Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Lantus · 20-04-2015 02:16PM

katydid wrote: »

Which makes Christ's sacrifice, to help us face and deal with this fact, crucially important to the human story.

Jesus (if you believe in the story) was an immortal being who KNEW he was immortal and could neither be hurt or really die in any sense of the word as we understand it.

He had no fear of death because to him it was a meaningless concept. Regardless he sprang back into live after just 3 days without so much as a bother on him (and clean clothes) and then floated back up to heaven again!

Where was the sacrifice?

There are many definitions but a general account would be 'to give up something of value.' Jesus as an immortal being could never do that and springing back into life sort of spoiled the whole notion.

Any ruler who thought for a second he could turn water into wine or anything else would just lock him up until he did tricks for them.

ABC101 · 20-04-2015 04:39PM

Lantus wrote: »

Jesus (if you believe in the story) was an immortal being who KNEW he was immortal and could neither be hurt or really die in any sense of the word as we understand it.

He had no fear of death because to him it was a meaningless concept. Regardless he sprang back into live after just 3 days without so much as a bother on him (and clean clothes) and then floated back up to heaven again!

Where was the sacrifice?

There are many definitions but a general account would be 'to give up something of value.' Jesus as an immortal being could never do that and springing back into life sort of spoiled the whole notion.

Any ruler who thought for a second he could turn water into wine or anything else would just lock him up until he did tricks for them.

If you regard Jesus as worthless... then you will regard the actions / words of Jesus as worthless.

If however you regard Jesus as a devine being, part of the Holy Trinity, then you would regard the actions / sacrifices of Jesus as immense importance / significance.

Nick Park · 20-04-2015 05:38PM

Lantus wrote: »

Jesus (if you believe in the story) was an immortal being who KNEW he was immortal and could neither be hurt or really die in any sense of the word as we understand it.

The idea that Jesus could not be hurt is most certainly not a part of any Christian belief system.

silverharp · 20-04-2015 05:42PM

Nick Park wrote: »

The idea that Jesus could not be hurt is most certainly not a part of any Christian belief system.

but he wanted and needed to be killed , he was hurt in the way that running a marathon can take it out of you.

katydid · 20-04-2015 08:37PM

Lantus wrote: »

Jesus (if you believe in the story) was an immortal being who KNEW he was immortal and could neither be hurt or really die in any sense of the word as we understand it.

He had no fear of death because to him it was a meaningless concept. Regardless he sprang back into live after just 3 days without so much as a bother on him (and clean clothes) and then floated back up to heaven again!

Where was the sacrifice?

There are many definitions but a general account would be 'to give up something of value.' Jesus as an immortal being could never do that and springing back into life sort of spoiled the whole notion.

Any ruler who thought for a second he could turn water into wine or anything else would just lock him up until he did tricks for them.

Nope, he was God incarnate; divine but also a human being who was fully aware of the suffering he would have to undergo. Which was why he cried out on the night he was arrested for the burden to be lifted from him.

His full humanity - God becoming human - was an integral part of the story.

MrPudding · 21-04-2015 07:29AM

J C wrote: »

... He is also able to countenance an unlimited amount of pleasure too.
... and therein lies the rub ... do you want an infinity of pain under His infinite Justice ... or an infinity of pleasure under His infinite Mercy?

Here is my problem with this, well one of them, spending eternity with the likes of you would be an infinity of pain for me, so it seems that I am dammed if I do and damned if I don't. I guess I am lucky it is all nonsense.

MrP

silverharp · 21-04-2015 09:11AM

MrPudding wrote: »

Here is my problem with this, well one of them, spending eternity with the likes of you would be an infinity of pain for me, so it seems that I am dammed if I do and damned if I don't. I guess I am lucky it is all nonsense.

MrP

Heaven is a contradiction , the majority of Christians will have to spend eternity knowing that their infinitely loving Father is torturing a number of their kids , parents ,siblings and best friends.

pauldla · 22-04-2015 12:47AM

silverharp wrote: »

Heaven is a contradiction , the majority of Christians will have to spend eternity knowing that their infinitely loving Father is torturing a number of their kids , parents ,siblings and best friends.

The 'Hitler's Mammy' problem.

