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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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Comments

  • #4952
    folamh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?
    Is it fair to say that minorities in the American South in the sixties had it better than the slaves in the 18th and 19th centuries? Therefore, should any efforts have been made to improve the situation of the former category?


  • #4953
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    S.O wrote: »
    I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

    https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

    Funnily enough, a number of the leaders of the civil rights struggle in the US, including the likes of Bayard Rustin (openly gay organiser of the million man March), Caretta Scott King, Jesse Jackson have expressed the view that the campaign for marriage equality osnt comparable to the civil rights movement - it's a continuation of the same struggle.

    A struggle for equality means a struggle for equality for all. There aren't degrees of unequal.

    While some forms of oppression or discrimination may be more egregious than others, they all offend the principle that every citizen should be seen as equal.


  • #4954
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?
    Same sex marriage will allow same sex couples to get married.

    No need to get yourself bogged down in the perceived plight of homosexuals in Ireland today or of black people living in the US 50 years ago. Vote YES if you believe in equal rights, irrespective of whether they're for gays, blacks or your simply your friend who wants to marry their friend. Vote NO if you don't believe in equality.


  • #4955
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

    Is it fair to say that African Americans now do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during the Civil Rights movement?

    The people of Montgomery might have mixed views about that...

    Who had it worse - the people of Selma or the people of Soweto?
    Was it worse for unmarried mothers or women in abusive relationships in Ireland in the 1950?





    The only pertinent question is do ALL citizen enjoy exactly the same rights in Ireland.

    If the answer is no (which it is) as a minority group are denied equal status because they are a minority group (any kind of minority group) then it is discrimination which makes it a civil rights issue - not the who had/has it worse p*ssing contest you are trying to make it.


  • #4956
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    S.O wrote: »
    All depends on what privileges you argue about, if its against same sex couples being allowed marry and start a family by adoption or by AHR, then no I don,t see it as a civil rights issue, no more then being against allowing close relatives to marry is not a civil rights issue.

    One does not have to marry to start a family. I have a family. I even have grandchildren. I am not married.

    Gay people can and do adopt. Voting No will not change this.

    Incest reference - stay classy there dude.


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  • #4957
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    S.O wrote: »
    On the issue of surrogacy + AHR, I refer to ARTICLE 41/ 3 1 of the irish constitution.



    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/index.html#article41

    If a yes vote passes on May 22nd, what quoted above is open to interpretation to open the door for assisted human reproduction for same sex couples, as it says.



    But ARTICLE 41/ 3 1 is not saying on how a family can or cannot be founded that is why it is open to interpretation.

    The issue on surrogacy exists for gay and straight people so it doesn't relate in the slightest to this particular referendum. Unless you wish to bring fertility tests into entering a marriage...... You also appear to forget this happened.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/health-minister-leo-varadkar-commercial-surrogacy-will-be-banned-in-ireland-under-new-law-31020930.html

    This referendum will not affect anything relating to surrogacy.


  • #4958
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    One does not have to marry to start a family. I have a family. I even have grandchildren. I am not married.

    Gay people can and do adopt. Voting No will not change this.

    Incest reference - stay classy there dude.

    I know one doesn,t have to marry to start a family, IM nit arguing that.

    On the issue of same sex adoption, read in the Irish times a legal challenge is being prepared in the case of a no vote.
    He confirmed the group is considering taking a legal challenge against provisions in the Children and Family Relationships
    Act     in the event of a No vote.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mothers-and-fathers-matter-launches-no-referendum-campaign-1.2179575

    Coming back the to people arguing its a civil rights issue, take this case from Germany.

    A German brother and sister are challenging the law so that they can continue
    their relationship free from the threat of imprisonment. Stübing, an unemployed locksmith, and his sister Susan have had four
    children together since starting a sexual relationship in 2000. Three of the
    children are in foster care, and two have unspecified disabilities.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/27/germany.kateconnolly

    For people that see same sex marriage as a civil rights issue, is this case I refer also a civil rights issue ?


  • #4959
    crestglan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭crestglan


    Yes all the way for me


  • #4960
    Christy Anity
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ✭Christy Anity


    I will be voting YES so that someday i can stand in front of my family and friends amd marry the woman i love, secure in the knowledge that in the eyes of the state, my marriage will be as valued and equal as anyone elses.
    The only thing that will change with a YES vote, is that my relationship amd the love within it will have equal standing within the law. It will also show our young LGBT people that they are supported by their people amd country, and hopefully discrimination and suicide within that group will begin to decrease.
    For all those voting NO for religious reasons, I hope you cant stand infront of God someday and explain why you directly ignored his fundamental teachings of 'love thy neighbour', 'do on to others as you would have them do to you' and ' Dear friends, let us love one another,for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.'
    All I have done is fall in love with a woman, and I dont believe my God condemn me for that.


