How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

ohnonotgmail

S.O wrote: »

I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

and what exactly is your point?

endacl

haveringchick wrote: »

It's hardly Selma either though is it?

No. Its not. So?

Look. In some regards here are really no degrees of inequality. Unequal is an absolute state, in many regards. There is either equality, or there is not. It behoves us as a society to strive towards the ideal of equality, in all instances.

Its not Selma. Neither is it the Bogside, the Orange Revolution, or Ghandi's non-cooperation. In the grand scheme, yes, this isn't globally a big deal (Although it could be argued that Selma really wasn't either. It just happened in a big place, with lots of TVs). To the individuals affected though, it is indeed a big deal. To me, its a big deal, because I want the society I live in and contribute towards to be one that strives for big deals.

There is a knock-on effect to consider also. Selma has a direct linear connection, in the evolution of forward thinking western society, to the fall of the apartheid regime in South Africa. As regards our acceptance here in the west (with the exception, of course, of a minority, and I choose my words carefully here, of utter ar5eholes) of the essential normality and unremarkableness of homosexuality, there is also a knock on effect to consider. While the worst that my gay friends and family here, in the normal course of events here, will have to endure might be some mouth-breathing wanker refusing to bake them a cake, there are countries still that would hang burning tyres around their necks, throw them from buildings, or hang them from cranes. Now, that's not going to change because Ireland recognizes all citizens as equal under the law, but its a small step in the right direction, and as an evolving society and culture we owe that much to everyone, gay, straight, or otherwise.

Its not Selma, but its important. Because it affects people. Normal, loveable people who we all know.

S.O

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and what exactly is your point?

I was replying to another poster, who was equating the struggle for civil rights to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

ohnonotgmail

S.O wrote: »

I was replying to another poster, who was equating the struggle for civil rights to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

the only comparison that was made was that both were a fight for equality. which is pretty hard to argue with. but please do try.

Zillah

S.O wrote: »

I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

Women weren't being beaten in the street when they were fighting for the right to vote, does that mean we should demean them and their struggle?

Not that it matters, you don't seem to have a point to make beyond being vaguely contrary.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

S.O wrote: »

Don,t you just how yes campaigners are so confident in their arguments that need to resort to tearing down no campaign posters, spotted this from twitter .

https://twitter.com/i_am_ammo/status/590268610741952512

Does anyone know if its an offence to vandalise or tear down posters during a referendum campaign ?

How do you feel about the pro-equality murals being defaced?

StewartGriffin

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I was referring to several posts implying that this campaign is on a level with the Suffragettes

S.O wrote: »

I was replying to another poster, who was equating the struggle for civil rights to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

That comparison is often made. But it is rarely a comparison of the two movements. Rather it is a comparison of the arguments used against both movements - which are almost identical.

For example back when Loving was taken to trial for marrying a member of another "race" - people were saying they should have the same rights as anyone else to marry.

The reply at the time was "They have the same rights as everyone else already - they have the right to marry someone of their own race!".

Now compare that to a response we have seen a few times on this thread. When someone says that gays should have the same right to marry as everyone else - we hear people say "They have the same rights as everyone else already - they have the right to marry someone of the opposive sex!"

Then there is arguments about redefining marriage itself to accommodate the change. There are parallels there too.

So there is SOME level of comparison to be made without pause or embarrassment when we see such arguments presented. Clearly those arguments failed utterly then. It is worth pointing out there is no reason for them to do anything but fail utterly now.

Anyway - nothing important - just a small highlight that there are two groups. Those that actually directly compare the two movements - and those that are making the comparison only to highlight the arguments used during the two movements.

The latter in my opinion is entirely sound. The former - well I would not do it myself so I will leave arguing whether it is sound or not to others.

endacl

S.O wrote: »

Does anyone know if its an offence to vandalise or tear down posters during a referendum campaign ?

No. Interestingly enough though, it's often an offence to put them up. Wish that particular by-law was enforced more often...

ohnonotgmail

endacl wrote: »

No. Interestingly enough though, it's often an offence to put them up. Wish that particular by-law was enforced more often...

It is not an offence to put up posters for either side in the referendum. It is an offence to not take them down within 7 days of the referendum.

S.O

Ricardo Jealous Mimicry wrote: »

How do you feel about the pro-equality murals being defaced?

I equally condemn it.

freshpopcorn

S.O wrote: »

I checked a few of the yes to equality campaign pages on social media earlier, I can,t find any of them condemn the removal of posters so far,

Colm o Gorman.

Daith

S.O wrote: »

I equally condemn it.

Do you equally condemn the No side making up stats from the US Dept of Health?

Do you equally condemn the fact they are bringing surrogacy into a debate depsite knowing it has nothing to do with it?

pl4ichjgy17zwd

S.O wrote: »

I equally condemn it.

And have you seen the no side equally condemn it?

endacl

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is not an offence to put up posters for either side in the referendum. It is an offence to not take them down within 7 days of the referendum.