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 10:44AM

silverharp wrote: »

Heaven is a contradiction , the majority of Christians will have to spend eternity knowing that their infinitely loving Father is torturing a number of their kids , parents ,siblings and best friends.

A contradiction there..... it is the devils in Hell... which are torturing human souls.

As Satan and his devils hate God.... they hate everything / anything which God has made.

As Humans are made in the image of God.... by torturing humans which are in Hell... they are in effect hurting / damaging a part of God's creation.

Devils are unable to hurt God directly, but they are able to hurt humans in hell.

Zubeneschamali · 22-04-2015 11:02AM

ABC101 wrote: »

Devils are unable to hurt God directly, but they are able to hurt humans in hell.

It's a shame some kindly omnipotent being doesn't take an interest in this Hell place, and rescue the humans from the devils.

hinault · 22-04-2015 12:01PM

ABC101 wrote: »

A contradiction there..... it is the devils in Hell... which are torturing human souls.

As Satan and his devils hate God.... they hate everything / anything which God has made.

As Humans are made in the image of God.... by torturing humans which are in Hell... they are in effect hurting / damaging a part of God's creation.

Devils are unable to hurt God directly, but they are able to hurt humans in hell.

And it's only merciful and just that those who hate God be not forced to dwell in the presence of God.

Everyone who is in Hell are there by their own choice.

hinault · 22-04-2015 12:03PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's a shame some kindly omnipotent being doesn't take an interest in this Hell place, and rescue the humans from the devils.

Those same souls want to be with the Devil.

looksee · 22-04-2015 12:09PM

ABC101 wrote: »

A contradiction there..... it is the devils in Hell... which are torturing human souls.

As Satan and his devils hate God.... they hate everything / anything which God has made.

As Humans are made in the image of God.... by torturing humans which are in Hell... they are in effect hurting / damaging a part of God's creation.

Devils are unable to hurt God directly, but they are able to hurt humans in hell.

This is very precise information, could you give an explanation of how you have these facts available to you please?

Zubeneschamali · 22-04-2015 12:22PM

hinault wrote: »

Those same souls want to be with the Devil.

Kinky!

But as long as it's all consensual, I suppose it's none of our business.

hinault · 22-04-2015 12:26PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But as long as it's all consensual, I suppose it's none of our business.

Yeah.

katydid · 22-04-2015 12:53PM

J C wrote: »

I don't just believe ... I know that both Eve and Lucy existed .. one was the mother of all Mankind ... and the other was ... an Ape.

... and exactly how does Christ's sacrifice help us to deal with the flaws of mankind (and our own flaws)?

We know Lucy existed. She was a predecessor of modern humans.

We don't know that Eve existed. She is a character in a creation story of a primitive tribal culture three thousand years ago. You are free to believe that she existed, but there is no proof.

You, a Christian, are asking me how Christ's sacrifice helps us to deal with the flaws of mankind? Seriously? You don't understand that by God becoming incarnate and suffering for us, and rising again, we were taught that we too can overcome the sin (=flaws) that is part of all of us.

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 01:30PM

looksee wrote: »

This is very precise information, could you give an explanation of how you have these facts available to you please?

It is a logical explanation in itself.

Given that athiest posters on here do not believe in Heaven or Hell, it is rather curious that they bother to object to the concept of souls suffering in Hell.

In fact... if athiests lack believe... why are they posting in a Christianity forum?

I don't believe in Taoism, I don't practise Taoism, or accupuncture.... and I don't post in those forums either!

silverharp · 22-04-2015 01:43PM

ABC101 wrote: »

It is a logical explanation in itself.

Given that athiest posters on here do not believe in Heaven or Hell, it is rather curious that they bother to object to the concept of souls suffering in Hell.

In fact... if athiests lack believe... why are they posting in a Christianity forum?

I don't believe in Taoism, I don't practise Taoism, or accupuncture.... and I don't post in those forums either!

In fairness Taoism isn't running most of the schools here or taking 1.5 hours out of my kids timetable and depending on the teacher is vulnerable to being evangelised to and which I have to pay for.

hinault · 22-04-2015 01:58PM

ABC101 wrote: »

It is a logical explanation in itself.

Given that athiest posters on here do not believe in Heaven or Hell, it is rather curious that they bother to object to the concept of souls suffering in Hell.

In fact... if athiests lack believe... why are they posting in a Christianity forum?