  • #4961
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    S.O wrote: »
    I know one doesn,t have to marry to start a family, IM nit arguing that.

    On the issue of same sex adoption, read in the Irish times a legal challenge is being prepared in the case of a no vote.

    On what basis?

    Gay people can already adopt. They have been able to do so for decades. That horse has bolted long time. The Children and Family Relationship Bill states that people in a Civil Partnership will be able to adopt as a couple. All of this is a matter of legislation and unless it can be proven to be unconstitutional in and of itself there are no grounds for a legal challenge. The results of the Referendum have no baring on any of this whatsoever.

    As for 'preparing a case' as if this is huge...I could prepare a case against the Blasphemy Law but I would lose as technically it is not unconstitutional.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mothers-and-fathers-matter-launches-no-referendum-campaign-1.2179575
    Coming back the to people arguing its a civil rights issue, take this case from Germany.



    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/27/germany.kateconnolly

    For people that see same sex marriage as a civil rights issue, is this case I refer also a civil rights issue ?

    Still with the incest eh. You just get classier by the second don't you.

    What on earth does a man and his sister having a heterosexual sexual relationship in Germany have to do with same-sex couples getting married in Ireland?


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  • #4962
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,453 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    On what basis?

    Gay people can already adopt. They have been able to do so for decades. That horse has bolted long time. The Children and Family Relationship Bill states that people in a Civil Partnership will be able to adopt as a couple. All of this is a matter of legislation and unless it can be proven to be unconstitutional in and of itself there are no grounds for a legal challenge. The results of the Referendum have no baring on any of this whatsoever.

    As for 'preparing a case' as if this is huge...I could prepare a case against the Blasphemy Law but I would lose as technically it is not unconstitutional.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mothers-and-fathers-matter-launches-no-referendum-campaign-1.2179575



    Still with the incest eh. You just get classier by the second don't you.

    What on earth does a man and his sister having a heterosexual sexual relationship in Germany have to do with same-sex couples getting married in Ireland?

    What's the point? :rolleyes:

    Some posters are best ignored from post 1 on this topic...


  • #4963
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    -

    What on earth does a man and his sister having a heterosexual sexual relationship in Germany have to do with same-sex couples getting married in Ireland?

    To those who argue the civil right point of view for same sex marriage, Im referring to this case in Germany, playing devils advocate asking how many would also view that case as a civil rights issue also.


  • #4964
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,453 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    S.O wrote: »
    To those who argue the civil right point of view for same sex marriage, Im referring to this case in Germany, playing devils advocate asking how many would also view that case as a civil rights issue also.

    Your playing all right, but it's not as devils advocate.

    You do know what the phrase 'devils advocate' means, don't you...?


  • #4965
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    S.O wrote: »
    To those who argue the civil right point of view for same sex marriage, Im referring to this case in Germany, playing devils advocate asking how many would also view that case as a civil rights issue also.

    Neither this thread nor this referendum are about incest.


  • #4966
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?
    No, it's not fair due to the comparison you are making between the mid 20th century and 2015.

    In a similar time frame to the Civil Rights movement, the likes of Alan Turing who invented the computer were prosecuted for homosexuality and often chemically castrated. Two years after this appalling event happened to Alan Turing, he committed suicide.

    These days, our laws have changed but not adequately. Let's get this right - that was only in the 1950's. 64 years on and gay people are still not equal in our country. Shame on us if this doesn't pass.


  • #4967
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

    On a community level yes it is fair. Thank you though for acknowledging that the LGBT community in Ireland 2015 do indeed suffer inequality and injustice... which surely is the substantive issue.


  • #4968
    Cuban Pete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Cuban Pete


    I see one of the No side's new posters is saying kids deserve to be with their biological mother "for life, not just for nine months". Since they're against surrogacy on such grounds, can we also expect to see them campaigning against adoption of all types?

    Since kids deserve to be with their biological mothers, after all.

    I'd say someone should tell them to come back to reality (or someone should tell the government that the referendum they're running is actually about surrogacy) but I like to think this'll just demonstrate the kind of loopers these people are.


  • #4969
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Cuban Pete wrote: »
    I see one of the No side's new posters is saying kids deserve to be with their biological mother "for life, not just for nine months". Since they're against surrogacy on such grounds, can we also expect to see them campaigning against adoption of all types?

    Since kids deserve to be with their biological mothers, after all.