It depends on what is on the poster, how it is displayed, and where it is displayed. They also must display the names of both printer and publisher.

ohnonotgmail

endacl wrote: »

It depends on what is on the poster, how it is displayed, and where it is displayed. They also must display the names of both printer and publisher.

sure there are some rules that must be obeyed but of itself putting up a referendum poster is not an offence. Though i'm not sure what you think is covered by "what is on the poster" apart from obscenities

aloyisious

S.O wrote: »

I was replying to another poster, who was equating the struggle for civil rights to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

Am I right in my reading from your post above that you don't think the denial to LGBT people of the same access to Civil Marriage that straight couples have under Irish Constitutional Law, and on the same basis - that of a loving relationship - is NOT a civil rights issue?

Please don't make reference to the "they can, if they marry some-one of the opposite sex" excuse when that clearly ignores the "love between partners" piece and the fact that one would be entering a false marriage in which the LGBT partner would have to be dishonest from the start, whatever about making a false declaration in a state document, the HSE Marriage Registration Form.

The state regarded marriages between gay men and straight women as null from the start, according to one friend who entered such a marriage and when he came out, was told during court proceedings that his marriage never existed legally from the start.

Daith

aloyisious wrote: »

Am I right in my reading from your post above that you don't think the denial to LGBT people of the same access to Civil Marriage that straight couples have under Irish Constitutional Law is NOT a civil rights issue?

It's also worth remembering that civil rights for gay people has been ongoing for decades.

Gay people couldn't even hold hands in the street prior to 1993 yet I have people telling me they shouldn't change a document written in the 1930s?

aloyisious

Daith wrote: »

It's also worth remembering that civil rights for gay people has been ongoing for decades.

Gay people couldn't even hold hands in the street prior to 1993 yet I have people telling me they shouldn't change a document written in the 1930s?

Lol, not much has changed from what some people think. A poster said that PDA's by people (gay or straight) was not acceptable.

Ave Sodalis

I have absolutely no problem with the No side putting up posters. However, I have a massive problem with lies and the No sides attempt to undermine this referendum with lies. I do not believe either side of a referendum should be allowed to publicly display lies in order to gather votes.

Bannasidhe

S.O wrote: »

I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

Perhaps Australians against Gay Marriage should sort out their own internal Civil Rights issues before commenting on what is or isn't like the 1960s.

Tell me - is the denial of special privileges to a minority because they are a minority a civil rights issue in your opinion?

Yes or No.

Bannasidhe

sup_dude wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with the No side putting up posters. However, I have a massive problem with lies and the No sides attempt to undermine this referendum with lies. I do not believe either side of a referendum should be allowed to publicly display lies in order to gather votes.

One may complain about misleading posters - from either side - using this handy on-line form http://refcom.ie/en/contact-us/contact-form/

Ave Sodalis

Bannasidhe wrote: »

One may complain about misleading posters - from either side - using this handy on-line form http://refcom.ie/en/contact-us/contact-form/

There were leaflets handed out with a link to them a few pages back, does that link deal with them too?

haveringchick

OldNotWIse wrote: »

No.


What's your point?

Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

floggg

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

It depends on how you look at it really. Discrimination against gay people at this moment in time is less than the situations it is being compared to, but the end goal is absolutely comparable.

If you think the struggle started when the referendum was announced you'd be gravely mistaken.

Bannasidhe

sup_dude wrote: »

There were leaflets handed out with a link to them a few pages back, does that link deal with them too?

That's the info that was passed on to me.

eviltwin

haveringchick wrote: »

Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

Is it a competition now? Does it really matter what group has it worse? The fact is both groups could have it better and we have a duty to do what we can to make that happen. Vote YES.

S.O

Daith wrote: »

Do you equally condemn the No side making up stats from the US Dept of Health?

Do you equally condemn the fact they are bringing surrogacy into a debate depsite knowing it has nothing to do with it?

On the issue of surrogacy + AHR, I refer to ARTICLE 41/ 3 1 of the irish constitution.

The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution
of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to
protect it against attack.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/index.html#article41

If a yes vote passes on May 22nd, what quoted above is open to interpretation to open the door for assisted human reproduction for same sex couples, as it says.

the Family is founded,

But ARTICLE 41/ 3 1 is not saying on how a family can or cannot be founded that is why it is open to interpretation.

S.O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps Australians against Gay Marriage should sort out their own internal Civil Rights issues before commenting on what is or isn't like the 1960s.

Tell me - is the denial of special privileges to a minority because they are a minority a civil rights issue in your opinion?

Yes or No.

All depends on what privileges you argue about, if its against same sex couples being allowed marry and start a family by adoption or by AHR, then no I don,t see it as a civil rights issue, no more then being against allowing close relatives to marry is not a civil rights issue.

S.O

Zillah wrote: »

Women weren't being beaten in the street when they were fighting for the right to vote, does that mean we should demean them and their struggle?

Not that it matters, you don't seem to have a point to make beyond being vaguely contrary.

Comparing women fighting for right to vote to the fight for same sex marriage is not the same thing in my view.

aloyisious

haveringchick wrote: »

Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

It may have been of a lesser intensity (no place of entertainment bombings - here anyway by hate-filled people) but Irish LGBT people were certainly attacked regularly by other hate-filled Irish people, plus (as Paddy Mannings of the NO Side said about being lured by a Garda for arrest purposes) arrest and harrassment by the Gardai. The Irish LGBT civil rights movement did not begin until an Irish gay man was murdered in Fairview Park by homophobic teenage boys. These types of attack are still happening in our cities and towns here, and it's not just males attacking and baiting LGBT folk here in Ireland.