I don't believe in Taoism, I don't practise Taoism, or accupuncture.... and I don't post in those forums either!

You're right. The amount of time people waste asking questions about concepts in which they hold no belief, and concepts which they openly try to denigrate for believing in, is fascinating initially.

That fascination fades to boredom quickly though

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 02:21PM

silverharp wrote: »

In fairness Taoism isn't running most of the schools here or taking 1.5 hours out of my kids timetable and depending on the teacher is vulnerable to being evangelised to and which I have to pay for.

This country would have had zero education had it not been for various religious orders who set up schools over the last 200 years. When educating Irish children was a grave offence under penal times.

When the state was too poor to provide for education schools the religious orders stepped in and provided a service.

Terrible pity that some athiests will never recognise the enormous contribution religious orders have made to many previous generations of Irish people and to the Irish State in general.

Oh by the way... religious orders also ran numerous hospitals.... in fact nuns gave their entire lives (without monetary renumeration) to caring for the sick and poor. There was'nt 500 people waiting on trolleys then either!

You as an athiest... do you object to this too?

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 02:26PM

hinault wrote: »

You're right. The amount of time people waste asking questions about concepts in which they hold no belief, and concepts which they openly try to denigrate for believing in, is fascinating initially.

That fascination fades to boredom quickly though

You should have a look at the Athiest forum. The jokes about religion... I think it is called "The funny side of Religon Blasphemy free edition" or something like that.

They have spent thousands of hours mocking, ridiculing believers of faith, in particular Christianity, in fact especially Christianity.

There are lots of things I do not believe in.... Taoism being one.... and you won't find me posting insulting posts in a forum on Taoism.

looksee · 22-04-2015 02:27PM

Its not so much that I am concerned about the souls in hell idea - as you say, I don't believe in it, but you do, and I have asked you (courteously I think, or it could be passive aggressive, but assume its courteous for the sake of the argument) how you can be so confident of this precise set up. And what do you mean by 'its a logical explanation in itself?'

ABC101 · 22-04-2015 02:38PM

looksee wrote: »

Its not so much that I am concerned about the souls in hell idea - as you say, I don't believe in it, but you do, and I have asked you (courteously I think, or it could be passive aggressive, but assume its courteous for the sake of the argument) how you can be so confident of this precise set up. And what do you mean by 'its a logical explanation in itself?'

Athiest's don't seem interested in the many souls which are enjoying eternal happiness in paradise either.

As a Christian... I have read books about various Saints who have visited Hell, Heaven and Purgatory.

Not just one Saint, but numerous saints, however St Faustina Kowalska being one of the most recent.

What I mean by logical explanation?

Let me use an anlogy. Supposing you greatly disliked your neighbour, intensely disliked him.

However he was much stronger and more powerful than you. So direct confrontation between you and him was not an option.

However undercover of night... you would secretly do damage to his property, i.e. scratch the paintwork of his car for example.

So in effect .... you have not managed to hurt your neighbour directly, but you have managed to hurt him indirectly.

So it is the same in the spiritual world.

Is it not self explanatory.... that if one is to greatly hate / dislike a person... that it also extends to the achievments / property / items of creation of that person? Can you see that concept?

I am not referring to you personally here either.

silverharp · 22-04-2015 02:43PM

ABC101 wrote: »

This country would have had zero education had it not been for various religious orders who set up schools over the last 200 years. When educating Irish children was a grave offence under penal times.

When the state was too poor to provide for education schools the religious orders stepped in and provided a service.

Terrible pity that some athiests will never recognise the enormous contribution religious orders have made to many previous generations of Irish people and to the Irish State in general.

Oh by the way... religious orders also ran numerous hospitals.... in fact nuns gave their entire lives (without monetary renumeration) to caring for the sick and poor. There was'nt 500 people waiting on trolleys then either!

You as an athiest... do you object to this too?

Its history and it should have no bearing on how services are provided now . I've no idea how alternate histories would have worked out but society would have worked out something which could have built on instead of being left with something that needs to be dismantled. The goal of any religious outfit is indrocronation of the young so as to keep a perpetual hold on the society so none of these services were given without strings attached.

hinault · 22-04-2015 03:02PM

ABC101 wrote: »

You should have a look at the Athiest forum. The jokes about religion... I think it is called "The funny side of Religon Blasphemy free edition" or something like that.

