railways and other infrastructure. The implication being that without them there would have been no railways etc . Rubbish as we know , how did Japan manage .

No ,the fact is the RCC was the major stumbling block to education until they got the system they wanted, as they would later behave when it came to health.

This is not to deny the great contribution they made after they got control of those areas , but it was done out of ideological reasons as well as charitable reasons and they got well paid for it as we now know .

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 05:51PM

Safehands wrote: »

This is nonsense. If a good person, living a good life, who cannot believe in God and cannot believe in Hell either, dies and to their amazement they find that God is real. In your scenario that good person will be condemned to hell because entry to Heaven is forbidden for non believers or those whose logical brains told them it was all too far fetched.
That is some off-the-wall understanding of infinite love!

From the perspective of an athiest.... I could understand your comment.

Only God will know what will happen to those "Good athiest's" who have led good lives (as you call it) when they die.

However if it is true that there is a God, and that Jesus Christ is his Son, and that there are numerous rules / regulations i.e. 10 commandments etc

Then it would be the case that the good athiest who did not do anything wrong to his fellow human beings would be in a bit of an conundrum... as they did not do anything particularly right spiritually towards God.

Chrisitians are called upon to not only do good works to their fellow human beings, but they are also to attempt to incorporate God into their daily lives.

It is kind of surrendering your will.... to that of God's will.

WRT to our good athiest who has died and is now standing before God getting judged, well I cannot say for certain what will happen to them. But I can logically say... that there is a increased risk of being denied entry into Heaven.

Could I ask you to put yourself in God's place, what would you say to the athiest? Now put yourself in the place of the athiest, what would they say to God? What would the conversation look like?

Safehands · 22-04-2015 05:52PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Purguatory has not been discontinued, it is still part of R.C. belief / Theology.

The book I read was not written by a another person. The Diary of Saint Faustina was the diary of Sr Faustina Kowalska, in other words ..... she wrote it herself.

In relation to your point about "having to be dead to go to these places", well nothing is impossible to God. These saints (of which St Faustina is just one) who have seen Heaven / Hell / Purgatory etc were invited to visit these places while they were still alive on Earth.

In relation to your question about proving something, I was not attempting to prove anything. I was merely pointing out the logic / understanding which is behind the belief. Chrisitans believe this... and this is the logic / explanation behind it etc.

Did you use the word "LOGIC" in the context of Purgatory??

ABC101 wrote: »

I think it is interesting how athiests place a very high value on proof.

Yes it's very interesting. As opposed to believing things which are absolutely unprovable, defy every known law of physics and are believed just because the Bible says they are real.

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 05:55PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

There weren't 500 people on trolleys back on those days...but I'd take that over hundreds of women locked up for supposed "immorality" any day of the week.

I think there was a article in the Journal recently about "immoral women" getting sentenced to jail.... perhaps more to do with alcohol abuse.

However it was not courts of clergy who sentenced these women, but civil courts.

Safehands · 22-04-2015 06:14PM

ABC101 wrote: »

WRT to our good athiest who has died and is now standing before God getting judged, well I cannot say for certain what will happen to them. But I can logically say... that there is a increased risk of being denied entry into Heaven.

There you go again, misusing the word logically!

ABC101 wrote: »

I ask you to put yourself in God's place, what would you say to the athiest? Now put yourself in the place of the athiest, what would they say to God? What would the conversation look like?

Great question! Well, in that scenario I would concede that I was wrong. If I were God I would simply say "Look at you, you must feel a little embarressed. Don't worry about it my friend. I am as loving as my followers said, now come on in and enjoy Heaven. You are a good man and you are most welcome."
I would reply "Thank's God. Maybe I should have listened but it was just too incredible, you know what I mean, I'm sure. Because you know everything. Where's the pub? Do they serve Bushmills?"

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 07:04PM

Safehands wrote: »

There you go again, misusing the word logically!

Your perspective correct, my perspective wrong, or so it would appear.

Is it illogical to use logic in a domain of belief / discussing the role of belief?

Or is it that your perspective tells you logic can only be used in the field of science / areas where proof can be given?

Rezident · 22-04-2015 07:10PM

ScumLord wrote: »

If god is infallible why does he need to meddle in people's lives telling them what to do? Doesn't meddling imply that he made a mistake and has to correct it?

I don't see guidance as 'meddling', I see it as helping.

ScumLord wrote: »

The universe and everything in it has worked like clockwork since it started. It could be argued that if something did create the universe they could have done so with the intention of it producing intelligent life of some sort. They could have set the conditions of the universe which would have meant it was pretty much inevitable that an intelligent species would evolve at some point.

With the universe being such a perfect and predictable piece of work how did he make such a mess of humans, as to have them instinctively doing all the things he doesn't want us to do?