    I'd say someone should tell them to come back to reality (or someone should tell the government that the referendum they're running is actually about surrogacy) but I like to think this'll just demonstrate the kind of loopers these people are.

    What if their biological mother is gay? The PR gymnastics they do in the futile attempt to make the homophobia smokescreen more opaque is becoming rather amusing.

    Are the 'kids deserve to be with their mothers for life not just for 9 months' crowd by any chance a similar ilk to those who would have thrown the biological mother in a workhouse and stolen the child a few decades ago? Amazing how much things have changed isn't it!


  • #4970
    Shanotheslayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,191 ✭✭✭✭Shanotheslayer


    I heard that if the YES vote goes a head apparently future birthcerts will say Guardian not Mother/Father is this true? Just curious.


  • #4971
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,158 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    What if their biological mother is gay? The PR gymnastics they do in the futile attempt to make the homophobia smokescreen more opaque is becoming rather amusing.

    Are the 'kids deserve to be with their mothers for life not just for 9 months' crowd by any chance a similar ilk to those who would have thrown the biological mother in a workhouse and stolen the child a few decades ago? Amazing how much things have changed isn't it!

    I wish I could thank this post more than once.


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  • #4972
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    The PR gymnastics they do in the futile attempt to make the homophobia smokescreen more opaque is becoming rather amusing.

    So true. What we need is comedy movement 'i'm not homophobic but'... to play off the 'not racist but' thing. Tara Flynn could do a solid weeks worth of videos.


  • #4973
    DeVore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Its funny how the No side are arguing that Gay Marriage => Gay Adoption in order to convince people to vote against SSM, when (if the ref is passed) they will then immediately argue the reverse.

    The posters that went up today are the modern version of "Hello Divorce, Goodbye Daddy".


  • #4974
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Shanotheslayer wrote: »
    I heard that if the YES vote goes a head apparently future birthcerts will say Guardian not Mother/Father is this true? Just curious.

    Heard that suggestion on the radio the other day and it was roundly trashed for the tripe it would be. Mother/father, father/father and mother/mother will be used presumably. I have no proof that this is the case though, just heard it on Pat Kenny or somewhere.


  • #4975
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Shrap wrote: »
    Heard that suggestion on the radio the other day and it was roundly trashed for the tripe it would be. Mother/father, father/father and mother/mother will be used presumably. I have no proof that this is the case though, just heard it on Pat Kenny or somewhere.

    Would this not fall more so to the Children and Family Relationship Bill and the people behind that to decide, as opposed to SSM and this referendum though?


  • #4976
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,453 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Shrap wrote: »
    Heard that suggestion on the radio the other day and it was roundly trashed for the tripe it would be. Mother/father, father/father and mother/mother will be used presumably. I have no proof that this is the case though, just heard it on Pat Kenny or somewhere.

    French registrar will ask each parent how they want to be identified vis a vis parental title.

    Good system. Works. Nobody exploded. World kept turning.


  • #4977
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Would this not fall more so to the Children and Family Relationship Bill and the people behind that to decide, as opposed to SSM and this referendum though?

    Ha, yes. Well spotted. I fell for that one hook, line, etc. with the "if the yes vote passes...". Nothing to do with the yes vote at all, doh! :o
    endacl wrote: »
    French registrar will ask each parent how they want to be identified vis a vis parental title.

    Good system. Works. Nobody exploded. World kept turning.

    Sounds legit. Pity we can't just pick what to be called anyway. I'd go for "County Clare Cabs...Secure Taxi Service delivering teenagers to your door. All areas covered between Galway and Limerick". Catchy, no?


  • #4978
    Shanotheslayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,191 ✭✭✭✭Shanotheslayer


    Shrap wrote: »
    Heard that suggestion on the radio the other day and it was roundly trashed for the tripe it would be. Mother/father, father/father and mother/mother will be used presumably. I have no proof that this is the case though, just heard it on Pat Kenny or somewhere.

    So there's no proof of them actually saying ''Well it's going to be Guardian?''


  • #4979
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,453 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?
    O.K. I'm going to type really slowly for you now. Let me know if I'm going too fast. :)

    They suffer a level of inequality and injustice.

    That's enough. What don't you get about that?


  • #4980
    StewartGriffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    endacl wrote: »
    O.K. I'm going to type really slowly for you now. Let me know if I'm going too fast. :)

    This type of snide comment really stinks.


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  • #4981
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    Shanotheslayer wrote: »
    I heard that if the YES vote goes a head apparently future birthcerts will say Guardian not Mother/Father is this true?

    The change in constitution will not require the birth certs to be changed.

    However, for other reasons it is possible that guardians may added to the birth cert.


This discussion has been closed.
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