They have spent thousands of hours mocking, ridiculing believers of faith, in particular Christianity, in fact especially Christianity.

There are lots of things I do not believe in.... Taoism being one.... and you won't find me posting insulting posts in a forum on Taoism.

They despise religion and they especially despise Catholicism, and to a slightly lesser extent, they despise Christianity.

The basis for their hatred of religion is anyone's guess.

Part of the hatred for some of them is that they do actually know that the supernatural is the truth. Knowing that they have to abide by supernatural rules while at the same time hating supernatural rules, is at the root of their own conflict.

For others societal groupthink is their nemesis. They were the ones who stood in the pews week in and week out up to the 1990's. Then when the zeitgeist changed, they changed. That's what societal groupthink does.

looksee · 22-04-2015 03:02PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Athiest's don't seem interested in the many souls which are enjoying eternal happiness in paradise either.

You were discussing hell, if you want to post about heaven I will ask the same question.

As a Christian... I have read books about various Saints who have visited Hell, Heaven and Purgatory.

Not just one Saint, but numerous saints, however St Faustina Kowalska being one of the most recent.

Don't you have to be dead to go to any of these places (I thought purgatory had been discontinued?) How did the author of these books know what the saints had experienced?

What I mean by logical explanation?

Let me use an anlogy. Supposing you greatly disliked your neighbour, intensely disliked him.

However he was much stronger and more powerful than you. So direct confrontation between you and him was not an option.

However undercover of night... you would secretly do damage to his property, i.e. scratch the paintwork of his car for example.

So in effect .... you have not managed to hurt your neighbour directly, but you have managed to hurt him indirectly.

So it is the same in the spiritual world.

Is it not self explanatory.... that if one is to greatly hate / dislike a person... that it also extends to the achievements / property / items of creation of that person? Can you see that concept?

Your analogy is about the devil and god, I gather? I can see the concept but I can't see that it proves anything, you have still not told me how you can be so certain that this is how things happen.

I am not referring to you personally here either.

orubiru · 22-04-2015 03:03PM

ABC101 wrote: »

You should have a look at the Athiest forum. The jokes about religion... I think it is called "The funny side of Religon Blasphemy free edition" or something like that.

They have spent thousands of hours mocking, ridiculing believers of faith, in particular Christianity, in fact especially Christianity.

There are lots of things I do not believe in.... Taoism being one.... and you won't find me posting insulting posts in a forum on Taoism.

So what?

Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to ridicule things that they see as absurd?

Why don't you believe in Taoism? Is there a specific thing that you see as just a bit too much to believe in?

orubiru · 22-04-2015 03:05PM

hinault wrote: »

They despise religion and they especially despise Catholicism, and to a slightly lesser extent, they despise Christianity.

The basis for their hatred of religion is anyone's guess.

You really can't think of any reason at all why people in Ireland might have hatred for the Catholic Church?

Go on, have a guess.

obplayer · 22-04-2015 03:07PM

hinault wrote: »

They despise religion and they especially despise Catholicism, and to a slightly lesser extent, they despise Christianity.

The basis for their hatred of religion is anyone's guess.

Part of the hatred for some of them is that they do actually know that the supernatural is the truth. Knowing that they have to abide by supernatural rules while at the same time hating supernatural rules, is at the root of their own conflict.

For others societal groupthink is their nemesis. They were the ones who stood in the pews week in and week out up to the 1990's. Then when the zeitgeist changed, they changed. That's what societal groupthink does.

Or perhaps the lessening grip of the Church and access to more information has allowed people to be able to think more clearly and see that the emperor is naked.

obplayer · 22-04-2015 03:11PM

ABC101 wrote: »

You should have a look at the Athiest forum. The jokes about religion... I think it is called "The funny side of Religon Blasphemy free edition" or something like that.

They have spent thousands of hours mocking, ridiculing believers of faith, in particular Christianity, in fact especially Christianity.

There are lots of things I do not believe in.... Taoism being one.... and you won't find me posting insulting posts in a forum on Taoism.

You are not surrounded by Taoists determined to have the laws of the country decided by Taoist rules and your children educated by dogmatic Taoists.
Also if you were surrounded by Taoists you would probably find their beliefs and rituals as absurd as I find yours.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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