Did god misjudge how humans would turn out? Did he make mistakes? Is god fallible? If he's not fallible and knew humans would break all his rules, why did he bother at all?

He gave us free will.

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 07:14PM

Safehands wrote: »

Great question! Well, in that scenario I would concede that I was wrong. If I were God I would simply say "Look at you, you must feel a little embarressed. Don't worry about it my friend. I am as loving as my followers said, now come on in and enjoy Heaven. You are a good man and you are most welcome."
I would reply "Thank's God. Maybe I should have listened but it was just too incredible, you know what I mean, I'm sure. Because you know everything. Where's the pub? Do they serve Bushmills?"

So that is your perspective in this scenario.

I think athiests are in a very tight corner. They require to make a leap of faith, however something inside of them holds them back. They are unable to make the leap without physical proof, evidence etc etc.

It is kind of like the chicken and egg scenario. A athiest will say... show me proof, and then I will believe. Here the onus is on God to make the first move.

With believers.... if the believer intends to love / serve God more each day, God slowly reveals himself to the believer. The believer makes the first move.

I believe.. not just because I was brought up as a R.C. Christian... but I have attempted to develop my love for God. And I have been very fortunate as God has answered a great many of my problems throughout my life.

hinault · 22-04-2015 07:44PM

Safehands wrote: »

This is nonsense. If a good person, living a good life, who cannot believe in God and cannot believe in Hell either, dies and to their amazement they find that God is real. In your scenario that good person will be condemned to hell because entry to Heaven is forbidden for non believers or those whose logical brains told them it was all too far fetched.
That is some off-the-wall understanding of infinite love!

A "good" person is defined by what? By not being Christian?

The Gospels teach that the only way to Salvation is through belief and adherence to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Christ teaches that salvation is only through Him.

The only exception that I can see to this is the person living in some remote part of the world who has had no contact with the message of Jesus Christ.
That person may be an exception.

The rest of us who have heard of Jesus Christ will be judged according to our level of compliance with His teaching.

Michael OBrien · 22-04-2015 07:53PM

ABC101 wrote: »

As a Christian... I have read books about various Saints who have visited Hell, Heaven and Purgatory.

Not just one Saint, but numerous saints, however St Faustina Kowalska being one of the most recent.

What I mean by logical explanation?

Luke 16:19-31 disproves any saint claims of going to heaven/hell and returning. I was a catholic for about 25 years before becoming a nondenominational christian and then deist and then atheist.
The bible repeatedly rejects providing evidence or allowing the dead to rise to attest to an afterlife. Those saints are mistaken. The jews also did not believe in the kind of afterlife that later christians developed. Jesus did not believe in that kind of testimony either, hence the parable.
Modern christianity has widely different takes on heaven and hell, if such testimonies had any genuine merit, they would be adopted as church doctrine.
A modern example of a false claim was the boy from the recent story of going to heaven that was made into a christian film. He publically renounced the entire experience in his teens. Christians ignored his statement and still watch the film, despite it being a complete lie. People love the stories, more than scepticism. The sceptic is seldom loved as it spoils the illusion that inspires hope that death is not the end and loved ones will be reunited.
Now look back in church history and imagine how easy such tales would be accepted back then, where doubt was vilified and faith rewarded.

obplayer · 22-04-2015 07:54PM

hinault wrote: »

Does this thinking more clearly and seeing more clearly involve debating realities, such as Heaven and Hell, the Supernatural, while claiming that these realities don't exist?

The need to try to persuade other people that these realities don't exist is indicative of less thinking and less seeing.

I don't spend time condemning those who don't believe, or condemn those who choose to believe something different.
If they want to take the path they're taking, so be it.

Claiming that they don't exist? Show me one scrap of evidence that they do exist.

hinault · 22-04-2015 07:57PM

ABC101 wrote: »

So that is your perspective in this scenario.

I think athiests are in a very tight corner. They require to make a leap of faith, however something inside of them holds them back. They are unable to make the leap without physical proof, evidence etc etc.

It is kind of like the chicken and egg scenario. A athiest will say... show me proof, and then I will believe. Here the onus is on God to make the first move.

With believers.... if the believer intends to love / serve God more each day, God slowly reveals himself to the believer. The believer makes the first move.

I believe.. not just because I was brought up as a R.C. Christian... but I have attempted to develop my love for God. And I have been very fortunate as God has answered a great many of my problems throughout my life.

Your point about the believer making the first move is very important.

Left to our own devices we can't be saved. We can lead a blameless life but even at that, it is impossible to be saved. We need to be accessible to God's help in order to be saved .

To be accessible to God's help requires us to be humble. We first must recognise our broken human spiritual state and then we need to invoke God's help to try to rectify that broken state.

obplayer · 22-04-2015 07:57PM

ABC101 wrote: »

So that is your perspective in this scenario.

I think athiests are in a very tight corner. They require to make a leap of faith, however something inside of them holds them back. They are unable to make the leap without physical proof, evidence etc etc.

It is kind of like the chicken and egg scenario. A athiest will say... show me proof, and then I will believe. Here the onus is on God to make the first move.

With believers.... if the believer intends to love / serve God more each day, God slowly reveals himself to the believer. The believer makes the first move.

I believe.. not just because I was brought up as a R.C. Christian... but I have attempted to develop my love for God. And I have been very fortunate as God has answered a great many of my problems throughout my life.

The Tao of Pooh is pretty good at dealing with some of life's problems but I don't build my entire belief structure around it.

hinault · 22-04-2015 07:58PM

obplayer wrote: »

Claiming that they don't exist? Show me one scrap of evidence that they do exist.

I'm not here to validate your belief or lack of.

obplayer · 22-04-2015 08:03PM

hinault wrote: »

I'm not here to validate your belief or lack of.

You are making claims about reality which you cannot substantiate. I am not interested in faith, I am interested in evidence. Do you have any?

hinault · 22-04-2015 08:07PM

obplayer wrote: »

You are making claims about reality which you cannot substantiate. I am not interested in faith, I am interested in evidence. Do you have any?

See my direct reply to you earlier at 20.58hrs.

hinault · 22-04-2015 08:10PM

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Luke 16:19-31 disproves any saint claims of going to heaven/hell and returning. I was a catholic for about 25 years before becoming a nondenominational christian and then deist and then atheist.
The bible repeatedly rejects providing evidence or allowing the dead to rise to attest to an afterlife. Those saints are mistaken. The jews also did not believe in the kind of afterlife that later christians developed. Jesus did not believe in that kind of testimony either, hence the parable.
Modern christianity has widely different takes on heaven and hell, if such testimonies had any genuine merit, they would be adopted as church doctrine.
A modern example of a false claim was the boy from the recent story of going to heaven that was made into a christian film. He publically renounced the entire experience in his teens. Christians ignored his statement and still watch the film, despite it being a complete lie. People love the stories, more than scepticism. The sceptic is seldom loved as it spoils the illusion that inspires hope that death is not the end and loved ones will be reunited.
Now look back in church history and imagine how easy such tales would be accepted back then, where doubt was vilified and faith rewarded.

You refuse to accept Jesus Christ's testimony regarding the afterlife?

Clearly you do refuse to accept Jesus Christ's testimony as to the reality that is the afterlife.

Safehands · 22-04-2015 08:10PM

hinault wrote: »

Left to our own devices we can't be saved. We can lead a blameless life but even at that, it is impossible to be saved. We need to be accessible to God's help in order to be saved .

To be accessible to God's help requires us to be humble. We first must recognise our broken human spiritual state and then we need to invoke God's help to try to rectify that broken state.

Great, but then you can't say that God is infinitely merciful.

Safehands · 22-04-2015 08:12PM

ABC101 wrote: »

I believe.. not just because I was brought up as a R.C. Christian... but I have attempted to develop my love for God. And I have been very fortunate as God has answered a great many of my problems throughout my life.

I won't attempt to knock that. You are very lucky to believe that.

hinault · 22-04-2015 08:12PM

Safehands wrote: »

Great, but then you can't say that God is infinitely merciful.

God's mercy is infinite.
God's justice is infinite.
God is infinite.

Safehands · 22-04-2015 08:14PM

hinault wrote: »

God's mercy is infinite.
God's justice is infinite.

You can't have it every way. You just don't have any idea what the word infinite means.

obplayer · 22-04-2015 08:17PM

Safehands wrote: »

You can't have it every way. You just don't have any idea what the word infinite means.

He / she certainly has no idea what the words evidence or proof mean.

hinault · 22-04-2015 08:20PM

Safehands wrote: »

You can't have it every way. You just don't have any idea what the word infinite means.

I think God can have it anyway He chooses. He's God!

Huntergonzo · 22-04-2015 08:25PM

I think the belief in God is an irrational one, there's never been a scrap of evidence to support the existence of any God and there has been many Gods throughout human history...which in itself should raise alarm bells among believers. To be honest I don't have a big problem with people believing in a God, I don't see the need to myself but I don't see it as particularly harmful, however organised religion is very dangerous and has caused nothing but harm the world over.

In Ireland the big problem is of course that we still have religious indoctrination in our schools and a non secular constitution and inevitably of course that leads to specific religious dogma and discrimination permeating every facet of our society. I mean do people really believe all the nonsense of the old and new testaments and if so why do they ignore quite a lot of the evil references in the bible?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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